Differentiating Biblical Truth, Personal Convictions, & Personal P

[other one]

Oh, I guess I should add that it was my wife's dress......     after 44 years I still get worked up over that woman....

[GoldenEagle]

 

Question: How does drinking alcohol say in moderation (we do so on my wife’s birthday just the two of us) sacrifice my relationship with God?  

 

I am not saying that it does.  I am saying that the way we answer such questions need to be from an inward motivation to protect our relationship with God at all costs, rather than asking from a motivation of wanting see how much we can get away with or from a slavish obedience to a set of rules.

 

 

So sounds like what you're saying is we need to be balanced. Not legalistic or libertarian (see ) in our approach to Scripture. Placing God first in our lives. Is that the essence of what your saying brother?

In Christ,

GE

[GoldenEagle]

A. Doctrine:        1 Tim.2:9 only says that " the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing."   

 

It says nothing about men.

 

b.conviction:  Perhaps pride and vanity are the things that needs to be dealt with.  If a man is proud of his body, he should cover it up.  Women who are proud of their hair should cover it, and neither should dress in costly clothing which also lends to pride and vanity.  Moderation may be the key word;   we should desire to not call attention to ourselves.

 

c preference:   However I do find that I am embarrassed when I see a man in a speedo.  Even fig leaves are better than that.  

 

Sorry sister I didn't see 1 Tim 2:9 in the original quote. I guess that was the passage you referencing. Makes sense.

Interesting that you'd base this idea of modesty on this passage. Here it is in context...

1 Tim. 2:8-15

⁸ I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling; ⁹ likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, ¹⁰ but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works. ¹¹ Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. ¹² I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. ¹³ For Adam was formed first, then Eve; ¹⁴ and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. ¹⁵ Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.

Perhaps the women in this passage were flaunting their riches and trying to stand out? Notice the description following: "braided hair, gold, pearls, or costly attire" in the following section I underlined above. I propose the purpose of these women was to show off and to flaunt their social status. Not to show skin as often we think of in discussions about modesty today.

 

Also curious how do you view verse 9 in context of verse 12 a little further down?

Also, we should probably define how we're using the term "modesty" or "modest". We may have different definitions.

To me  definitions of modest that come to mind:

 

A. free from ostentation or showy extravagance

or

B. having or showing regard for the decencies of behavior, speech, dress, etc.; decent

or

C. not extreme or excessive; moderate

 

I think motivation (why you're dressing, talking, etc a certain way) and attitude (behavior) really come into play in the whole discussion about modesty. I also would say that it's not just women that need to be given a word of caution in this discussion. But it often is women who bear the brunt of the burden of this discussion on modesty.

 

What do you think?

In Christ,

GE

[GoldenEagle]

getting drunk is not what gets us in trouble.....   it's what we do when we are drunk that is the problem......

 

Noah got drunk and fell asleep naked and God didn't seem to say anything to him about that.....   it was the actions of his son that was condemned.

 

I agree brother.

Good reason not to get drunk. People do dumb things when they're drunk.

 

The most alluring dress I have ever seen was an emerald green, full length pure silk dress that was split up to just over the knee....    no cleavage showing but it just flowed with her body when she walked......   i get goose bumps just thinking about it......   it was much more erotic than if she was wearing nothing...

 

 

Lol.

 

Oh, I guess I should add that it was my wife's dress......     after 44 years I still get worked up over that woman....

LOL! Yes, I read that to my wife and we had a good laugh. Way to keep the fire of marriage going brother! Congrats on 44 years.

God bless,

GE

[Guest Butero]

The OP makes sense, except people won't agree on the difference between the three choices.  Lets look at one of the most controversial doctrines, the Sabbath. 

 

Biblical Truth:  Honoring the Sabbath is one of the Ten Commandments.

Personal Conviction:  Don't Work On Sunday or Saturday

Personal Choice:  Avoid Working On Saturday or Sunday.  Everyone needs at least one day of rest.

 

There are people in the church that believe that it is a serious sin to work on Saturday and some who believe it is a serious sin to work on Sunday (the Christian Sabbath).  They won't simply agree to disagree because in their way of thinking, keeping the Sabbath is a salvation issue.  You used alcohol as an example.  Some believe taking on sip of a drink with alcohol is a serious sin.  While the goal is noble, unite the church by focusing on only things that matter, since we can't agree on what matters, it will never happen. 

[GoldenEagle]

The OP makes sense, except people won't agree on the difference between the three choices.  Lets look at one of the most controversial doctrines, the Sabbath. 

 

Biblical Truth:  Honoring the Sabbath is one of the Ten Commandments.

 

Ah yes the Sabbath...

Biblical Truth: Honoring the Sabbath is one of the Ten Commandments. However, in light of Acts 15 does the Sabbath really apply to Gentiles? Or is it like circumcision was the issue for Judaizers in the early Church?

 

Please feel free to read of all of Acts 15 in context… And of course you or others may disagree with me. Here’s what stands out to me though in looking at this passage.

Acts 15:1-2, 28-29

¹ But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” ² And after Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and debate with them, Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question.

²⁸ For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: ²⁹ that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.

Since the elders of the Church in Jerusalem basically instructed Gentiles to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from drinking blood, from eating was had been strangled, and from sexual immorality… Does the command to follow the Sabbath apply to Gentiles? It seems like the Apostles didn’t believe so nor were they imposing such teachings on Gentiles. Seems to me like saying one must keep the Sabbath to be saved is counter what the Bible teaches us.

 

What do you think brother? How do you view this passage?

God bless,

GE

[GoldenEagle]

Personal Conviction:  Don't Work On Sunday or Saturday

Personal Choice:  Avoid Working On Saturday or Sunday.  Everyone needs at least one day of rest.

 

There are people in the church that believe that it is a serious sin to work on Saturday and some who believe it is a serious sin to work on Sunday (the Christian Sabbath).  They won't simply agree to disagree because in their way of thinking, keeping the Sabbath is a salvation issue.  You used alcohol as an example.  Some believe taking on sip of a drink with alcohol is a serious sin.  While the goal is noble, unite the church by focusing on only things that matter, since we can't agree on what matters, it will never happen. 

 

I think it's probably a good idea to not work on Saturday or Sunday. But not everyone can do so depending on their job. I also agree people should take some time to rest during the week.

I understand that some people view the Sabbath or Alcohol consumption as a salvation issue. That is unfortunate. Clearly though, the Bible teaches otherwise. However, that is not the Biblical truth and they are confusing personal convictions/preferences with Biblical truth. Salvation is through faith in Jesus by God's grace alone. By His Holy Spirit alone. For His Glory alone.

I hope that one day we are able to agree on what matters. Perhaps it will take serious persecution for us to agree on what matters and give each other room for differing views (without being called lost or a heretic). I know that when Christ returns we will agree on what matters.

God bless,

GE

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

Question: How does drinking alcohol say in moderation (we do so on my wife’s birthday just the two of us) sacrifice my relationship with God?  

 

I am not saying that it does.  I am saying that the way we answer such questions need to be from an inward motivation to protect our relationship with God at all costs, rather than asking from a motivation of wanting see how much we can get away with or from a slavish obedience to a set of rules.

 

 

So sounds like what you're saying is we need to be balanced. Not legalistic or libertarian (see ) in our approach to Scripture. Placing God first in our lives. Is that the essence of what your saying brother?

In Christ,

GE

 

What I am saying is that our decisions about what we do and don't do should come from an inner God-given desire to be holy at any cost and to allow nothing in our lives that would in any way jeopardize any part of the relationship we have with God.   And that is different for different people.  For some, it may be a particular genre of music for others it could be a genre of movies or TV shows or video games.  For someone else, it could even be a hobby.   The innocence of the act isn't the issue.  If it cuts in on our relationship with God at any point, it is a problem.

[Sheniy]

@ Sheniy

I think alcohol is a pretty easy topic to address. Now, if we were to approach end times doctrine (you mentioned relatives disagreeing on rapture lol), predestination/free will (Calvinism/Armenianism), abortion, homosexuality, or other harder issues this way (looking at Biblical truth, personal convictions, and personal preference) perhaps there would be more dialogue and less in-fighting in the Church. Yes there is absolute truth. But in some areas there may be good Biblical backing to more than one view. Why can’t we respect one another and agree to disagree on the non-essentials?

 

*cheers and thumbs up*  YES.  Amen!

 

Discussions on biblical topics are frequent (and heated) in my family, yet we still manage to speak to each other afterwards.  My mom and her sister are really close despite their disagreement on the rapture.  My mom takes Genesis 1 literally, and my dad is more open to evolution (and, er, aliens...).  Their debates have gotten really intense, but they get over it.  My dad is a cessationist as far as the gifts of the Spirit go, and, uh...let's just say he didn't approve of my choice of bible school...haha. 

 

I've seen unity in a family despite huge differences in bible doctrines.  Not sure why it's so hard among members of the family of Christ.

 

Of interest a friend called me a heretic and a false teacher recently for disagreeing with his interpretation of Scripture on tithing. Particularly when we discussed specific passages starting from the OT to the NT together and the Biblical evidence for his position (all Christians must tithe or give 10% of their income or be cursed) was rather weak.  He defriended me on Facebook and said he didn’t know if we could hang out together anymore. We’re having coffee this week to talk things over further and sort it all out.

  I've heard that position on tithing preached in churches. Usually when they want money...

 

  That's a pretty intense reaction, though.  Wow.  (Cut off from Facebook, even!  That's the way to make it "official", I guess...)  You should show him the passages in the bible where Jesus says to give everything you have.  See what he says about that.

 

I know what that's like, though.  I came pretty close to being excommunicated from the church I grew up in.  I was the "black sheep" of the church family.  What did I do?  I went to bible college.  Yep.  I moved across the country to a tongues-speaking, Holy Spirit focused, birthed-out-of-revival-fire bible school (it was so awesome).

 

  My home church tolerated me after I moved back, but mainly because of my parents.  My mom was already questioning the pastor on a certain pet doctrine or three ("Uh, hi.  You know how you teach this?  Well, this is what the bible says..."), and they didn't want to push her away by kicking me out. 

 

Funny thing, one of those pet doctrines of my old church was an intolerance for those who didn't believe exactly what they did.    They, apparently, had all the answers, and if you didn't agree with them, you weren't a true Christian. Their reasoning for this came from a few verses in the New Testament that they took literally.  They believed that if you joined them in Holy Communion with the saints and you didn't have "perfect' faith (i.e. agree with them), you were contaminating the circle of true believers. Or something.  Anyway...

 

Hope you clear things up with your friend.  I'll keep ya in my prayers.

 

Question: When you drank the alcohol (not knowing it was breaking the rules) were you an enrolled student at the Bible college (for the summer)? What happened?

It was during the break between school semesters.  I was home for the summer, but still technically a student.  It was the year I turned 21, and I was with family at my dad's cabin.  Someone offered me the wine cooler...I think it was my mom, actually, so proud of her grown-up daughter.  It was the most alcohol I'd had at one time ever.  I really didn't think much of it.  Sort of like soda, but it made me sleepy...

 

Anyway, my roommates didn't rat on me.  I think they believed me when I said I didn't know the rule.  And I showed them in the bible that alcohol itself isn't evil, but we shouldn't abuse it.  Some of them were new Christians who came from a lifestyle of parties and drinking, so to them, it was never just one wine cooler.  To them, alcohol itself was a part of their sinful past.

 

I got in touch with one of those roommates about five years later.  She was sporting two brand new tattoos.   I had to really stretch my thinking not to point my finger and say "you heathen, you!!!"  They were really cool tattoos, though, based on the ministry she was in. 

[Sheniy]

Question: How does drinking alcohol say in moderation (we do so on my wife’s birthday just the two of us) sacrifice my relationship with God?  

I am not saying that it does.  I am saying that the way we answer such questions need to be from an inward motivation to protect our relationship with God at all costs, rather than asking from a motivation of wanting see how much we can get away with or from a slavish obedience to a set of rules.

 

So sounds like what you're saying is we need to be balanced. Not legalistic or libertarian (see ) in our approach to Scripture. Placing God first in our lives. Is that the essence of what your saying brother?

In Christ,

GE

What I am saying is that our decisions about what we do and don't do should come from an inner God-given desire to be holy at any cost and to allow nothing in our lives that would in any way jeopardize any part of the relationship we have with God.   And that is different for different people.  For some, it may be a particular genre of music for others it could be a genre of movies or TV shows or video games.  For someone else, it could even be a hobby.   The innocence of the act isn't the issue.  If it cuts in on our relationship with God at any point, it is a problem.

I agree with this.

The problem in the church comes when I say "alcohol/rock music/knitting is bad for me, therefore it is bad for everyone," and I hold others to that standard. Or if I say, "look, I gave all of my possessions to the poor. You should, too, if you want to be as good as me." I've heard that one, before.