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GoldenEagle

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Blessings Golden Eagle

 

If anything is good it is Christ in us. This may surprise you (or it may not) but I'm not a very patient person at times lol. This (differentiating Biblical truth from personal conviction or preference) is something that I've been trying to sort through. I figured Worthy was a good place to get feedback and grow together. You are loved sister. :thumbsup:

LOL....Beloved Brother in Christ,yes indeed,I am very surprised......would not have ever imagined that you are not a patient person!!!!You seem so patient in taking time to help people understand exactly what you say,you communicate so well....but perhaps that is where you are patient & (like me)not in other areas   

    I am also surprised that you say you are trying to sort out differentiating Biblical Truths from personal convictions.preferences....it appears to me that you have a very clear perspective

     At one time in my life I might have seen these as 3 very separate things ,I hope I can express my thoughts as I can see them in my own mind's eye.As time goes on & having been transformed into a new creature in Christ,the old self is such a faded memory....almost as if I remember someone else's life ......from time to time the flesh will try to emerge but I have come to know how unreliable my heart & mind is & the spirit has become much stronger than it (by the power of the Holy Spirit & to the Glory of God,not by any efforts of mine)....But I so depend on the Heart & Mind of Christ who abides in me....my personal convictions & preferences are Biblical Truth (as I  walk in spirit & in TRUTH)...because they are His.

     As we strive for perfection we we rely on the Holy Spirit,truly we have died to ourselves when we come to that place (or that time)when we have not any reservations..............when I find myself thinking"hmm,what should I do?'That is when I know I am not walking in spirit ,that is when I know I have not put on the full Armor of God,I am out of focus,not in the Word,not in prayer etc........I live for Christ Jesus,I live because of Him ,I live in Him & He in Me.............I cannot live without Him,,,,,my life,my convictions,preferences are not my own.....do you know what I mean?    AHHH,Glory to God in the Highest!!!!!Halleluliah!

                                                                                                                                    With love in Christ,Kwik

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@Sheniy from

 

Re: Unity
Perhaps unity in the members of the family of Christ is hard because we often feel we can’t associate with those who think or believe differently than us.

 

Re: Tithing
Funny enough part of the discussion centered around a church wanting to build more satellite churches. I was saying that perhaps a new church start or even local outreach might be better use of say $8-10 million towards a new campus.

 

Re: Friend
I’ve gone round and round with my friend. God did some pretty miraculous things in his life after he started tithing. So he has a hard time believing that tithing the way he has been taught it (a command to the modern day Church) isn’t Biblical. Of course he thinks Dave Ramsey and Joel Osteen are great teachers as well. Thanks for the prayers.

 

Re: Speaking in Tongues
We’ve had quite a few lively discussions here at Worthy on the topic. To me if someone wants to speak in a personal prayer language in worship to God that is between them and the Holy Spirit. But among some people (and denominations) that is a very sticky subject.

 

Re: Pet Doctrine

Ironic? The church you speak of was intolerant of anyone who believed differently than them. If you don’t believe 100% like them you were contaminating the circle of “true believers”? Wow. Sounds a bit cultish to me. Not that doesn’t happen elsewhere.
 

Re: School
If you were 21 and drinking at your home I don’t see what the issue is. When I went to Seminary they had the same rule. But the kicker was while you were a current student defined as someone who was enrolled in classes. The justification for this rule was to avoid all appearances of evil. Right…

God bless,

GE

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Blessings Golden Eagle

 

If anything is good it is Christ in us. This may surprise you (or it may not) but I'm not a very patient person at times lol. This (differentiating Biblical truth from personal conviction or preference) is something that I've been trying to sort through. I figured Worthy was a good place to get feedback and grow together. You are loved sister. :thumbsup:

LOL....Beloved Brother in Christ,yes indeed,I am very surprised......would not have ever imagined that you are not a patient person!!!!You seem so patient in taking time to help people understand exactly what you say,you communicate so well....but perhaps that is where you are patient & (like me)not in other areas   

    I am also surprised that you say you are trying to sort out differentiating Biblical Truths from personal convictions.preferences....it appears to me that you have a very clear perspective

     At one time in my life I might have seen these as 3 very separate things ,I hope I can express my thoughts as I can see them in my own mind's eye.As time goes on & having been transformed into a new creature in Christ,the old self is such a faded memory....almost as if I remember someone else's life ......from time to time the flesh will try to emerge but I have come to know how unreliable my heart & mind is & the spirit has become much stronger than it (by the power of the Holy Spirit & to the Glory of God,not by any efforts of mine)....But I so depend on the Heart & Mind of Christ who abides in me....my personal convictions & preferences are Biblical Truth (as I  walk in spirit & in TRUTH)...because they are His.

     As we strive for perfection we we rely on the Holy Spirit,truly we have died to ourselves when we come to that place (or that time)when we have not any reservations..............when I find myself thinking"hmm,what should I do?'That is when I know I am not walking in spirit ,that is when I know I have not put on the full Armor of God,I am out of focus,not in the Word,not in prayer etc........I live for Christ Jesus,I live because of Him ,I live in Him & He in Me.............I cannot live without Him,,,,,my life,my convictions,preferences are not my own.....do you know what I mean?    AHHH,Glory to God in the Highest!!!!!Halleluliah!

                                                                                                                                    With love in Christ,Kwik

 

You are loved sister. :)

I used to believe that tithing was a requirement for all Believers. I had a discussion with a member here... I can't remember who at the moment and was shown that tithing is in fact an OT principle. When I tried to defend my position I realized the only thing I could defend was giving cheerfully is what Christians should be about. It was something I was taught in the churches I grew up in errantly. Tithing as a command for Christians is still taught as a Biblical truth today using very loose Biblical backing. I also realized that more imporntatly than 10% of my income God wanted 100% of my life. That's a lot harder to do or life by. A lot of people call it stewardship.

Me? I don't want to be a tither. I want to be a cheerful giver and a good steward of what God has given me.

I also used to think that dancing, drinking alcohol, gambling, a slew of other things were 100% evil and sins. That what I was taught growing up in the church. Oh and don't get me started on what I thought about tattoos, modesty, music, movies, etc.

 

Yet we don't all struggle with the same things... To one it may be a vice while to another a casual pass time.

Thankfully, there's grace and freedom in Jesus. God's Word is good for helping us to understand the truth through the Holy Spirit. :thumbsup:

God bless,

GE

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A. Doctrine:        1 Tim.2:9 NKJV   only says that " the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing."   

 

It says nothing about men.

 

b.conviction:  Perhaps pride and vanity are the things that needs to be dealt with.  If a man is proud of his body, he should cover it up.  Women who are proud of their hair should cover it, and neither should dress in costly clothing which also lends to pride and vanity.  Moderation may be the key word;   we should desire to not call attention to ourselves.

c preference:   However I do find that I am embarrassed when I see a man in a speedo.  Even fig leaves are better than that.   :blush2:

 

Sorry sister I didn't see 1 Tim 2:9 in the original quote. I guess that was the passage you referencing. Makes sense. :thumbsup:

Interesting that you'd base this idea of modesty on this passage. Here it is in context...

1 Tim. 2:8-15

I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling; likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, 10 but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works. 11 Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. 1I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve; 14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. 15 Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.

Perhaps the women in this passage were flaunting their riches and trying to stand out? Notice the description following: "braided hair, gold, pearls, or costly attire" in the following section I underlined above. I propose the purpose of these women was to show off and to flaunt their social status. Not to show skin as often we think of in discussions about modesty today.

 

Also curious how do you view verse 9 in context of verse 12 a little further down?

Also, we should probably define how we're using the term "modesty" or "modest". We may have different definitio

To me  definitions of modest that come to mind:

A. free from ostentation or showy extravagance

or

B. having or showing regard for the decencies of behavior, speech, dress, etc.; decent

or

C. not extreme or excessive; moderate

D.  all of the above

I think motivation (why you're dressing, talking, etc a certain way) and attitude (behavior) really come into play in the whole discussion about modesty. I also would say that it's not just women that need to be given a word of caution in this discussion. But it often is women who bear the brunt of the burden of this discussion on modesty

What do you think

In Christ,

GE

 

Interpreting scripture with scripture, I go back to 1 Peter 3:1-6 AMP In like manner you married women, be submissive to your OWN HUSBANDS ---subordinate yourselves as secondary to and dependent on them, and adapt yourselves to them.   So that even if any do not obey the Word, they may be won over not by discussion but by the lives of their wives, when they observe the pure and modest way in which you conduct yourselves, together with your reverence---to respect, defer to, revere him. 

3.  Let not yours be the external adorning with interweaving and knotting of the hair, the wearing of jewelry or  changes of cloths;  4. but let it be the the hidden adorning and beauty of the heart, with the incorruptible and unfading charm of a GENTLE AND PEACEFUL SPIRIT, WHICH IS NOT ANXIOUS OR WROUGHT UP, BUT IS VERY PRECIOUS IN THE SIGHT OF GOD.  

 

1 Tim. 2:9a AMP  Also that women adorn themselves modestly and appropriately, and sensibly in seemly apparel, not with hair arrangement or gold or pearls, or expensive clothing.

 

I left out added words that were in brackets.  Often peaceful spirit is also interpreted as quiet spirit.  So I believe the quietness and submissiveness in 1 Tim 2:9-12 refer to the spirit of humility and quiet peacefulness as opposed to being argumentative, disruptive or desiring to be in control.  So we are to learn with a quiet submissive spirit, with due regard for those in authority.  Anyone in rebellion to those in authority is vulnerable to deception.

 

Changes of clothes is usually interpreted to mean riches and expensive clothing since the poor would not have a change of clothes. Modest and appropriate have to do with not being overly revealing.  A modest swim suit would attempt to be less revealing and still be functionally appropriate.  (Being fully clothed could lead to drowning.)  An appropriate outfit for active sports would have to do with sensible body temperature control as well as using moderation.  Dressing to "advertise" the body can be dangerous to women.     

 

 It  has everything to do with our spirit which in turn produces our attitudes and behavior.    

And it is perhaps closely tied to humility in regard not teaching or taking authority over men as well as dressing with modest restraint..  

 

Purity and modesty are a manner of life, which are reflected by the way we dress.  This modestly might include a desire to not draw attention to ones self or not be ostentatious.  It is also to be seemly and appropriate to the situation.    

I have to add that dressing in an alluring way for our husbands is well within propriety.  But doing so to attract other men is not.   Bathing in the nude is appropriate when in private but is not when in public.  We have showers for women or men only at public schools and pools.  Yet some of this is cultural.  Japan has public bath houses.  Preference C is to remain private.  I don't even want to share bath water with anyone but family.  

 

A man swaggering boldly and ostentatiously,while looking around to see who all are watching him, is not being modest, seemly or humble.   

 

Did I answer your questions, GE? 

 

Now I have one for you:  .  v.15.  What does being saved by child bearing mean?  My AMP reads:   Nevertheless (the sentence put upon women of pain in childbearing does not hinder their souls salvation), and they shall be saved if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control; [saved indeed] through Child bearing, that is, by the birth of the [divine] Child.

I don't see this as being the literal translation, but perhaps that is what it refers to.  I just don't know.  Many translations have child in plural: bearing children.

Blessings,

Willa

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Purity and modesty are a manner of life, which are reflected by the way we dress.  This modestly might include a desire to not draw attention to ones self or not be ostentatious.  It is also to be seemly and appropriate to the situation.    

 

So if a group of people go to a water park... The women/girls are wearing swim suits at the water park. And a few women decide to wear long dresses down to their ankles and t-shirts are they being modest? :help:

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Did I answer your questions, GE? 

Yes sister. Thanks for sharing your heart and Scripture. :thumbsup:

 

 

Now I have one for you:  .  v.15.  What does being saved by child bearing mean?  My AMP reads:   Nevertheless (the sentence put upon women of pain in childbearing does not hinder their souls salvation), and they shall be saved if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control; [saved indeed] through Child bearing, that is, by the birth of the [divine] Child.

 

I don't see this as being the literal translation, but perhaps that is what it refers to.  I just don't know.  Many translations have child in plural: bearing children.

1 Tim. 2:13-15

13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve; 14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. 15 Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.

 

It is pretty clear to me that Paul is referencing Eve in verse 13. What do you think?

God bless,

GE

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Guest Butero

 

The OP makes sense, except people won't agree on the difference between the three choices.  Lets look at one of the most controversial doctrines, the Sabbath. 

 

Biblical Truth:  Honoring the Sabbath is one of the Ten Commandments.

 

Ah yes the Sabbath...

Biblical Truth: Honoring the Sabbath is one of the Ten Commandments. However, in light of Acts 15 does the Sabbath really apply to Gentiles? Or is it like circumcision was the issue for Judaizers in the early Church?

 

Please feel free to read of all of Acts 15 in context… And of course you or others may disagree with me. Here’s what stands out to me though in looking at this passage.

Acts 15:1-2, 28-29

1 But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” And after Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and debate with them, Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question.

28 For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: 29 that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.

Since the elders of the Church in Jerusalem basically instructed Gentiles to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from drinking blood, from eating was had been strangled, and from sexual immorality… Does the command to follow the Sabbath apply to Gentiles? It seems like the Apostles didn’t believe so nor were they imposing such teachings on Gentiles. Seems to me like saying one must keep the Sabbath to be saved is counter what the Bible teaches us.

 

What do you think brother? How do you view this passage?

God bless,

GE

 

I don't think that passage was an all encompassing list of rules for gentiles.  If it was, then it would mean that those few things are more important than all other laws, and the gentiles still must keep certain laws to be saved.  I think that what he was saying is that the gentiles are not required to keep the ceremonial laws and the laws of separation.  The question is, would keeping the Sabbath be one of those laws that doesn't apply to the gentiles.  I personally think that the Sabbath law that said nobody could work on Saturday was symbolic of the rest we would now enter into when we cast our burdens on Jesus and enter into his rest.  That is how I interpret the Sabbath teachings in Hebrews.  There are others that interpret the same passage to mean we must all keep the Saturday Sabbath.  My main point is that we all have different views of what are salvation issues. 

 

Lets look at the passage your brought up.  I could take that passage and say that if someone is hungry, and eats meat that died through strangulation, they lose their salvation.  If we take it as all the gentiles need be concerned with, they could steal and remain saved because it wasn't one of the big three.  You have to take this in light of the entire Bible. 

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The two opposites are:

 

World Council of Churches tries to achieve unity on a communion level. As an ideal, such unity would be so fantastic, but achieved through so political an organ as WCC, one comes to think of the end time prophecies and the great deception.

 

How much into the truth the original churches  of Asia Minor were, and did those meetings of Nikea and Chalcedon bring us closer to it? I'd want to believe that. The Holy Trinity, the two natures of Jesus Christ, together, not mixed. Ever since history has been coming this way, and we have our conceptions about these matters.

 

I believe neither in the monophysist version, nor in the Nestorius doctrine.

 

Is it possible to pray with the representatives of these churches? Do they believe in the same Christ as I do? Jesus is risen, and He's the Lord. So much all Christians should be able to agree on. 

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I don't think that passage was an all encompassing list of rules for gentiles.  If it was, then it would mean that those few things are more important than all other laws, and the gentiles still must keep certain laws to be saved.  I think that what he was saying is that the gentiles are not required to keep the ceremonial laws and the laws of separation.  The question is, would keeping the Sabbath be one of those laws that doesn't apply to the gentiles.  I personally think that the Sabbath law that said nobody could work on Saturday was symbolic of the rest we would now enter into when we cast our burdens on Jesus and enter into his rest.  That is how I interpret the Sabbath teachings in Hebrews.  There are others that interpret the same passage to mean we must all keep the Saturday Sabbath.  My main point is that we all have different views of what are salvation issues. 

 

 

Lets look at the passage your brought up.  I could take that passage and say that if someone is hungry, and eats meat that died through strangulation, they lose their salvation.  If we take it as all the gentiles need be concerned with, they could steal and remain saved because it wasn't one of the big three.  You have to take this in light of the entire Bible. 

 

 

The way I read Acts 15 these were guidelines set forth by the Jerusalem council for the Gentiles. By avoiding food sacrificed to idols they would not be involved in idolatry worship for example.

I think the Apostles and elders in Jerusalem were saying the opposite. That the law was not the most important thing. Particularly the ceremonial laws given to Israel (circumcision and Sabbath worship included). I do agree you have to interpret the Bible in light of other passages in the Bible. Jesus said the law could be summed up in loving God and loving people. (Mark 12:28-31 and Matt. 22:36-40) There is no greater commandment than these and the two commands summarize the Law.

Yes, we do have different views in the Church of what are salvation issues. I talked to a brother in Christ last night who thought that tithing was a Biblical command. He views anyone who believes different as a heretic. Anyone who promotes simply generous giving in a cheerful manner as the Holy Spirit leads to be a false teacher. :(

Funny thing is he thinks people who are on unemployment checks don’t have to tithe. He also came to this realization (everyone who doesn’t tithe is a heretic and everyone who teaches against tithing is a false teacher) about a year ago. He happened to start tithing (giving 10%) about a year ago. Ironic? Lol. ;)

Yet not all of what we claim to be salvation issues really are salvation issues. That’s my point I guess with this thread. Do you see brother?

God bless,

GE

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Guest shiloh357

 

I don't think that passage was an all encompassing list of rules for gentiles.  If it was, then it would mean that those few things are more important than all other laws, and the gentiles still must keep certain laws to be saved.  I think that what he was saying is that the gentiles are not required to keep the ceremonial laws and the laws of separation.  The question is, would keeping the Sabbath be one of those laws that doesn't apply to the gentiles.  I personally think that the Sabbath law that said nobody could work on Saturday was symbolic of the rest we would now enter into when we cast our burdens on Jesus and enter into his rest.  That is how I interpret the Sabbath teachings in Hebrews.  There are others that interpret the same passage to mean we must all keep the Saturday Sabbath.  My main point is that we all have different views of what are salvation issues. 

 

 

Lets look at the passage your brought up.  I could take that passage and say that if someone is hungry, and eats meat that died through strangulation, they lose their salvation.  If we take it as all the gentiles need be concerned with, they could steal and remain saved because it wasn't one of the big three.  You have to take this in light of the entire Bible. 

 

 

The way I read Acts 15 these were guidelines set forth by the Jerusalem council for the Gentiles. By avoiding food sacrificed to idols they would not be involved in idolatry worship for example.

I think the Apostles and elders in Jerusalem were saying the opposite. That the law was not the most important thing. Particularly the ceremonial laws given to Israel (circumcision and Sabbath worship included). I do agree you have to interpret the Bible in light of other passages in the Bible. Jesus said the law could be summed up in loving God and loving people. (Mark 12:28-31 and Matt. 22:36-40) There is no greater commandment than these and the two commands summarize the Law.

Yes, we do have different views in the Church of what are salvation issues. I talked to a brother in Christ last night who thought that tithing was a Biblical command. He views anyone who believes different as a heretic. Anyone who promotes simply generous giving in a cheerful manner as the Holy Spirit leads to be a false teacher. :(

Funny thing is he thinks people who are on unemployment checks don’t have to tithe. He also came to this realization (everyone who doesn’t tithe is a heretic and everyone who teaches against tithing is a false teacher) about a year ago. He happened to start tithing (giving 10%) about a year ago. Ironic? Lol. ;)

Yet not all of what we claim to be salvation issues really are salvation issues. That’s my point I guess with this thread. Do you see brother?

God bless,

GE

 

The four laws given to the Gentile believers by the Jerusalem council set forth the bare essentials for table fellowship with Jews.  To of them were related to the dietary laws.  They had nothing to do with salvation, but the Gentile believers wanted to be in the company of Jewish believers, they were told that these four rules had to be observed.

 

So if you were a Gentile believer and you took these four laws seriously, it would mean that you would have to find meat that met those two dietary requirements and the only place you could be sure of that would be at a Jewish butcher shop and that would by extension limit the kind of meat you could eat (no pork, for example).

 

These were the "starter pack."   Peter said that they would start them off with these four things and that Moses is taught every Sabbath and they would learn the rest of the commandments as they attended the synagogues.   At that point it is clear that they expected the Gentile believers to be participants in the Jewish believing community.

 

It really becomes problematic when we start trying to determine what "salvation issues" are.   It is as if the only important things in the Bible are what we deem as "salvation issues," and everything else is unimportant.   The Bible doesn't parse the Scriptures that way.  It doesn't present the commandments of God on a sliding scale of importance so that we can decide how we will live based on what is convenient for us.

 

The Bible isn't a smorgasbord where we pick what is important or essential and what isn't.  We are not given that authority or that option by God.   He expects obedience in all things, and that means being faithful in the little things, too.  We are accountable for all of it.  And we are not given the option of discarding those commandments that we think will crimp our style.

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