Do we have an appointed time of death?

[Atwood]

Hall7:

"That's what makes me feel immortal when I do extreme sports. Makes the hobbies more enjoyable, can't be careless and suicidal about it though and always pray before."

Hall, I don't know what you mean by "extreme sports," but your context indicates dangerous things?

One thing about reading these forums is that you learn new concepts and vocabulary.

"always pray before" Now if only I could alway remember to pray first.

[Atwood]

Fez asked: "Why bother to pray at all"

Methinks the standard answer is that God not only predestines outcomes, but also their means.

Fez apparently rejects the concept of predestination, saying: "not predestined."

Predestination is no doubt a revolting and outrageous idea for many. But what will you do with all the scripture on the subject and on election? There is a lot on it in the Bible. Have you done a concordance check of such passages? Ephesians 1 and Romans 9 come to mind at once. Here is Romans 9, a passage that a man who believed in predestination stuck under my nose when I was an unsaved youth, a passage which helped lead me to trust Christ as Savior:

"10 And not only so; but Rebekah also having conceived by one, even by our father Isaac— 11 for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him who calls, 12 it was said to her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.

14  What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Let it not be so. 15 For he says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God that has mercy. 17 For the scripture says to Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise you up, that I might show in you my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth. 18 So then he has mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardens.

19   You wilt say then unto me, Why does he still find fault? For who withstands his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who are you that replies against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst you make me thus? 21 Or has not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel to honor, and another to dishonor? 22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction: 23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared to glory, 24 even us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles? "

[Joshua-777]

 

 

 

 

I do believe there is an appointed time for everyone to die, and I do believe the way we die is also appointed.  Then again, I believe everything we do is set In stone, including my decision to read and comment in this thread.  We have no way to know when that will be, but God knows.  Before anyone asks, I do realize what that means. 

Ok so before you were saved God appointed you to lie in a coma for a year and then die of cancer? 

 

And God is pulling your strings like you are a puppet? Was He doing this before you were saved, or only after?

 

I said I know what my comment means.  The way a person dies was determined before they were formed in the womb.   Everything was decided before I was formed by God in the womb, and that includes my decision to get saved.  It was determined back in the eons of time that you would ask me these questions, and I would give you the answer I am giving you.  You can ask me follow up questions, but you will get a similar answer. 

 

 

I do not believe that these things are pre-determined. They are known.

 

That's what I believe. They are known, not predestined. because that means that the cancer epidemic in the USA and other countries was planned by God.

 

 

Same here.

[Atwood]

The thread:

"I do not believe that these things are pre-determined. They are known.

"That's what I believe. They are known, not predestined. because that means that the cancer epidemic in the USA and other countries was planned by God.

"Same here."

How do you handle all the passages in the Bible that use the vocabulary like predestine, predestined, predestinated, elect, chosen, called, His purpose which vocabulary is used a significant number of times -- or have you examined the passaged?

[Joshua-777]

I believe He knows all things and brings a purpose of all things but is not the cause of things. God is radically good, in Him there is no darkness. Good things come from God, bad things come from the devil. It's not God's heart or will for people to sin, and sin is the infant stage of death.

 

James 1:12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.

 

Jesus makes a contrast between Himself and the devil. He says the thief steals, kills, and destroys, He comes to bring life more abundantly.

 

John 10:10 The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.

 

He also destroyed the works of the devil. He came against things, revealing that there is an actual war going on.

 

Acts 10:38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. 39 And we are witnesses of all things which He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem, whom they killed by hanging on a tree.

 

Now, the "God predestined evil" thing I don't by into. Jesus is the revealed will of the Father. He came against wickedness, He came against the works of the devil, not the works of the Father.

 

I'll never forget a testimony I heard from a professor at bible college. He said one night in India, he was exausted and worn out. A guy called him who wasn't a believer and he knew he should talk to him but didn't. He was tired and ignored that urgant feeling and had someone tell him he would talk to him tomorrow. The guy ended up committing suicide that night, had the professor talked to him would things have been different?

 

I remember one day, I passed by a student and her arm was in a sling from a broken collor bone. After a quick prayer Jesus healed her, then come to find out a week later she was planning on killing herself but God intervened by showing her He was there for here. Had I not have prayed, would she have gone through with it?  I've have a few testimonies where God intervened and prevented suicides. Suicide is from the devil and I cannot believe that it is the pre-appointed time for anyone.

 

Lets take this even further. That horible shooting that happened a few years ago in the movie theater while batman was playing. Many people died because someone was following the devil. Did God appoint them to die, I can't attribute such wickedness to God and I know that broke His heart. What happened? Someone was following the devil to the point the devil controlled him and that influenced others people destiny by murder. The thief comes to steal kill and destory.

 

Now here's a reality, just as someone can follow the devil and destroy alot of lives we can follow Jesus and watch Him restore alot of lives. Now, that choice is on us, who are we going to follow. God didn't make a blueprint of everything that was going to happen and say, well thats my gameplan. He gave us His Holy Spirit and as Jesus destroyed the works of the devil, He gives us that same comission. The reality is we're at war, but we're ont he winning side. Jesus overcame the world on the cross. What we do with that does matter, and it can be the difference between life and death.

 

Now, I do believe that if you are abiding in Christ, you can have an appointed time to die for example Peters death was pre-appointed. Jesus death was predetermined, but thats different than saying everything happens because God predetermined it to happen, the good and the bad.

 

 

[Guest Butero]

 

 

 

I do believe there is an appointed time for everyone to die, and I do believe the way we die is also appointed.  Then again, I believe everything we do is set In stone, including my decision to read and comment in this thread.  We have no way to know when that will be, but God knows.  Before anyone asks, I do realize what that means. 

Ok so before you were saved God appointed you to lie in a coma for a year and then die of cancer? 

 

And God is pulling your strings like you are a puppet? Was He doing this before you were saved, or only after?

 

I said I know what my comment means.  The way a person dies was determined before they were formed in the womb.   Everything was decided before I was formed by God in the womb, and that includes my decision to get saved.  It was determined back in the eons of time that you would ask me these questions, and I would give you the answer I am giving you.  You can ask me follow up questions, but you will get a similar answer. 

 

Ok let me ask you then, can you hasten your death if God has it under His control? Why bother with a healthy diet? Why bother to exercise? 

 

Why bother to pray for healing? Why bother to pray at all if it will not make an iota of difference to your fate?

 

If I have been waiting eons for the answers will it take you eons to reply to them? 

 

Yes and no.  Your actions may hasten your death, but if you do things to hasten your death, it was pre-determined you would do those things.  If you choose to eat healthy and exercise, it was pre-determined you would behave that way.  Some people take good care of themselves and still die young.  Some don't take care of themselves and live a long life.  God is in control. 

 

As for praying if you are sick, I am all for that, and practice it.  I have seen people healed and some that weren't healed.  It is all according to God's will.  And thankfully Fez, the long wait is over now.  You are getting my answer today. 

[Joshua-777]

Fez asked: "Why bother to pray at all"

Methinks the standard answer is that God not only predestines outcomes, but also their means.

Fez apparently rejects the concept of predestination, saying: "not predestined."

Predestination is no doubt a revolting and outrageous idea for many. But what will you do with all the scripture on the subject and on election? There is a lot on it in the Bible. Have you done a concordance check of such passages? Ephesians 1 and Romans 9 come to mind at once. Here is Romans 9, a passage that a man who believed in predestination stuck under my nose when I was an unsaved youth, a passage which helped lead me to trust Christ as Savior:

"10 And not only so; but Rebekah also having conceived by one, even by our father Isaac— 11 for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him who calls, 12 it was said to her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.

14  What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Let it not be so. 15 For he says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God that has mercy. 17 For the scripture says to Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise you up, that I might show in you my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth. 18 So then he has mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardens.

19   You wilt say then unto me, Why does he still find fault? For who withstands his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who are you that replies against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst you make me thus? 21 Or has not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel to honor, and another to dishonor? 22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction: 23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared to glory, 24 even us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles? "

 

 

 

It's interesting that Paul refers to Pharoah in this. Now if you pay attention in Exodus, it says, Pharoah hardened his heart 3-4 times then it says God hardened his heart. In This passage, Paul is refering to the rejection of the Jews, they hardened their heart so many times against God, God hardened their hearts from seeing Him. The context is very important. He's making a point of Israels rejection and salvation available for the Gentiles which is the context of Romans 9-11.

 

Now Esau and Jacob, Esau gave up his birthright and Jacob recieved the inharitence. Is not Israel God's first, yet the birthright was handed over to the Gentiles?  Esau valued temporal pleasure over his inharitence.

 

 

Also it says he endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, it doesn't say He prepared them there, in the context of Israel they prepared themselves for destruction by not following after God and when Jesus came they were blinded from seeing Him.

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

 

(Context)

 

25 As He says also in Hosea:

“I will call them My people, who were not My people,

And her beloved, who was not beloved.”

26 “And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,

‘You are not My people,’

There they shall be called sons of the living God.”[

 

27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel:

“Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,

The remnant will be saved.

28 For He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness,

Because the Lord will make a short work upon the earth.”[k]

 

29 And as Isaiah said before:

“Unless the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed,

We would have become like Sodom,

And we would have been made like Gomorrah.”

 

(Here's what it all boils down to)

 

30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.

[coheir]

Predestination on the death bed.

Free will on the death bed.

So if God has set a specific time to die is it wrong to go to a specialist and fight against this pre-determined date. Most everyone does fight against dying. if a person seeks out the best specialist is he doing it under Gods actions in his life or is he using free will to fight his determined date of death.

[Guest Butero]

If the person chooses to see a specialist, it was pre-determined they would do so.  They are not fighting against the pre-determined date.  Their very actions are what they were supposed to do all along. 

[Willa]

Interesting. So if you believe God has set an appointed time for us to die (which is what I am reading?), do you then think He has set the way we should die as well?

 

And if you are going to use the Ecc scripture as your arguments that God has set us a time to die, do you think He has set for us a time to laugh and a time to cry, etc? My point being is dying has a set point in time, it can't be anything else. Do you think our laughter is also prearranged in such a fashion, as is our mourning?

I believe that God forsees the era we will be born into. He forsees our linage, parents and all. He also forsees the choices we will make or have made. He forsees our deaths.

One of the comforting things about my moms premature death, at age 55, of an unforseen heart attack in her sleep, was the fact that I was able to wear all of her clothes at the time. We were poor and had one small son, the second was born a month later. After I lost a few pounds post partum her dresses & clothes all fit like when I was in high school when we exchanged wardrobes. She had gained weight during the prior year. But even more amazing was the fact that I was able to wear her shoes for the first time in my life. It was a comfort to wear them all because I received them as God's provision, and He had somehow matched our sizes to do so. I knew then that He had forseen it all and I truely understood that He was in control. It left us all in very bad circumstaces since my dad, a stroke victim, needed care and we lived hours away. I had 2 small children that also needed much care. Hubby was still an unbeliever, and I had to be the strong one. God had restored me to the faith and filled me with His Spirit only months prior to it all, to give me the strength to endure and to give me hope, since mom had also been a believer.

Dad had once been a believer, but had forsaken the Lord in College. A book by Frances Schaeffer turned him back to the Lord a year prior to his death. A month after confessing his refound faith, he started having mini strokes on the opposite side than his first huge stroke; they then affected his reasoning. A year later he also died. God had kept him alert and alive till he repented. God retrieved a lost sheep.

So yes, I do believe that God is in control of, cares about and is involved with the details of our lives. "The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord.Psm 37:31, 40:42; A man's heart plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps, Prov.16:9, 20:24 A mans steps are of the Lord; how can a man understand his own way?"

I also believe that He is opportunistic and uses circumstances for our good. He keeps us dependant on Him so that we will not wander from Him. We serve and amazing God. He is closer than a brother, walks with us and lives in us. He chastens us and comforts us, He directs us and establishes us. Yes we can choose to rebel and oppose Him in foolishness and pride, and we will be scourged accordingly since He treats us like sons. We can be deceived and wander away, but God will seek us out and bring us again to repentance. I would much rather nestle under the shelter of His wings.