GoldenEagle Posted June 7, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.81 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted June 7, 2014 I do think that we get too carried away worrying about the human author of any of the books of the Bible, given that God is the true author, and that he only used these individuals to pen his words. It is really more of just an interest. I don't think anyone on the thread is questioning that the Holy Spirit inspired the book of Hebrews... God bless, GE This ^ Perhaps I was wrong... That's a non sequitur. Just because a book has unity with the Scriptures doesn't mean it's inspired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted June 7, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.81 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted June 7, 2014 Then you have a problem Butch, because nobody knows who the author of Hebrews is. That is the point of this thread. There is no absolute proof. I know there are books attributed to the apostles that are gnostic. I have a huge book with many of those writings in it. I know they are not scripture, but this is the Biblical canon we are speaking of. I have no doubt it is God's Word. So what now? You said, "if we're going to say the books are from God we should know that the ones who wrote them knew God." Who wrote Hebrews? I don't doubt that Hebrews is God's word either, but not just "because". There is a reason I believe that it is God's word even though the author is not given. The reason I believe it is God's word is because it is attested to by reliable men among the earliest Christians. The same men that tell me the Gospel of Mathew was written by the apostle Mathew, likewise with Mark and John. Also those writings of the apostle Paul. Anyone could have written something and put an apostle's name on it. Therefore the writing we have have to be validated and they were by these early Christians. However, I don't think we can simply say I believe Hebrews is God's word "because". I'm seeing posts in this thread that say it doesn't matter that we don't know who wrote it. If you don't know who wrote it then you can't know it was from God. However, we can know because it is attested to by those who ere there early one. However, without their attesting to it we would have no way of knowing one way or the other. Very good, Butch. You have done your research. Yes I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwikphilly Posted June 7, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 96 Topic Count: 307 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 18,136 Content Per Day: 4.63 Reputation: 27,816 Days Won: 327 Joined: 08/03/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted June 7, 2014 Blessings Butero..... It is scripture because God himself saw fit to have 66 books become part of the Biblical canon. He led men to write those books, and led others to put it in the Bible. Amen,to GOD be the Glory Wi0th love-in Christ,Kwik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butch5 Posted June 8, 2014 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 559 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 136 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/09/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/01/1962 Share Posted June 8, 2014 Just because a book was written by one of the Apostles doesn't make it the Word of God. That is where I disagree with Butch. There is a book written by Paul to the Laodiceans that appears to be authentic, but it is not the Word of God. I have read the book, and it does seem to agree with scripture, yet it is not part of the Bible. Having people agree a book was written by Peter, James, John, Paul or one of the early apostles isn't what makes it scripture. It is scripture because God himself saw fit to have 66 books become part of the Biblical canon. He led men to write those books, and led others to put it in the Bible. I don't believe it matters who the human vessels were that wrote down God's words. I don't need to know who wrote Hebrews. I personally believe Paul wrote it, but if I am wrong, it doesn't matter. If I found out down the road it was written by a man nobody had ever heard of, I would still consider it scripture. My question would be how do you know God saw fit to put 66 books in the Bible. The OT used to have more books that it does now and was still considered the Bible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inchrist1 Posted June 8, 2014 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 25 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/25/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/02/1982 Author Share Posted June 8, 2014 Just because a book was written by one of the Apostles doesn't make it the Word of God. That is where I disagree with Butch. There is a book written by Paul to the Laodiceans that appears to be authentic, but it is not the Word of God. I have read the book, and it does seem to agree with scripture, yet it is not part of the Bible. Having people agree a book was written by Peter, James, John, Paul or one of the early apostles isn't what makes it scripture. It is scripture because God himself saw fit to have 66 books become part of the Biblical canon. He led men to write those books, and led others to put it in the Bible. I don't believe it matters who the human vessels were that wrote down God's words. I don't need to know who wrote Hebrews. I personally believe Paul wrote it, but if I am wrong, it doesn't matter. If I found out down the road it was written by a man nobody had ever heard of, I would still consider it scripture. My question would be how do you know God saw fit to put 66 books in the Bible. The OT used to have more books that it does now and was still considered the Bible Butch, If today's Bible has anything in it that God didn't intend then we are all in trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGTG Posted June 8, 2014 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 14 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/12/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted June 8, 2014 (edited) ................................ Edited May 9, 2020 by AGTG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butch5 Posted June 8, 2014 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 559 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 136 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/09/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/01/1962 Share Posted June 8, 2014 Just because a book was written by one of the Apostles doesn't make it the Word of God. That is where I disagree with Butch. There is a book written by Paul to the Laodiceans that appears to be authentic, but it is not the Word of God. I have read the book, and it does seem to agree with scripture, yet it is not part of the Bible. Having people agree a book was written by Peter, James, John, Paul or one of the early apostles isn't what makes it scripture. It is scripture because God himself saw fit to have 66 books become part of the Biblical canon. He led men to write those books, and led others to put it in the Bible. I don't believe it matters who the human vessels were that wrote down God's words. I don't need to know who wrote Hebrews. I personally believe Paul wrote it, but if I am wrong, it doesn't matter. If I found out down the road it was written by a man nobody had ever heard of, I would still consider it scripture. My question would be how do you know God saw fit to put 66 books in the Bible. The OT used to have more books that it does now and was still considered the Bible Butch, If today's Bible has anything in it that God didn't intend then we are all in trouble. My point was that stuff has been removed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butch5 Posted June 8, 2014 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 559 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 136 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/09/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/01/1962 Share Posted June 8, 2014 The Bible had 80 books, but 14 were called the Apocrypha, and they were never considered part of the inerrant Word of God. They were placed in the center of the Bible and outside logical order to show they were considered less than scripture. One example is "The Rest Of Esther." To some extent, everything we hold to is by faith. It is by faith we believe the Bible is the Word of God. It is by faith we believe that the 66 books of the canon is the entire Word of God and that it is inerrant. We are on dangerous ground when we start taking the position that portions of scripture are missing or we take the position that some books that are included shouldn't be. That leaves the door open for all kinds of heresy. Not when you verify things. It's when we accept things on blind faith that we open things up to heresy. Why do you believe the Bible is God's word? I would submit that the book of Barnabas has been found contained within the Scriptures also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butch5 Posted June 9, 2014 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 559 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 136 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/09/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/01/1962 Share Posted June 9, 2014 I believe that God used men to write his word. It was like people took dictation, and wrote under the anointing of the Holy Spirit. They didn't even realize the importance of what they were writing, but God did. God then used other men to put the books together that he wanted included in a completed Bible, and that wound up making up the canon. Before I read the Bible, it was all by faith. Then I read the Bible many times over from cover to cover, and I can clearly see that everything fits together perfectly from Genesis to Revelation. There is no way this was by chance. There was no way this was just men doing a good job compiling various books. You can just tell the Bible came about through supernatural means. God was directly involved. You are saying we can verify what belongs. How? You may be able to verify who wrote various books, but that doesn't mean God wanted those books in the Bible. Even if there is a book of Barnabus and you can verify who wrote it, that doesn't mean God wants it in the Bible. There is another book attributed to Paul, and it was even mentioned in scripture, but that doesn't mean God wanted it included in the Bible just because Paul wrote it. The difference between that book and his writings that made it into the Bible in divine inspiration. Here is where we differ. I don't believe that simply finding books written by the early church and the apostles makes them scripture. I believe there were select books that God divinely inspired and he moved on men to put them together to form the Bible. In that way, we have the book of James. If somewhere down the road, another book written by James were found, it shouldn't be added to the Bible just because of the human author, because it doesn't have the same divine inspiration. That is why simply verifying the author of individual books doesn't mean anything. What you basically saying is you believe the Bible is God's word because you believe it, correct? It's just you're opinion.If you were witnessing to someone who was not a c Christian why would they believe the Bible is from God just because you believe it is? We're told in Scripture to always be ready to give an answer for the hope that we have. How can we give an answer if all we give is our opinion. God doesn't expect us to simply have blind faith, He's given hard cold evidence so that we can give an answer to the skeptic, an answer that is based in facts not opinion. Also, I'm not sure where you got the idea that I believe anything written by an apostle should be included in the cannon. The point I was makng about the book of Barnabas is that it was considered Scripture by many, yet now has been removed from the canon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butch5 Posted June 9, 2014 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 559 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 136 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/09/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/01/1962 Share Posted June 9, 2014 You are not giving anything but opinion and blind faith Butch concerning what should be in the Bible. If you aren't saying anything verified to have been written by an apostle should be included in the canon, what is the criteria? Who decides which books written by the Apostle Paul should be included? What about the book of Barnabus? Are you saying it should be included? If yes why and if no why? What canon was it included in? It wasn't in my 1611 KJV Bible, so who had it in the Bible? I am saying that God influenced those who created the canon to include what he wanted included. I believe that by faith. How can someone verify they did it right or wrong? It is still going to come down to faith. Lets look at Hebrews. Nobody has verified who wrote it to everyone's satisfaction, so is believing it belongs blind faith? If we discovered it wasn't written by Paul but by Luke, how does that prove it belongs in the Bible when you admit that not everything written by an apostle should be included. When we first started this back and forth, I thought you had a concrete method of determining scripture. It was based on it being written by an apostle. If you are not saying that, you are going by blind faith too. If I am witnessing to someone, they either believe the Bible is God's Word or they don't. I can't produce God for them either, so they either believe he is real or they don't. You aren't providing proof the Bible is the Word of God anymore than I am. I believe it is by faith, and based on having read it many times over and seeing how everything fits in place and how prophecies have come to pass. I don't believe it because someone claims to have verified who wrote what book. Then it's blind faith. I don't believe it based on blind faith, I believe it based on historical evidence, based on the testimony of reliable men. Mark and Luke were not apostles yet I accept their books as Scripture, why, because the early Christians tell me that Mark, Peter's nephew, wrote the book. They tell me that he traveled with Peter and wrote down what he heard Peter preach. They tell me that Luke wrote the book that has his name on it. I believe the Bible is God's word based on fulfilled prophecy that can be documented, both in and outside of the Scriptures. If you just believe based on blind faith then how you know those who wrote the books were from God? What about those who compiled it? The book of Barnabas was considered Scripture among some Christians in the early church, it was included with the manuscript Sinatucus, Also found were portions of the Shepard of Hermas. They are not in our Bibles today which means they were removed. Who was correct, those who inserted them, or those who removed them? God's people were the Jews and it was to them that He gave His word. The Jews reject the books of the NT does that mean they were added to the Bible since the Jews had the original Bible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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