JJ50 Posted May 25, 2014 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 16 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/22/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted May 25, 2014 I am quite content to hope that when I die I cease to be, I have no interest in an afterlife. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevenseas Posted May 25, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,373 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 683 Days Won: 22 Joined: 02/28/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted May 25, 2014 I have asked this question on other forums and have been astonished that quite a number of 'born agains' would turn into criminals without the fear of hell to deter them!  You have not understood my post as you consider yourself a  nonbeliever.  What Christians are actually saying to you, is that without the Holy Spirit, without God's laws and His order, the world is chaos and we would be no better then a criminal.  You see, we understand what the presence of the Holy Spirit in this world does.  We understand that without God, without His Spirit changing us, we would be no better then what the rest of the world offers....you don't understand that because, as you have posted above, you basically have no hope  Our hope, is in Christ Jesus.  Not in religion or the twisted way God is sometimes represented, but in the only One who can actually change a life and Who has created all things  For those of us who actually are IN Christ, it is not the fear of hell that causes us to believe.  Once we know the One that died in our place, we understand that hell is separation from God.  Knowing God, as I do, that would be hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 First of all, the creation proves the existence of a creator, so the premise is flawed. I will try to be honest with you JJ50. I would still be overall a morally decent person. I have no desire to go out doing bad things. That is not who I am, but it probably would make some difference in some of the views I hold to, that are shaped only by the Word of God. All I would have to go by is my conscience, but because I believe in God, I live according to his teachings over my natural instincts. That is about as well as I can put it, but the whole idea is absurd, as I know that neither one of us could exist without a creator.  I can understand your position to be fine with no afterlife. A lot of people likely feel that way, but unfortunately, that choice is not ours to make. If you are wrong, you won't cease to exist after this life, and if I am right, you will be living in torment forever in the lake of fire. Do you really want to take that chance? What would I have to lose if I am wrong? I would cease to exist. Big deal. But again, given everything that exists, including me and you, I have to agree with scripture when it states, "the fool hath said in his heart, there is no god." The idea defies logic. And even you are just saying you doubt there is a creator, and you reckon science will eventually reveal how everything got here. All scientists can do is observe what is here and make an educated guess. This is your life, so all I can do is suggest you put more thought into the possibility you might be wrong. There is a lot on the line, not just for you, but for your family, because they are influenced by your views. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJ50 Posted May 25, 2014 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 16 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/22/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted May 25, 2014 What sort of crazy deity would consign people to burn in the fires of hell for mere unbelief? Unbelief is quite reasonable as there isn't the slightest shred of evidence to prove it exists. Surely a decent loving deity who wanted a relationship with humans would make its presence clear to all in a verifiable way, and not a matter of mere faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevenseas Posted May 25, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,373 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 683 Days Won: 22 Joined: 02/28/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted May 25, 2014 What sort of crazy deity would consign people to burn in the fires of hell for mere unbelief? Unbelief is quite reasonable as there isn't the slightest shred of evidence to prove it exists. Surely a decent loving deity who wanted a relationship with humans would make its presence clear to all in a verifiable way, and not a matter of mere faith.  Please read Romans 1.  That will explain it to you.  God loves you.  However, He will not force anyone no matter how nice they think they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJ50 Posted May 25, 2014 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 16 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/22/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted May 25, 2014 I cannot see anything remotely loving about the Biblical version of the deity! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 (edited) Who cares? Who says the deity has to be loving. He is who he is, and he says in his Word that unbelievers will burn for eternity in the lake of fire. Read the Bible for yourself. If you still can't believe, so be it. You have nothing to lose.  BTW, I have already showed you that the creation, as well as our history, especially that of the Jews, points to a creator, so you are wrong when you say "there is not the slightest shred of evidence that proves" God exists. That is just false. Edited May 25, 2014 by Butero Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJ50 Posted May 25, 2014 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 16 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/22/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted May 25, 2014 There is NO evidence the deity or an afterlife exists, or that it had anything to do with the production of the Bible, which seems a very human creation to me. But if you are happy with you very unpleasant belief system that is up to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willa Posted May 25, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 68 Topic Count: 185 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 14,224 Content Per Day: 3.34 Reputation: 16,647 Days Won: 30 Joined: 08/14/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted May 25, 2014 I second post #8 by spock. It was exactly what I was about to post. Trying to convince me that God does not exist is the same as saying that the world is just an illusion and I don't exist. It is delusional to think God does not exist. Most unbelievers think that they have no eternal soul and that they will simply not exist upon death. They think a God who would send them to hell is not a loving God. You need God to reveal to you how ugly and destable pride and self righteousness are. It is usually our pride that denys the existance of a Creator and denys our own imperfection. It also denies the perfection that is required for anyone to enter heaven, thinking they are just as good as anyone else which is self righteousness. But God is perfect and can't tollerate any imperfection. The problem was solved by God Himself. By sending His Son, God in human flesh, to live a perfect life and then die in payment for the sins of the world, He also imputed His righteousness onto the accounts of all believers. Legally we are perfect in God's eyes.. Meanwhile the Holy Spirit came into the lives of all true believers to give us a new nature that can communicate with God. He lives in us and works at slowly changing us to be more Christ like. When we die we will be made completely pure as our souls join Christ in heaven. If you have ever created a work of art you can understand what it is to view it later and see all sorts of imperfections in it. It drives you nuts and you are tempted to continue to correct all the errors. God as our Creator made us to be perfect and cannot tollerate the corruption that satan brought into our world to our physical beings as well as our souls; even the corruption of our planet will one day be restored. Most people who deny the existance of God will at least recognize that evil people exist or that our planet is being corrupted and destroyed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 Yes there is evidence of a deity, and that God gave us the Bible. I gave you the evidence. If that evidence isn't enough to convince you, fine. If the creation isn't enough, and if the Jewish nation and world history isn't enough, fine, but you are being dishonest when you claim I didn't give you evidence.  BTW, it isn't a matter of being "happy with" a "very unpleasant belief system." I suppose I am happy with it, but that is irrelevant. I could hate my belief system, and still know it is true. I hate a lot of things going on in my country, but reality is reality. I accept it, because it is foolish to live in denial. I would say to you, if you are happy living in denial, and willing to risk the lake of fire, that is up to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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