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Dear rapture believers


fire-heart

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Well, I see there's a lot of folks here on the Pre-Tribulational Rapture theory.

 

That doctrine from men never was a doctrine in the Church until the 1800's. The early Church fathers certainly never held to the idea of Christ's coming to gather His Church prior to, nor during the "great tribulation" He taught.

 

Nor does God's Word anywhere in Scripture even use the word 'rapture'. That word was derived from the Latin translation of the Greek NT word harpazo (to sieze), translated as "caught up" in the KJV Bible.

 

I'm sorry if some are offended at me saying this, but God's Word teaches that Christ's second coming and gathering of His Church, both from Heaven of the asleep saints, and His Church yet alive on earth, is at the end of the coming tribulation. The Scripture proof of that is clear from our Lord Jesus Himself in the Matt.24 and Mark 13 chapters, and by Apostle Paul in the 2 Thess.2 chapter. There also are other Scripture examples as proof also, like Christ's warning on the 6th Vial of Rev.16 where He is speaking to His Church still on earth at that point, just prior to the 7th Vial being poured out.

 

Moreover, in 1 Thess.5 Apostle Paul said that day (Christ's coming as a thief in the night) is NOT... to take us believers by surprise! Read it brethren and tell me I'm wrong with a good conscience.

 

The ones that Christ's coming will take by surprise are those who are not 'watching' like He commanded us. That does not mean an imminent rapture either, it means to be watching the signs of the end time events He gave us so as to not be deceived. That's why He gave us His Revelation through His Apostle John, so we'd 'know' the events to occur leading up to the time of His return. Did I say the day or hour? No. It's true none know when that will be, but when the events come to pass like He said to be watching, and He showed us in Rev.10 & 11 that when the 7th trumpet sounds the prophecies for this present world are finished, then what time do you think that means?!?

I'm not offended at all, so no apology necessary. But......you are wrong. Hehe

Spock running out the back door

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Folks, I wish... the pre-trib rapture was true, but not enough to try and force that idea into Scripture when it does not exist.

 

I well know a certain number of brethren are going to be deceived by men that push that idea. I'd rather they listened to our Heavenly Father and His Son directly in His Word though. I've discovered too many of them don't realize that He will show them His Word directly IF they quit listening to those men and instead ask Him for it, and then get disciplined in His Word for theirselves.

 

Jesus told us all things. He already revealed the times and the seasons leading up to His return. But it's spread out through the whole Bible, not just in one sole chapter or Book. Did you not know He showed us His coming within three and one half days after a specific event comes to pass in Jerusalem? Here it is...

 

 

God's two witnesses are killed with their dead bodies left laying in the street of Jerusalem for three and one half days. That's towards the end of the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period:

 

Rev 11:7-9
7    And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8    And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9    And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
(KJV)

 

Rev 11:11-12
11    And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12    And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, "Come up hither." And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
(KJV)


Rev 11:13-15
13    And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14    The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15    And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."
(KJV)

 

 

In the "same hour" God's two wittnesses arise, those events of the "third woe" come quickly. The 7th Trumpet sounds and notice the power transfer on earth from Satan's hand into The Heavenly Father and His Son's hand. Common sense tells you the tribulation has to be over at that point of transfer on the 7th trumpet - 3rd Woe period. It happens three days and an half AFTER God's two witnesses are killed in Jerusalem.

 

 

Will the world 'know' when God's two witnesses in Jerusalem are killed? Yes...

 

Rev 11:9-10
9    And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10    And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
(KJV)

 

How will the world see their dead bodies in Jerusalem? Apparently it's going to be televised over the whole world, because... of the next verse. The world (the deceived) will be throwing parties once the two witnesses are killed, giving each other presents and such. Sounds like a 'two witnesses are dead' party doesn't it?

 

But those listening to the Pre-Trib Rapture preachers will say something like, "That doesn't apply to Christ's Church, because the Church is already raptured at that point!", and other such denial type statements. Those don't know about these signs our Lord Jesus gave His because they don't want... to know them! And that's a type of rebellion against Him the way I see it, disregarding the signs He gave us to be watching as these things unfold.

Edited by Salty
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Salty

 

Sorry but the transfer of power does not happen until after Armageddon and after Satan has been locked up.  Where do you come up with television broadcasting the coming back to life of the two witnesses.  These people of all nations and tongues are already in Jerusalem, they view this event there.

 

Some of the Thessalonians thought they had missed the Rapture (saying that the day of the Lord has already come).  This is why Paul had to write some of 2 Thes, to correct this timing issue.  There are only two great events that the believers are looking forward to, 1. The Rapture,  2. The Second Coming.  They would have known if the Second Coming had happened, what they thought they had missed was the harpozo (Rapture).  This harpozo or Rapture doctrine was taught in the early Church.  It is not new, it did not come about from England.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

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Salty

 

Sorry but the transfer of power does not happen until after Armageddon and after Satan has been locked up.  Where do you come up with television broadcasting the coming back to life of the two witnesses.  These people of all nations and tongues are already in Jerusalem, they view this event there.

 

Some of the Thessalonians thought they had missed the Rapture (saying that the day of the Lord has already come).  This is why Paul had to write some of 2 Thes, to correct this timing issue.  There are only two great events that the believers are looking forward to, 1. The Rapture,  2. The Second Coming.  They would have known if the Second Coming had happened, what they thought they had missed was the harpozo (Rapture).  This harpozo or Rapture doctrine was taught in the early Church.  It is not new, it did not come about from England.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

The Thessalonians did think that they had missed the rapture, but only because false teachers had slipped in when Paul was away, which is why Paul told them not to let anyone deceive them, neither by word or letter as from them, in verse 2.  He then told them that that day would not come until after a falling away had come first, and then the son of perdition is revealed during the abomination of desolation.  This passage is a stumbling block to the pre-trib rapture theory, but it amazes me how people keep refusing to see it. 

 

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

 

 

Cheers

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RT

 

That is part of my point.  The Rapture Doctrine was taught in the early Church.  It did not come out of England in the 1820's.  Paul clarifies what to look for.  He did not say that this doctrine was false as some portray.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

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RT

 

That is part of my point.  The Rapture Doctrine was taught in the early Church.  It did not come out of England in the 1820's.  Paul clarifies what to look for.  He did not say that this doctrine was false as some portray.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

Not in so many words, but he warned them to not let anyone deceive them. We don't know that it was actually the rapture per se that was so concerning to them. I believe the Thessalonians were concerned because some were teaching that the resurrection was already past.

2 Timothy 2:16-18

But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

Hymenaeus and Philetus may have been telling them about many of the saints that slept arose after Christ' resurrection in Matt.27:52-53. But regardless, Paul made sure to tell the Thessalonians that our gathering unto the Lord will not happen until after the falling away and the abomination of desolation.  He made it plain as day.

 

 

Cheers

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RT

 

That is part of my point.  The Rapture Doctrine was taught in the early Church.  It did not come out of England in the 1820's.  Paul clarifies what to look for.  He did not say that this doctrine was false as some portray.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

The gathering to Christ was taught by the early Church, but not the doctrine called the Pre-Trib Rapture which did begin in 1830's Britain with the Irvingite and Brethren movements, and John Darby.

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RT

 

That is part of my point.  The Rapture Doctrine was taught in the early Church.  It did not come out of England in the 1820's.  Paul clarifies what to look for.  He did not say that this doctrine was false as some portray.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

Not in so many words, but he warned them to not let anyone deceive them. We don't know that it was actually the rapture per se that was so concerning to them. I believe the Thessalonians were concerned because some were teaching that the resurrection was already past.

2 Timothy 2:16-18

But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

Hymenaeus and Philetus may have been telling them about many of the saints that slept arose after Christ' resurrection in Matt.27:52-53. But regardless, Paul made sure to tell the Thessalonians that our gathering unto the Lord will not happen until after the falling away and the abomination of desolation.  He made it plain as day.

 

 

Cheers

 

 

The subject of 2 Thessalonians 2 was not about debate of whether the resurrection had happened yet or not. It was about this:

 

II Th 2:1-2

1    Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,

2    That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

(KJV)

 

The subject was about events associated with the timing of our Lord Jesus' return and our gathering to Him. We all do not read Scripture as carefully as we should at times, which is why that phrase "nor by letter as from us" is often passed over. By that phrase Paul was pointing to a faction that had crept in among the Thessalonian Church which were pushing propaganda among them, even letters claimed to be written by the Apostles regarding the subject of verse 1.

 

So in Paul's second Epistle there to the Thessalonians, he was trying to correct their understanding and quell the propaganda that had started among them about the timing of Christ's coming and gathering of His saints. If Apostle Paul were still alive today, no doubt he'd be very busy writing a whole lot more letters to the Churches on this matter, because the enemy's propaganda machine against this timing of Christ's return has gone into overdrive.

Edited by Salty
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Salty

 

Sorry but the transfer of power does not happen until after Armageddon and after Satan has been locked up.  Where do you come up with television broadcasting the coming back to life of the two witnesses.  These people of all nations and tongues are already in Jerusalem, they view this event there.

 

 

That is... the timing of that 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe, which is easily shown by the subject of Rev.11:14-15 when all the kingdoms of this world become those of The Father and His Son as written there. We don't have to have mention of the battle of Armageddon within that verse section to know that will have taken place on that 7th trumpet - 3rd woe. Recall the Rev.10:7 verse that the "mystery of God" He revealed through His prophets will be finished at the sounding of that 7th angel. That means all prophecy for this present world time.

 

As for those who will see the dead bodies of God's two witnesses laying in the street of Jerusalem, the Scripture declares

 

Rev 11:9-10

9    And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

10    And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

(KJV)

 

Are you not aware that Scripture is pointing to peoples also outside Jerusalem, or are you just wanting to argue with that Scripture? This shouldn't be that difficult to understand what with all of today's technology. Prior to the discovery and television and satellite technology this would have been difficult to understand.

 

-------------

Marv said:

Some of the Thessalonians thought they had missed the Rapture (saying that the day of the Lord has already come).  This is why Paul had to write some of 2 Thes, to correct this timing issue.  There are only two great events that the believers are looking forward to, 1. The Rapture,  2. The Second Coming.  They would have known if the Second Coming had happened, what they thought they had missed was the harpozo (Rapture).  This harpozo or Rapture doctrine was taught in the early Church.  It is not new, it did not come about from England.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

----------------------

 

The Pre-Tribulational Rapture theory did... come from 1830's Great Britain, and it was not... taught in the early Church. So I don't know who you're trying to fool; it's certainly not working on me.

 

One of the reasons I don't use that word 'rapture' is because it is not how Greek harpazo was translated into the English of the KJV Bible, and because of how those on the Pre-Trib Rapture theory intentionally try to deceive by using the word rapture by itself, when they actually mean the Pre-Trib Rapture theory of men.

 

Those who will remain faithful to Christ Jesus all the way to the end seek His coming and automatically know that means the time of their gathering to Him. No special separation of clauses created by men are needed to reveal the subject of those events, for they both happen together at the same time, especially with Apostle Paul's statement in the very first verse of 2 Thessalonians 2.

Edited by Salty
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I concur with  rollinTHUNDER

 

By the time Paul wrote his second epistle to the Thessalonians, it was most apparent, that they did not "know all about the day of the Lord" and other such events. In his second epistle Paul makes it clear that the man of sin must first come

 

The Thessalonians thought were concerned because they thought the resurrection was already past. It has nothing to do with a so called rapture.

 

That would make the following subject of Paul's first verse irrelevant then...

 

II Th 2:1-2

1    Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,

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