Apologetic on Slavery & Rape in the Bible

[Bonky]

LOL!  ok....will address the Midianites when I have more time...I'm posting on the run here...and yes, the Israelites were entangling themselves with different nites regularly

 

where did God say He was ok with human sacrifice...?  if you are wishing to address such things, references would be helpful...thanks

 

Ok I thought Jesus was considered the ultimate/perfect sacrifice.  God required that Jesus die for the sins of mankind so it seems he was ok with human sacrifice in at least one context.

[Sevenseas]

 

LOL!  ok....will address the Midianites when I have more time...I'm posting on the run here...and yes, the Israelites were entangling themselves with different nites regularly

 

where did God say He was ok with human sacrifice...?  if you are wishing to address such things, references would be helpful...thanks

 

Ok I thought Jesus was considered the ultimate/perfect sacrifice.  God required that Jesus die for the sins of mankind so it seems he was ok with human sacrifice in at least one context.

 

 

 

Except that Jesus was both God and man...yeah, except for that one little fact

 

Why do I start to get the feeling you may think you are being clever?  Please don't take that as an insult....but it does appear to me you may believe that you had me on something...

 

of course maybe I'm being overly sensitive?  

 

we can exercise some in depth study on the topic of Christ being the only sacrifice acceptable to God but that is a deep and wide subject...takes the entire Bible to really grasp it

unless one simply wants to accept by faith that Christ died for their sins and rose again from the dead 

[Bonky]

 

Except that Jesus was both God and man...yeah, except for that one little fact

 

Why do I start to get the feeling you may think you are being clever?  Please don't take that as an insult....but it does appear to me you may believe that you had me on something...

 

of course maybe I'm being overly sensitive?  

 

we can exercise some in depth study on the topic of Christ being the only sacrifice acceptable to God but that is a deep and wide subject...takes the entire Bible to really grasp it

unless one simply wants to accept by faith that Christ died for their sins and rose again from the dead 

 

 

We got sidetracked with human sacrifice but my original response to your comments still stand in my mind.   It sounded like you were wanting to distance "God" away from the fact that according to the bible it was YHWH that told Moses to command the Israelites to commit genocide.   They then took the young women and forced them into marriage or servanthood.  This isn't being projected onto YHWH, it's the Bible telling us that YHWH did indeed request this.   

 

So your claim was that God doesn't even condone brutality, murder etc and the only way I can see to suggest this is to redefine what those words mean.  The Bible clearly states that slavery was acceptable.  The old testament had some regulations around it and in the new testament, Jesus could have easily spoken against it but never did.  In fact, in Ephesians chapter 6 it commands slaves to obey their masters.  

 

So yes I'm still puzzled as to how someone can say God isn't ok with any sort of brutality....obviously in some contexts...he absolutely is.

Edited June 10, 2014 by Bonky

[Sevenseas]

no...

 

Why would I distance God from what He says or says to do or the OT record?

 

You call in genocide...yet the Bible is clear as to why God commanded the people in the 'Promised Land' were to be dealt with in a severe manner.

 

Let's look at that:

 

In1 Samuel 15:2-3, God commanded Saul and the Israelites, “This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'" God ordered similar things when the Israelites were invading the promised land (Deuteronomy 2:34;3:6;20:16-18). Why would God have the Israelites exterminate an entire group of people, women and children included?
 

Even infants AND women were not to be spared.

 

and regarding the Canaanites:

 

In regard to the Canaanites, God commanded, “However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them — the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites — as the LORD your God has commanded you. Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the LORD your God” (Deuteronomy 20:16-18). The Israelites failed in this mission as well, and exactly what God said would happen occurred (Judges 2:1-3;1 Kings 11:5;14:24;2 Kings 16:3-4). God did not order the extermination of these people to be cruel, but rather to prevent even greater evil from occurring in the future.

 

Probably the most difficult part of these commands from God is that God ordered the death of children and infants as well. Why would God order the death of innocent children? (1) Children are not innocent (Psalm 51:5;58:3). (2) These children would have likely grown up as adherents to the evil religions and practices of their parents. (3) By ending their lives as children, God enabled them to have entrance into Heaven. We strongly believe that all children who die are accepted into Heaven by the grace and mercy of God (2 Samuel 12:22-23;Mark 10:14-15;Matthew 18:2-4).

Read more:http://www.gotquestions.org/Canaanites-extermination.html#ixzz34LDJivAU

 

Further, this is also true:

 

First, just as a beginning, it should be noted that the Israelites were not always commanded to annihilate all their enemies, only certain ones. The reasons will be suggested below.

Second, if there is plenty of evidence that the Bible is God’s Word, and there is, then for finite man to deny the Bible because he doesn’t like something or does not understand the reasons for some of what it teaches, is nothing short of arrogant rebellion against an infinite God who has revealed Himself. For evidence that the Bible is God’s Word, may I suggest Josh McDowell’s books, Evidence that Demands a Verdict and More Evidence that Demands A Verdict.

More on that here

 

And the following is also explanatory

 

(

Deuteronomy 2:33-34

)--"And the Lord our God delivered him over to us; and we defeated him with his sons and all his people. 34So we captured all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, women and children of every city. We left no survivor."

The command by God to kill all inside a city is seen by many to be immoral and a demonstration that the Bible is not true. But, we must examine the issue in light of its context--its biblical context--not in light of present-day, non-Christian assumptions. If we want to see if it is moral or not, we must know which morals are in question.

Rest of the article here

 

Why are you thinking that God commanded people to have slaves, rape women or any other sort of act that we supposedly find ungodly today?

 

Doesn't it occur to you that we have law enforcement and all kinds of laws to deal with the very things you appear to find God guilty of approving?

 

The human slave market is probaly bigger then ever, wife and child abuse is rampant (with the occaisonal abused husband), murder, rape and theft are cross cultural acts of defiance of God's commands.

 

Really, you seem to know something about the Bible, but very little of God's character or what He does and does not approve of.

 

God does not condone sin and all those who continue in sin and defiance against God, those who rebel against Him, are under judgement just like the nations God commanded the Israelites to destroy.

 

 

The Bible NEVER states that slavery is or was acceptable.  Who invented slavery?  God?  No.  People.  People invented slavery.

 

The Bible deals with society as it was and slaves were a fact.  There are quite a number of things in scripture that were culturally different but be aware that such things exist today as I already said

and God did not institute them nor does He agree with them.

 

People commit sin.  Your information is sketchy at best and just plain wrong at worst.

 

I am going to leave this conversation as I don't think you are making any effort to acknoweldge my responses; you seem to just keep bringing up the same objections.

 

I believe I have supplied some good links for you to click on and avail yourself of better knowledge concerning what the Bible says regarding your questions.  If you are truly interested,

if you are sincere in your approach, these articles will help you.

 

That's it for now.

[enoob57]

Except that Jesus was both God and man...yeah, except for that one little fact

 

Why do I start to get the feeling you may think you are being clever?  Please don't take that as an insult....but it does appear to me you may believe that you had me on something...

 

of course maybe I'm being overly sensitive?  

 

we can exercise some in depth study on the topic of Christ being the only sacrifice acceptable to God but that is a deep and wide subject...takes the entire Bible to really grasp it

unless one simply wants to accept by faith that Christ died for their sins and rose again from the dead

 

We got sidetracked with human sacrifice but my original response to your comments still stand in my mind.   It sounded like you were wanting to distance "God" away from the fact that according to the bible it was YHWH that told Moses to command the Israelites to commit genocide.   They then took the young women and forced them into marriage or servanthood.  This isn't being projected onto YHWH, it's the Bible telling us that YHWH did indeed request this.   

 

So your claim was that God doesn't even condone brutality, murder etc and the only way I can see to suggest this is to redefine what those words mean.  The Bible clearly states that slavery was acceptable.  The old testament had some regulations around it and in the new testament, Jesus could have easily spoken against it but never did.  In fact, in Ephesians chapter 6 it commands slaves to obey their masters.  

 

So yes I'm still puzzled as to how someone can say God isn't ok with any sort of brutality....obviously in some contexts...he absolutely is.

When we try to place God in a judgement chair using our limited understanding

we find ourselves in a place where Lucifer was in error as well... God alone see's

the heart of people- an in this sight through foreknowledge God moves and performs

His Perfect Will....

Your foundation(ed) error is that sins presence is the result of God's Will and it

simply cannot be by God's Own claim-

2 Peter 3:9

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count

slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should

perish, but that all should come to repentance

KJV

YET

2 Peter 2:12

12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed,

speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly

perish in their own corruption;

KJV

Love, Steven

[Bonky]

When we try to place God in a judgement chair using our limited understanding

we find ourselves in a place where Lucifer was in error as well... God alone see's

the heart of people- an in this sight through foreknowledge God moves and performs

His Perfect Will....

Your foundation(ed) error is that sins presence is the result of God's Will and it

simply cannot be by God's Own claim-

2 Peter 3:9

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count

slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should

perish, but that all should come to repentance

KJV

YET

2 Peter 2:12

12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed,

speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly

perish in their own corruption;

KJV

Love, Steven

I can understand why pious would state this, just keep in mind it would also apply to a Muslim who thinks their God wants them to destroy infidels. Who are we to judge Allah? Who are we to say it's wrong to kill the unfaithful?

If we can't make moral assessments of God, it means nothing to say he's "good".

[Guest shiloh357]

I can understand why pious would state this, just keep in mind it would also apply to a Muslim who thinks their God wants them to destroy infidels. Who are we to judge Allah? Who are we to say it's wrong to kill the unfaithful?

If we can't make moral assessments of God, it means nothing to say he's "good".

 

That isn't a fair comparison.  Muslims kill "infedels" on the grounds that they don't convert to Islam.   Muslims kill other Muslims.  In fact more Muslims die at the hands of other Muslims than from any other people.

 

God used Israel as a tool of righteous judgment on the pagan nations.   God used pagan nations a tools of judgment on Israel (Assyria, Babylon, Rome, for example).  The Canaanites were people who murdered their own children as sacrifices to their gods.  They were sexually immoral to the point that the people right down to the children were infected with sexually transmitted diseases, not to mention other ailments that stemmed from their self-destructive lifestyles and practices.

 

God gave the Canaanite over 400 years to repent and they would not repent and God judged them and He used Israel to do that.  We read in the book of Revelation about all of the judgments God is going to inflict on the people of earth because they will stubbornly refuse to repent of their sin.  None of that is immoral on God's part.  

[enoob57]

I can understand why pious would state this, just keep in mind it would also apply to a Muslim who thinks their God wants them to destroy infidels. Who are we to judge Allah? Who are we to say it's wrong to kill the unfaithful?

If we can't make moral assessments of God, it means nothing to say he's "good".

Before all that we experience in our senses Was God As Spirit... then God created!

When our greatest grandpa sinned we destroyed all pathway to God. The Who of God

was lost to us in that sin. Sin is anti-life and has no progression into eternal life!

I can understand why pious would state this, just keep in mind it would also apply to a Muslim who thinks their God wants them to destroy infidels. Who are we to judge Allah?

All that is not of God has already been judged and is awaiting sentencing...

All that see that judgment of themselves as The Righteousness of God in full agreement

with God-> God grants repentance to and in the repentance we cry out to Jesus for salvation...

Everyone who 'IS' born from God awaits His perfect timing in the fulfillment of His The 'IS'

His Word States. We are at perfect peace knowing that which is promised by The Bible (Gen-Rev)

will be as though it has already been- the glory in this is that it is built fully upon His

Word and it cannot be any other way

If we can't make moral assessments of God, it means nothing to say he's "good".

That's just it... the born of God would never even approach that pinnacle of view ->for, to be

there, one would already have considered in themselves worthy to be there... Love, Steven

[Bonky]

That isn't a fair comparison.  Muslims kill "infedels" on the grounds that they don't convert to Islam.   Muslims kill other Muslims.  In fact more Muslims die at the hands of other Muslims than from any other people.

 

God used Israel as a tool of righteous judgment on the pagan nations.   God used pagan nations a tools of judgment on Israel (Assyria, Babyon, Rome, for example).  The Canaanites were people who murdered their own children as sacrifices to their gods.  They were sexually immoral to the point that the people right down to the children were infected with sexually transmitted diseases, not to mention other ailments that stemmed from their self-destructive lifestyles and practices.

 

God gave the Canaanite over 400 years to repent and they would not repent and God judged them and He used Israel to do that.  We read in the book of Revelation about all of the judgments God is going to inflict on the people of earth because they will stubbornly refuse to repent of their sin.  None of that is immoral on God's part.

Sure it's fair, we're talking about a principle here. If God is not to be judged and he is good by definition, then this would be true for the Muslim as well. You can't just give this special protection to one God but not another. I've been told [not by you necessarily] that God created the Universe and he can do what he wants with it.

I probably wouldn't disagree with you that the God described in the OT is superior [in terms of behavior] to the God that bloodthirsty Muslims worship. I'm saying that if this principle is true, it'd be true for any creator of the Universe.

[Guest shiloh357]

Sure it's fair, we're talking about a principle here. If God is not to be judged and he is good by definition, then this would be true for the Muslim as well.

 

No, God isn't merely good.  He is also holy and righteous and cannot tolerate sin.  He owns the world and all who are in it and He can judge everyone as well.  This is not true for Allah.

 

You can't just give this special protection to one God but not another. I've been told [not by you necessarily] that God created the Universe and he can do what he wants with it.

 

God isn't like Allah at all.  Allah is cruel and capricious even toward Muslims.  Allah operates from a imperfect system of justice that forces you to perform good enough but never tells you what "good enough" is.   Devout Muslims can still go to hell.  Allah has no redemptive characteristics, where the God of Israel is redemptive by nature.

 

I probably wouldn't disagree with you that the God described in the OT is superior [in terms of behavior] to the God that bloodthirsty Muslims worship. I'm saying that if this principle is true, it'd be true for any creator of the Universe.

 

No, it wouldn't be true for any Creator of the universe.  The God of the Bible is entirely unique to any the other gods.   The other gods are purely the figment of imagination and/or probably demonic activity.

 

Islam for example is really just a another form of satanism.  Muslims don't realize it, but the Allah carries all of the characteristics that embody Satan in the Bible.  Muslim = worshiper of the Satan.