The 5th Beast Of Daniel

[ARGOSY]

 

I don't find it hard to believe that the last beast consists of them all. And so yes, the "fifth beast" does not exist... as one extra kingdom, but as the whole world. 

 

Interesting. Not quite what I was saying but of course what is obvious to me isn't what is obvious to you. But what more can we do except try to be unbiased and prayerful and objective when interpreting the bible.

 

I specifically believe the beast will be a future Turkish Union

[ARGOSY]

On to the next topic- is the antichrist Jewish, Assyrian, both, or none of the above.

 

Both. I suspect a Kurdish Jew.

[iamlamad]

Hi Iamlamad,

 

Glad to meet you & have a chat. You do well to see that Dan. 7  could be end time kingdoms. Keep thinking on that line & look at the Super Powers of the world & you may be enlightened.

Thanks. Sorry but your post is just more nonsens.  The old Babylonion empire was IRAQ today. The Old Persian empire is Iran today. These empires were shown in Daniel because at one time they all CONTROLLED Israel. The super-powers of today do not control Israel, as Israel is a free nation.

[Paradox]

 

On to the next topic- is the antichrist Jewish, Assyrian, both, or none of the above.

 

Both. I suspect a Kurdish Jew.

 

The idea that the AC is a single man is true and false.

A single man is at the top of an organisation which has its head as the "Vicar of Christ on earth." (Only one guess allowed here).

Another text comes to mind II Thess 2:3 "that man of sin be revealed..."

 

So is it a single man, yes, but no, because the man of sin is not just a single mortal with a strange hat on.

 

The Bible also talks about the scriptures that help or furnish the mind of the "man of God."

This does not mean that there is only one man of God, which incidentally there is - only Jesus Christ. So the answer as to whether there is a single man of God is also yes and no.

 

If Christ is the head of His body the church, then it is as it were one man - a man of God. That is what we strive for,

And if Satan is the controlling spirit of rebellion in all that refuse to be connected to Christ, then they are all his body and he is the head.

 

So we have two men, one of God and the other "the man of sin."

 

The man of sin cannot be revealed or come true unless every person's destiny or choice has been made in regards to salvation.

 

This time of a final decision will come, when God declares "let him who is righteous remain righteous and him who is filthy remain filthy..."

 

Only then will it be clear that the world is acting as one on a particular issue which makes the divide.

 

No sooner has the man of sin formed, when it is destroyed.

 

In the mean time we have a system on earth which is vying for our attention and worship. And it will enforce its particular dogma through deceptive miracles. 

 

The point of all the prophecies is to expose this AC before it occurs and not when it occurs, when its too late.

 

It has successfully caused churches to believe in a future AC to this very purpose.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Argosy,

 

I think this discussion is on 2 threads but I`ll post it here. Thank you again for your detailed reply on your understanding. Now you said in #57 `sticking with the theme of Rome being iron,`.... This is precisely the point of contention that I have with this view & here are my reasons.

 

In Dan. 2 we know that God has given us an overview of the World Rulers in the form of the Great Image. God shows ahead of time who will Rule & the strength of their power. King Neb. had absolute power, King Darius had less - laws, etc a lessoning of power till the last, the divided kingdom. Thus we have the parts of the Image referring to the Ruler (& his kingdom) & we are also given additional information with regard to their power - the metals -gold, silver, etc.

 

Thus the Body part -Head is King Neb. of Babylon & his power is absolute signified by the metal, Gold.

The Body part - Chest & Arms are King Darius of the Medes & Persians & his power was less, signified by the metal, Silver. (`inferior Kingdom ...` Dan.2: 39)

The Body part - Belly & thighs are Alexander of the Greeks & his power was less, signified by the metal, Bronze. 

The Body part - Legs are Caesar of the Romans & his power was signified by the metal, Iron - strong. (Dan.2; 4)

 

So we can see that the Body parts are the Rulers while the metals signify their power.

 

Thus the `Legs are Rome,` while the `Iron,` is strength.

 

This error of `Rome = Iron`  should be `Rome = Legs,` `Iron = strength.` 

 

 

The second error I see in discerning Daniel 2 is that some people think that the 2 legs are the 2 parts of Rome after it was judged by God. This cannot be the case as every Ruler of the Image is shown as the Ruler & not after it has fallen. (ie Not ruling the world) Babylon, or the Medes & Persians or Greece are not shown after their Empire has fallen. The 4 parts of the Greecian Empire for example is not shown as 4 thighs, so to just make the 2 legs as the parts of Rome AFTER it was ruling is not consistent.

 

I know this will be hard for some people to understand, but if we are desiring to `handle accurately,` God`s word then we need to not just look superficially or what seems obvious to us but actually read what God says with correct English. (ie. Rome = Legs, + Iron = strength.)

 

 

Thus the `feet & toes,` have yet to be discussed. But I will wait for any comments you may have.

[ARGOSY]

 

 

On to the next topic- is the antichrist Jewish, Assyrian, both, or none of the above.

 

Both. I suspect a Kurdish Jew.

 

The idea that the AC is a single man is true and false.

A single man is at the top of an organisation which has its head as the "Vicar of Christ on earth." (Only one guess allowed here).

Another text comes to mind II Thess 2:3 "that man of sin be revealed..."

 

So is it a single man, yes, but no, because the man of sin is not just a single mortal with a strange hat on.

 

The Bible also talks about the scriptures that help or furnish the mind of the "man of God."

This does not mean that there is only one man of God, which incidentally there is - only Jesus Christ. So the answer as to whether there is a single man of God is also yes and no.

 

If Christ is the head of His body the church, then it is as it were one man - a man of God. That is what we strive for,

And if Satan is the controlling spirit of rebellion in all that refuse to be connected to Christ, then they are all his body and he is the head.

 

So we have two men, one of God and the other "the man of sin."

 

The man of sin cannot be revealed or come true unless every person's destiny or choice has been made in regards to salvation.

 

This time of a final decision will come, when God declares "let him who is righteous remain righteous and him who is filthy remain filthy..."

 

Only then will it be clear that the world is acting as one on a particular issue which makes the divide.

 

No sooner has the man of sin formed, when it is destroyed.

 

In the mean time we have a system on earth which is vying for our attention and worship. And it will enforce its particular dogma through deceptive miracles. 

 

The point of all the prophecies is to expose this AC before it occurs and not when it occurs, when its too late.

 

It has successfully caused churches to believe in a future AC to this very purpose.

 

 

Yes I agree the spirit of antichrist is already here and has been so for ~2000 years. And so there have been many "antichrists". But the final "man of sin" as per 2 Thess 2 is still to come, and will be an actual man in Jerusalem as per 2 Thess 2.

 

I don't fully agree about "every person's" choice has been made, but I do agree this applies to the Gentiles. I believe a few scriptures indicate the revealing occurs after the Gentiles have made their choice, the Fullness of the Nations has to be complete before the revealing occurs. But Jews will still have their choice for that last 3.5 year period, but that is another discussion altogether.

 

I'm expressing the 3 Roman stages in terms you may just agree with:

Rome   then the two feet ( Papal Rome) ... then Papal Rome sets up the ten nation Middle Eastern Union (ten toes) with the antichrist ruling from Jerusalem

 

Now in terms you probably wont agree with :

Rome.... then the two feet  (Turkish Rome).....then Turkey sets up the ten nation Middle Eastern Union (ten toes) with the antichrist ruling from Jerusalem

 

 

Now when you get two cities who control the political and religious environment of earth (Rome and Istanbul) and which set up an antichrist in a third city, this fulfils another prophecy. The wild beast with the two little horns  creates the beast with 42 months of authority in Revelation 13.

 

[Paradox]

It's very difficult to study these prophecies without going into all topics which are related to them, for instance we recognize that Revelation borrows illustrations and the language from many other Bible authors, 

I try and remind myself of the thread topic without too much success.

 

But I just wanted to say that Turkey was once the capitol of the Ottoman empire and today, possibly the capitol of Islam.

 

Although the Islamic mosque is built on what was once Turkish ground,

I don't think that the current Jerusalem is in question when Thessalonians talks about the AC sitting in the temple of God. Which is God's temple? Would it be a restoration of the one gone? 

No, because it only stood as a shadow until the real Lamb of God was slain, then its services were over, indicated by the tearing of the veil within. So it is no longer God's temple, neither could it be if it was rebuilt. Besides Jerusalem and Israel as a theocracy finished at the end of the 490 years of probation given to them.

 

The only temple of God is either the one in heaven where Christ is the priest, or the one on earth - our bodies.

The work of God in heaven corresponds to whatever is done on earth. So there is only one temple, which is literally in heaven and spiritually applied on earth through the Holy Spirit.

The church of Christ is named the temple of the Lord.

 

If the AC sits in the temple of God showing that he is God, that would correspond with all those who worship self as god, rather than Christ. This was the same sin which Lucifer committed in heaven, he thought himself as god.

 

This occurs when a person does not acknowledge the authority of God, by violating one or more of His commandments.

Because to disobey God is to make oneself higher than God.

Hence the text "they that keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus" is repeated over and over again in Revelation in direct contrast to the work of the AC and his mark of rebellion.

 

But what the AC does is call his work the work of Christ, and so the poisonous pill goes down. (A false Christ)

 

If this is the case, then the genuine work of Christ for the world in the heavenly temple is completely ignored.

And that's not Jerusalem by any means.

 

In regards to the plight of Islam, Daniel indicates that he will come to his end for the lack of support. Dan 11:45

 

From where I stand, cannot see Jerusalem or Turkey reviving for any reason, while the attack of the AC is directed at the mediation of Christ for sinners.

[ARGOSY]

It's very difficult to study these prophecies without going into all topics which are related to them, for instance we recognize that Revelation borrows illustrations and the language from many other Bible authors, 

I try and remind myself of the thread topic without too much success.

 

But I just wanted to say that Turkey was once the capitol of the Ottoman empire and today, possibly the capitol of Islam.

 

Although the Islamic mosque is built on what was once Turkish ground,

I don't think that the current Jerusalem is in question when Thessalonians talks about the AC sitting in the temple of God. Which is God's temple? Would it be a restoration of the one gone? 

No, because it only stood as a shadow until the real Lamb of God was slain, then its services were over, indicated by the tearing of the veil within. So it is no longer God's temple, neither could it be if it was rebuilt. Besides Jerusalem and Israel as a theocracy finished at the end of the 490 years of probation given to them.

 

The only temple of God is either the one in heaven where Christ is the priest, or the one on earth - our bodies.

The work of God in heaven corresponds to whatever is done on earth. So there is only one temple, which is literally in heaven and spiritually applied on earth through the Holy Spirit.

The church of Christ is named the temple of the Lord.

 

If the AC sits in the temple of God showing that he is God, that would correspond with all those who worship self as god, rather than Christ. This was the same sin which Lucifer committed in heaven, he thought himself as god.

 

This occurs when a person does not acknowledge the authority of God, by violating one or more of His commandments.

Because to disobey God is to make oneself higher than God.

Hence the text "they that keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus" is repeated over and over again in Revelation in direct contrast to the work of the AC and his mark of rebellion.

 

But what the AC does is call his work the work of Christ, and so the poisonous pill goes down. (A false Christ)

 

If this is the case, then the genuine work of Christ for the world in the heavenly temple is completely ignored.

And that's not Jerusalem by any means.

 

In regards to the plight of Islam, Daniel indicates that he will come to his end for the lack of support. Dan 11:45

 

From where I stand, cannot see Jerusalem or Turkey reviving for any reason, while the attack of the AC is directed at the mediation of Christ for sinners.

 

Thanks for this. I now understand the view that the the temple of 2 Thess 2 represents the church better than before.  I do however completely disagree with you. Daniel 7, Daniel 11 and 2 Thessalonians 2 and Revelation 13 all describe this man who will be boastful and/or declare himself God.  I understand this to be literal. aren't you a little concerned that you may be wrong on this and some people would then miss the warning about a literal man in the temple? 

 

You make a good point about the temple, but the Greek does not use the word temple. The Greek uses a word that was used for the temple but could also be used for any holy place or shrine, Godly or heathen.  The shrine of the Philistines. The shrine of the Babylonians etc etc. Where then is a real shrine of God on this planet? Its the temple mount, mount Zion/mount Moriah. A shrine is a place of remembrance, and mount Zion is a place of remembrance of the one true God. It is in God's own sacred shrine that the antichrist will come to power. So I do here you that a man-made temple cannot be called God's temple, but I believe that is misunderstanding the verse that is declaring that the "man of sin" will desecrate God's sacred place, Mount Zion.

[Paradox]

I don't know the answers to some of your Q's, and they are valid for sure. So in the back of my mind I remember what you have presented and see how it all pans out.

 

One thing is certain, we agree on what the teachings of the AC are.

 

Rollingthunder posted some texts in this regard in the thread on the AC, and I believe that if we find more about his manners and character then the scriptures should nail him. And from that we will be able to tell his movements in the world today.

 

What, where and how the AC comes to light, is where we have many different views, but by uniting our efforts on the basics of what he is on about, all his other plans should be transparent, as they were to the apostles.

[Salty]

It's very difficult to study these prophecies without going into all topics which are related to them, for instance we recognize that Revelation borrows illustrations and the language from many other Bible authors, 

I try and remind myself of the thread topic without too much success.

 

But I just wanted to say that Turkey was once the capitol of the Ottoman empire and today, possibly the capitol of Islam.

 

Although the Islamic mosque is built on what was once Turkish ground,

I don't think that the current Jerusalem is in question when Thessalonians talks about the AC sitting in the temple of God. Which is God's temple? Would it be a restoration of the one gone? 

No, because it only stood as a shadow until the real Lamb of God was slain, then its services were over, indicated by the tearing of the veil within. So it is no longer God's temple, neither could it be if it was rebuilt. Besides Jerusalem and Israel as a theocracy finished at the end of the 490 years of probation given to them.

 

The only temple of God is either the one in heaven where Christ is the priest, or the one on earth - our bodies.

The work of God in heaven corresponds to whatever is done on earth. So there is only one temple, which is literally in heaven and spiritually applied on earth through the Holy Spirit.

The church of Christ is named the temple of the Lord.

 

If the AC sits in the temple of God showing that he is God, that would correspond with all those who worship self as god, rather than Christ. This was the same sin which Lucifer committed in heaven, he thought himself as god.

 

This occurs when a person does not acknowledge the authority of God, by violating one or more of His commandments.

Because to disobey God is to make oneself higher than God.

Hence the text "they that keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus" is repeated over and over again in Revelation in direct contrast to the work of the AC and his mark of rebellion.

 

But what the AC does is call his work the work of Christ, and so the poisonous pill goes down. (A false Christ)

 

If this is the case, then the genuine work of Christ for the world in the heavenly temple is completely ignored.

And that's not Jerusalem by any means.

 

In regards to the plight of Islam, Daniel indicates that he will come to his end for the lack of support. Dan 11:45

 

From where I stand, cannot see Jerusalem or Turkey reviving for any reason, while the attack of the AC is directed at the mediation of Christ for sinners.

 

But the point you miss is that the orthodox unbelieving Jews do not regard the Christian temple of our bodies, nor Christ as the temple. They only regard a literal temple built in Jerusalem as God's temple, and that's the concept Apostle Paul was referring to in 2 Thess.2:4 with "the temple of God".

 

Per Ephesians we well know that Christ as The Cornerstone and the Apostles, prophets, and even us, as foundation stones, can NEVER be corrupted by any antichrist sitting in it, which is a physical event, not a spiritual occupying. The true Temple of Christ cannot be corrupted, period, for it is a Heavenly Temple not made with hands. If a believer falls away they cut themselves off from the True Temple. That's how we know the "temple of God" Paul was talking about being occupied by the coming Antichrist can ONLY... be about a literal physical temple built with hands. If you are listening to preachers today that tell you different, then know they have gone amuck into doctrines of men designed to deceive away from the coming Antichrist to sit in a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem.