Does God make mistakes?

[oak]

 

The discussion between Butero and other one, escapes me. As an example, "...[Love] does not insist on its own way." 1 Cor. 14:5 This as well as many other scriptural truths open up the premise that God allows His creations free will and choice. It is remarkable to have a Perfect Entity allowing its creations to not follow the true path. So, Satan was able to go against God not by God's directive but by his own choice. The same applies to us, and we can say God is not good for allowing us this freedom and not conforming us to His will by force. Ultimately God is perfect and all knowing, and people like Hitler choose to serve their own will - do you fault God for free will?

 

Finally and most importantly, Christ was crucified by the world (and resurrected) so those who believe on Him may live. What more do you want God to give? Yes there are people who can't accept a God that gives the ultimate sacrifice without earthly glory and riches. The world was and is waiting for an Alexander The Great type to come and that horror will come. In the midst of confusion and questioning, one should look upon the Cross. This should answer questions like, is God bizarrely evil or does He make mistakes etc.    

I am going to try to explain this as simple as I can so hopefully you can see where I am coming from.  Lets start out with agreement.  Lucifer and all the angels and all mankind has free will.  We choose to follow God or to rebel.  At the same time, do you agree that God is all knowing, and can see into the future?  Do you agree that God knows what choices his creation will make?  If he does, and he goes ahead and makes them anyway, God being the potter and us being the clay, and he creates someone knowing they will do evil and wind up in hell, since they are created the way God made them, did they really have free will?  They made the choices, but they were created by someone in a way where they would make the choices they made. 

 

Where we find ourselves disagreeing is over whether or not God is truly all knowing?  When God created Lucifer, did he know he would rebel down the road?  Did God create men like Judas Iscariot, knowing he would betray Jesus?  Did God create good men, like John the Baptist, knowing he would point people to Jesus?  They all had free will in the sense they made the decisions they did, like Judas with the 30 pieces of silver, but since God created Judas, knowing what he would do, and the Bible even prophesies about the 30 pieces of silver, did he really have free will, or was he really created for the purpose of being the betrayer? 

 

Those who believe in absolute free will believe that God would not create anyone to do evil, and even spend eternity in hell, so he is taken by surprise when his creation does wrong.  That doesn't make sense to me, when you can find examples of a person being told exactly what he is going to do, like Peter denying Jesus 3 times.  In one way, Peter had free will and chose to do that, but if his creator knew all along what he would do, because he made him in a way where he would react in a certain manner, what free will did he really have?  Free will is really an illusion in that sense.  If I believe and trust in God, I can only do so because I was created with faith to believe, as opposed to the good moral person who lacks that faith and doesn't believe there is a creator.  I know someone like that.  She is a good moral person who just doesn't believe.  Why?  Does she just choose not to believe, or was she created without faith, knowing this will lead to eternal torment in hell? 

 

This is a tough subject, but it is important.  You either believe in a God who isn't all knowing and isn't all powerful who just makes things and hopes for the best, and is taken by surprise when there is a bad outcome, or you believe in a God who is all knowing and all powerful, and his creation is doing as he designed it would do in all areas.  I choose the latter.  I am very much interested in your further thoughts on this subject Oak. 

 

Butero, you know I care deeply for you, so I will tread carefully. 

I read your ongoing debate on "Did God create Lucifer (evil)," so there is a lot there that clarifies your point or stance. I agree with you that God is all seeing but I believe God is Holy and Perfect. And your way of looking at this is, God is Holy and Perfect but he wills and desires evil to suit His purposes. This I can't believe. Further, with your way of thinking what need do we have of a Final Judgment? Can Judas say, "You made me this way, so I did your will for me and maybe I deserve a little bit more credit for falling in line with your Great Design?" If your reasoning is to be followed this is a possibility. I am well aware of the epistle of God making pottery of his own choosing and who are we to talk back? This scripture does pose difficulty but I feel there's a lot more to this since the statement alone can

suffice for the whole Bible. Why does the Bible go into great detail regarding our behavior? In this instance I feel it's instructional for our salvation in terms of fear and accepting the unknown. If not it is totally discouraging.

 

Also, I don't believe in your premise of God being all powerful or it's just a matter of surprises. If God is all powerful why would He go through the effort of making Satan, an angel of light? God certainly would go directly to creating an adversary. And with difficult questions I believe a person should ponder the Cross. Within a question I wrote a terrible thought. Just ask Christ anything, and I believe in time it will be answered for you. (updated)

 

Yours in Christ,

 

Oak    

 

Further     

[Guest]

Long Suffering

 

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9

 

~

 

The discussion between Butero and other one, escapes me. 

 

As an example, "...[Love] does not insist on its own way." 1 Cor. 14:5

 

This as well as many other scriptural truths 

 

open up the premise that God allows His creations free will and choice. 

 

It is remarkable to have a Perfect Entity allowing its creations to not follow the true path. 

 

So, Satan was able to go against God not by God's directive but by his own choice.

 

The same applies to us, and we can say God is not good for allowing us this freedom and not conforming us to His will by force.

 

Ultimately God is perfect and all knowing, and people like Hitler choose to serve their own will - do you fault God for free will?

 

Finally and most importantly, Christ was crucified by the world (and resurrected) so those who believe on Him may live.

 

What more do you want God to give?

 

Yes there are people who can't accept a God that gives the ultimate sacrifice without earthly glory and riches.

 

The world was and is waiting for an Alexander The Great type to come and that horror will come.

 

In the midst of confusion and questioning, one should look upon the Cross. 

 

This should answer questions like, is God bizarrely evil or does He make mistakes etc.    

 

I am going to try to explain this as simple as I can so hopefully you can see where I am coming from. 

 

Lets start out with agreement. 

 

Lucifer and all the angels and all mankind has free will. 

 

We choose to follow God or to rebel. 

 

At the same time, do you agree that God is all knowing, and can see into the future? 

 

Do you agree that God knows what choices his creation will make? 

 

If he does, and he goes ahead and makes them anyway,

 

God being the potter and us being the clay, and he creates someone knowing they will do evil and wind up in hell,

 

since they are created the way God made them,

 

did they really have free will? 

 

They made the choices, but they were created by someone in a way where they would make the choices they made. 

 

Where we find ourselves disagreeing is over whether or not God is truly all knowing? 

 

When God created Lucifer, did he know he would rebel down the road? 

 

Did God create men like Judas Iscariot, knowing he would betray Jesus? 

 

Did God create good men, like John the Baptist, knowing he would point people to Jesus? 

 

They all had free will in the sense they made the decisions they did, like Judas with the 30 pieces of silver,

 

but since God created Judas,

 

knowing what he would do, and the Bible even prophesies about the 30 pieces of silver,

 

did he really have free will, or was he really created for the purpose of being the betrayer? 

 

Those who believe in absolute free will believe that God would not create anyone to do evil,

 

and even spend eternity in hell,

 

so he is taken by surprise when his creation does wrong. 

 

That doesn't make sense to me,

 

when you can find examples of a person being told exactly what he is going to do,

 

like Peter denying Jesus 3 times. 

 

In one way, Peter had free will and chose to do that,

 

but if his creator knew all along what he would do,

 

because he made him in a way where he would react in a certain manner,

 

what free will did he really have? 

 

Free will is really an illusion in that sense. 

 

If I believe and trust in God,

 

I can only do so because I was created with faith to believe,

 

as opposed to the good moral person who lacks that faith

 

and doesn't believe there is a creator. 

 

I know someone like that. 

 

She is a good moral person who just doesn't believe. 

 

Why? 

 

Does she just choose not to believe,

 

or was she created without faith,

 

knowing this will lead to eternal torment in hell? 

 

This is a tough subject, but it is important. 

 

You either believe in a God who isn't all knowing

 

and isn't all powerful

 

who just makes things

 

and hopes for the best,

 

and is taken by surprise when there is a bad outcome,

 

or you believe in a God who is all knowing and all powerful,

 

and his creation is doing as he designed it would do in all areas. 

 

I choose the latter. 

 

I am very much interested in your further thoughts on this subject Oak. 

 

Butero, you know I care deeply for you, so I will tread carefully. 

 

I read your ongoing debate on "Did God create Lucifer (evil)," so there is a lot there that clarifies your point or stance.

 

I agree with you that God is all seeing

 

but

 

I believe God is Holy and Perfect.

 

And your way of looking at this is,

 

God is Holy and Perfect

 

but he wills and desires evil to suit His purposes.

 

This I can't believe.

 

Further, with your way of thinking what need do we have of a Final Judgment?

 

Can Judas say,

 

"You made me this way,

 

so I did your will for me

 

and maybe I deserve a little bit more credit for falling in line with your Great Design?" 

 

If your reasoning is to be followed this is a possibility. 

 

I am well aware of the epistle of God making pottery of his own choosing

 

and who are we to talk back?

 

This scripture does pose difficulty

 

but

 

I feel there's a lot more to this

 

since the statement alone can suffice for the whole Bible. 

 

Why does the Bible go into great detail regarding our behavior?

 

In this instance I feel it's instructional for our salvation

 

in terms of fear and accepting the unknown.

 

If not it is totally discouraging.

 

Also, I don't believe

 

in your premise of God being all powerful or it's just a matter of surprises.

 

If God is all powerful

 

why would He go through the effort of making Satan, an angel of light?

 

God certainly would go directly to creating an adversary. 

 

And with difficult questions

 

I believe a person should ponder the Cross. 

 

Would you come to Christ at that point

 

and say, "this all has been arranged as you planned?" 

 

Yours in Christ,

 

Oak    

 

Further     

 

 

Beloved It Is So Simple

 

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. James 1:17

 

God Never Changes

 

For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. Malachi 3:6

 

For Though

 

But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death. Proverbs 8:36

 

Men Sin

 

Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. Isaiah 1:18

 

He Loves

 

This I recall to my mind, therefore have I hope.

 

It is of the LORD's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.

 

They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness.

 

The LORD is my portion, saith my soul; therefore will I hope in him. Lamentations 3:21-24

 

And Reveals Himself

 

In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.

 

Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.

 

And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. Isaiah 6:1-3

 

Kadosh Kadosh Kadosh

 

Jesus My Love

[Guest]

The question is not about "what" saves a person, but "when"....

 

 

Now

 

But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

 

Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,

 

Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: Hebrew 3:6-8

 

Is The

 

Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. John 5:25

 

Time

 

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

 

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life:

 

and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life;

 

but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:35-36

 

So Believe

 

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,

 

that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

 

And Be Blessed

 

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

 

He that believeth on him is not condemned:

 

but he that believeth not is condemned already,

 

because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:17-18

 

Beloved

[Fez]

No, perfection cannot make mistakes.

[other one]

 

 

 

 

 

Butero,  I know many people today who will not turn themselves over to Jesus' lordship because of what you teach......

To whom will they go?  Jesus has the only way to eternal life. 

 

BTW, who taught them this doctrine?  When I was a sinner, I never heard any deep doctrinal stuff like this.  I just knew there was a God, and the Bible was the Word of God.  How many people do you actually know like that, and who taught them? 

 

at least ten off the top of my head and they all come from families who were active in the church.....     My brother in law studied for several years before he decided that the bible couldn't be reality if God is what people say the Bible says he is.   And he's not dumb, he has different degrees and was a successful junior high history teacher for over 20 years before he and my sister retired...  My own sister feels the same way he does and she grew up in the church....

 

It matters a great deal to me...

 

What you are telling me is that God made Satan to rebel and take a third of the angels and then created man who would become so totally corrupt that he would have to kill all but eight, then out of that 8 would build a nation through one of Noah's decedents that would also become so corrupt that he wants to kill all them and finally let the world get to the point that those here were about to kill everything with the help of the devil.

 

Resulting in billions of deaths, and billions of people going to hell to be tormented for eternity along with this entity he created in the first place.......   and knowing up front that it would be that way.......   are you really telling me that is our God???

 

Yes, because the alternative is harder for me to accept.  I cannot accept the notion that God is anything less than 100 percent perfect.  He cannot make mistakes.  Here is how I see it.  You know people that believe that if God is a certain way, he cannot be real?  Why?  In theory, couldn't the creator be anything?  Why would he have to be loving?  I never understood that logic.  He is who he is.  People try to fashion him into something they desire him to be.  God could be mean and vicious and still be the creator.  I am not saying he is that way, but just making a point.  I can understand people saying they won't serve a God that does this or does that, but to say that if God isn't the way they imagine him, he can't be real is not logical to me. 

 

Who does the Bible say that God is?There are tons of scripture on what is God like.Have you read them?

 

I have read the Bible through from Genesis to Revelation a minimum of 15 times.  I have seen how God is in scripture, and he has many different characteristics.  I have seen a loving side, and I have seen a side of vengeance and judgment. 

 

 

But you are saying that he made the folks he's taking vengeance on just for that purpose....     

[alien224]

Never. He has a divine plan for everything.

[Guest Butero]

Under the Old Covenant, people were saved because they trusted God, kept the law, and looked forward to a time when the Savior would come to earth and die for their sins.  Under the New Covenant, we know who the Savior is, Jesus Christ, and we are saved as a result of faith in him.  As such, the patriarchs, and kings that you were speaking of ConnerLiamBrown, are saved because they kept the law by faith, but nobody during this time period will be saved unless they are trusting Christ Jesus in this life.  No, they will not have an opportunity to get saved after death. 

[Guest Butero]

To Other One, I know exactly what I am saying.  To Oak, thanks for your response.  I respect your opinion, and that is why I asked your position.  For the time being, I guess we will have to agree to disagree, and I do believe that God is capable of showing us the truth about anything if we ask him for it.  I also believe it is possible to believe something and be wrong.  It may turn out that every one of us in this thread are only correct in part.  Since none of us were with God at the time of creation, all we can do is look to scripture and based on our knowledge, reason out what we believe to be true. 

 

Sorry I didn't use the quote function.  For some reason, when I use a computer that is running Windows 8, the quote function doesn't work, but when I use a computer with Windows 7, Vista or XP, it does work.  I am not sure why that is. 

[a-seeker]

Under the Old Covenant, people were saved because they trusted God, kept the law, and looked forward to a time when the Savior would come to earth and die for their sins.  Under the New Covenant, we know who the Savior is, Jesus Christ, and we are saved as a result of faith in him.  As such, the patriarchs, and kings that you were speaking of ConnerLiamBrown, are saved because they kept the law by faith, but nobody during this time period will be saved unless they are trusting Christ Jesus in this life.  No, they will not have an opportunity to get saved after death. 

 

 

 

We need to examine the nature—even the mechanics—of what it means to “be saved”.  Salvation is from the sin within us; it is obtained by participation in the death and life of Jesus.  EVERYONE admitted into heaven must participate in this mystical union, including the patriarchs.  There is no other way to be saved.  To say that people of the O.C. were saved by trusting God means that the sin within them was purged by that trust, apart from Christ.  To say that they kept the Law is to say that they kept it perfectly, or well enough (merited salvation).  If that were possible, then there would be no reason for Christ—God does not change His mind in the Bible.  It always was Christ that saved and always will be.   But if that is the case, how should the patriarchs come to know Christ?  

 

I am not sure from where in Scripture you derive this enormous negative with such confidence:

 

No, they will not have an opportunity to get saved after death. 

 

 

 

clb

[Guest Butero]

 

Under the Old Covenant, people were saved because they trusted God, kept the law, and looked forward to a time when the Savior would come to earth and die for their sins.  Under the New Covenant, we know who the Savior is, Jesus Christ, and we are saved as a result of faith in him.  As such, the patriarchs, and kings that you were speaking of ConnerLiamBrown, are saved because they kept the law by faith, but nobody during this time period will be saved unless they are trusting Christ Jesus in this life.  No, they will not have an opportunity to get saved after death. 

 

 

 

We need to examine the nature—even the mechanics—of what it means to “be saved”.  Salvation is from the sin within us; it is obtained by participation in the death and life of Jesus.  EVERYONE admitted into heaven must participate in this mystical union, including the patriarchs.  There is no other way to be saved.  To say that people of the O.C. were saved by trusting God means that the sin within them was purged by that trust, apart from Christ.  To say that they kept the Law is to say that they kept it perfectly, or well enough (merited salvation).  If that were possible, then there would be no reason for Christ—God does not change His mind in the Bible.  It always was Christ that saved and always will be.   But if that is the case, how should the patriarchs come to know Christ?  

 

I am not sure from where in Scripture you derive this enormous negative with such confidence:

 

No, they will not have an opportunity to get saved after death. 

 

 

 

clb

 

They were under a different covenant.  Those who lived before Jesus were given a method of obtaining eternal life.  They had to trust in Jehovah God, and they showed that faith by becoming circumcised and keeping the law to the best of their ability.  Under the Old Testament, if you messed up, an animal had to die to allow you to be forgiven for that sin.  It was a temporary system that would remain in effect until Jesus would come and die on a cross for our sins.  Once Jesus came and paid the penalty for our sins, we entered into a new covenant.  Under this covenant, we trust in Jesus in order to be saved.  When we sin, we confess our sins directly to God, and we are forgiven.  There is no more Levitical priesthood.  Acts makes it clear that under the New Covenant, there is no other name given under heaven whereby we must be saved, other than Jesus Christ.  Jesus is the door to the sheepfold.  There is no other way to gain entrance.  Jesus is the one who reconciles us to right relationship to God the Father.  Without him, there is no way of salvation.  Under the OT, failure to be circumcised and keep the law meant you were not saved and hell bound.  Under the NT, failure to put your trust in Jesus Christ means you are not saved and hell bound.  To reject Jesus is to reject the Father, because when you have seen Jesus, you have seen the Father.  They are one and the same God.