Big Bang in Genesis?

[MorningGlory]

I should be pointed out that one feature of Genesis that most people accept on its face which speaks against the Big Bang occurring at "Let there be light" is that to most people, the earth already exists but is shrouded in darkness and is void.

 

The Big Bang is supposed to give us the origin of the earth, but to reconcile that with the Bible is impossible because the Bible says that the Spirit of God is already hovering over the earth prior to when some people are claiming the Bible depicts the Big Bang occurring.  Essentially, it would mean that the earth would have to pre-exist the Big Bang in Gen. 1:2 prior to the "Big Bang" occuring in v. 3 with God saying "let their be light."

 

You can believe the Bible or you can believe the Big Bang.  But you cannot have both.  Stop buying into Liberal theology that is predicated on a rejection of doctrinal purity and a rejection of the authority and inerrancy of the Word of God.

 

Oh my goodness!  The above had not occurred to me.  The earth obviously couldn't preexist the moment of Creation so now I'm really in a quandary.  Good explanation, Shiloh. 

[Salty]

 

Genesis 1:1 is the first creation of the heavens and the earth. Genesis 1:2 is a destruction of the earth's surface by those waters spread over all of the earth. The translation "without form, and void" is not an accurate translation from Hebrew tohuw va bohuw. Genesis 1:1 is God's original perfect creation; Genesis 1:2 is its destruction and then the beginning of a renewing, with which the fossil record agrees.

 

That is false and the Hebrew text of Gen. 1:2 will not allow for that "gap theory" that you are promoting.   Gen. 1:1 is a synopsis of what is to follow.  Gen. 1:2 to the end of the chapter is an expansion on of verse 1.

 

 

You still have not explained the points I mentioned per those Scriptures as written, but immediately went into a theological attack outside the Scripture itself.

 

Compare the only two instances of that "without form, and void" phrase in God's Word,

Gen 1:2

2    And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

(KJV)

Jer 4:23-24

23    I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

24    I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

(KJV)

 

 

Per the Strong's Concordance -

 

"without form" = Hebrew tohuw = Strong's no. 8414 - "from an unused root meaning to lie waste; a desolation (of surface)". In many OT Scriptures this word was used about something in a previous condition going bad.

 

"and void" = Hebrew bohuw = Strong's no. 922 - "from an unused root (meaning to be empty); a vacuity, i.e., (superficially) an undistinguishable ruin". Notice that in the Jeremiah 4 example it's about the earth having become that bohuw state, applying the "undistinguishable ruin" situation.

Edited May 23, 2014 by Salty

[Guest shiloh357]

You still have not explained the points I mentioned per those Scriptures as written, but immediately went into a theological attack outside the Scripture itself.

 

No I didn't go outside the Scripture.  I was speaking of Gen. 1:2.   Let me explain.  In Hebrew Gen. 1:2 begins v'aheretz hayata tohu v'bohu...  "and the earth was without form and void..."  

 

The relationship between 1:1 and 1:2 is very important.  In Hebrew, v.2 does something that doesn't occur often in Hebrew.  The "v" in Hebrew is the Hebrew word vav "and."  the next word is a noun, haeretz or  "earth."   That is very important.   Because when two independents thoughts are joined with a "v" followed by a verb, it is called a "vav connective."   That means that the two independent thoughts are connected within the same line of thought, sequentially.

 

But what we have here is a vav followed not by a verb, but by a noun, haeretz.  When the vav is followed by a noun, it is called a "vav disjunctive" and it means that the previous thought is separate from, independent from the thought that follows.

 

Gen. 1:2 is a "vav disjunctive" and that means that Gen. 1:2 is not sequentially a continuation of the previous thought.   Now more to the point, in Gen. 1:2 the word for "was" hayata has to possible meanings.  It can mean "was" or or it can mean "to become."  If Gen. 1:2 were a "vav connective," hayata could be translated became and your "gap theory" would have some validity.   But Gen. 1:2 is a "vav disjunctive" which means that hayata cannot mean anything but "was."

 

Compare the only two instances of that "without form, and void" phrase in God's Word,  (snip)   Notice that in the Jeremiah 4 example it's about the earth having become that bohuw state, applying the "undistinguishable ruin" situation.

I see that, but you need to understand that you are dealing with two different kinds of literature, here.  You have Gen. 1:2 which is part of a historical narrative.   And you have Jer. 4:23-24 which is a prophecy.   Jeremiah is describing the desolation of Jerusalem and Judea by the Babylonians.  He is as is typical prophetic passages, using the wasted and empty description of the earth in it pre-creation form as a vivid form of imagery to describe what Jerusalem looks like after the Babylonians had totally sacked the city and razed it to the ground.

 

[Salty]

The following Jer.4 verse includes a description which one cannot simply pass off as a simple description of how God would destroy Judea/Jerusalem through the king of Babylon.

 

Jer 4:27-28
27    For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
28    For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.
(KJV)
 

That part is in relation to this:

 

Rom 8:19-23
19    For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20    For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of Him Who hath subjected the same in hope,
21    Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22    For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23    And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
(KJV)
 

 

One of the major fallacies in man's understanding about God's creation is not understanding how He subjected the creation into a state of vanity and bondage to corruption, and it seeks to be delivered from that bondage along with the manifesting of the sons of God. Most think today's creation is the way God originally made it, but they also don't know about the fossil records of tropical animal and plant life that once existed at the earth's poles and in the deserts.

 

With the majority usages of the Hebrew towhu in the OT, the idea is about something in a previous state going bad, to ruin. In Jer.4 God is actually reminding those at Judea what He once did with a destruction upon the earth's surface back between Gen.1:1 and Gen.1:2. And that's why the Jer.4 usage of towhuw va bohuw is applied to an existing condition upon the earth going to ruin, negating your idea of Hebrew grammar for va.

Edited May 23, 2014 by Salty

[Guest shiloh357]

The following Jer.4 verse includes a description which one cannot simply pass off as a simple description of how God would destroy Judea/Jerusalem through the king of Babylon.

 

Jer 4:27-28

27    For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.

28    For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

(KJV)

 

You are mistaken.  The immediate context of that passage is about the destruction and desolation of Judah.  The verses that precede that prove that this is so:

 

"If you return, O Israel, declares the LORD, to me you should return. If you remove your detestable things from my presence, and do not waver, and if you swear, 'As the LORD lives,' in truth, in justice, and in righteousness, then nations shall bless themselves in him, and in him shall they glory." For thus says the LORD to the men of Judah and Jerusalem: "Break up your fallow ground, and sow not among thorns. Circumcise yourselves to the LORD; remove the foreskin of your hearts, O men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem; lest my wrath go forth like fire, and burn with none to quench it, because of the evil of your deeds." Declare in Judah, and proclaim in Jerusalem, and say, "Blow the trumpet through the land; cry aloud and say, 'Assemble, and let us go into the fortified cities!' Raise a standard toward Zion, flee for safety, stay not, for I bring disaster from the north, and great destruction. A lion has gone up from his thicket, a destroyer of nations has set out; he has gone out from his place to make your land a waste; your cities will be ruins without inhabitant. For this put on sackcloth, lament and wail, for the fierce anger of the LORD has not turned back from us." "In that day, declares the LORD, courage shall fail both king and officials. The priests shall be appalled and the prophets astounded." Then I said, "Ah, Lord GOD, surely you have utterly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, 'It shall be well with you,' whereas the sword has reached their very life." At that time it will be said to this people and to Jerusalem, "A hot wind from the bare heights in the desert toward the daughter of my people, not to winnow or cleanse, a wind too full for this comes for me. Now it is I who speak in judgment upon them." Behold, he comes up like clouds; his chariots like the whirlwind; his horses are swifter than eagles— woe to us, for we are ruined! O Jerusalem, wash your heart from evil, that you may be saved. How long shall your wicked thoughts lodge within you? For a voice declares from Dan and proclaims trouble from Mount Ephraim. Warn the nations that he is coming; announce to Jerusalem, "Besiegers come from a distant land; they shout against the cities of Judah. Like keepers of a field are they against her all around, because she has rebelled against me, declares the LORD. Your ways and your deeds have brought this upon you. This is your doom, and it is bitter; it has reached your very heart." My anguish, my anguish! I writhe in pain! Oh the walls of my heart! My heart is beating wildly; I cannot keep silent, for I hear the sound of the trumpet, the alarm of war. Crash follows hard on crash; the whole land is laid waste. Suddenly my tents are laid waste, my curtains in a moment. How long must I see the standard and hear the sound of the trumpet? "For my people are foolish; they know me not; they are stupid children; they have no understanding. They are 'wise'—in doing evil! But how to do good they know not."

(Jer 4:1-22)

None of that has anything to do with Genesis 1:2.  That is the context of the passage you cite.  Jeremiah does not have the pre-creation in mind at all.

 

One of the major fallacies in man's understanding about God's creation is not understanding how He subjected the creation into a state of vanity and bondage to corruption, and it seeks to be delivered from that bondage along with the manifesting of the sons of God. Most think today's creation is the way God originally made it, but they also don't know about the fossil records of tropical animal and plant life that once existed at the earth's poles and in the deserts.

 

With the majority usages of the Hebrew towhu in the OT, the idea is about something in a previous state going bad, to ruin. In Jer.4 God is actually reminding those at Judea what He once did with a destruction upon the earth's surface back between Gen.1:1 and Gen.1:2. And that's why the Jer.4 usage of towhuw va bohuw is applied to an existing condition upon the earth going to ruin, negating your idea of Hebrew grammar for va.

 

That is sloppy.

 

You can't negate Hebrew grammar anymore than you can negate mathematics or English Grammar.  The grammatical structure of Genesis 1 2 makes your position impossible to support.  You can stubbornly and naively ignore the facts, but the facts are that NO ONE who is knowledgeable in Hebrew or in the proper exegesis of Scripture would support such nonsense.

 

God originally made the earth sinless and Adam ruined creation through his sin.  There was no pre-adamite earth.   There was no destruction of a pre-adamite earth.  That is nothing but a sad fairytale that has no basis in biblical truth.

 

You can defiantly and stubbornly ignore facts all you want, but no clear thinking follower of Christ is going to buy into it.