By Omegaman 3.0
Things the Bible DOES NOT SAY about the End Times Notice, that this list, does not establish any end times theory, it tries to prove nothing. It does not even attack a theory, or attempt to refute one. What it does attempt to do, is to get people to ask themselves, why they believe certain things, that the Bible never says. So basically, in between the lines I am asking: If we believe certain things that are not stated in the scripture, and claim that we believe them because that is what scripture teaches, aren't we in principle adding to the words of scripture? Furthermore, if we teach these things as though they are true, does that make us false teachers? So, what things do I claim the Bible does not teach? Following is a short list: 1. It does not say there will be a Rapture of the Church, which occurs before the Great Tribulation. 2. It does not refer to a 7 year period as the Great Tribulation. 3. It does not say that the Holy Spirit is removed from the Earth at any time during the Great Tribulation. 4. It does not refer to the Great Tribulation, as the wrath of God. 5. It does not say that Jesus will return secretly or invisibly to take His Church. 6. It does not say that no man will ever know the time (the day or hour) of His coming.
7. It does not say that Jesus can return at any moment. 8. It does not say that Jesus will return like a thief in the night for His church. 9. It does not say that believers will not be in the great tribulation, or skip suffering and persecution, or even death. Now, am I wrong about anything on that list. If so, can you provide scripture citations that would make anything in the list a misstatement? Thanks for your help! P.S. Please try to stick to the actual topic, and provide us with the information which would show me to be in error, when I claim the bible does not express the ideas in the list. Also not, that in the thread that follows, other ideas that could be added to the list are these: 10. The Bible does not explicitly say the the Rapture is the Blessed Hope. 11. Jesus is not said to return as a thief in the night, in any context that necessitates a pre-tribulation return. 12. It is often said: The Rapture is Jesus coming for His church, the Second Coming is Jesus coming with His church. I think those definitions are workable, but the Bible does not say there is a multi-year interval between those events. 13. The Bible does not say, that there are 144,000 evangelists or witnesses, during the tribulation. Helpful link to common verses applied to this topic
By Omegaman 3.0
Hi all! I am beginning a project that I hope will help people study this topic, with greater ease. On thing that would be very helpful to me, is to know which translations we prefer to use in study. I will then work on this project, around some of the most favored versions. I probably will not be doing much with the more obscure versions, but for now, could you choose from among those listed? Thanks in advance for your help.
I know some of you will want to add comments. I am not promising that I will read them, if I read them, I may or may not respond to them.
I do suggest however, that you try to refrain from debating Bible versions, or expressing why you believe your favorite is better than the other person's favorite. There are already threads on that at Worthy. My purpose here, is only to discover which of the above, people who study eschatology prefer, so I may prioritize the versions I support in my upcoming project. Again, thanks for the help.
I went along and believed in the Pre-Trib rapture because I just went along with what the preachers said. I was guilty of not studying the Word and asking the Lord for His wisdom. Well, a few years ago, I heard someone on youtube talk about the post-trib rapture. So of course I had to do some investigating and the Scriptures that she gave were Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. I also asked the Holy Spirit, to show me truth.
One night I just could not sleep so I went into a room and opened the Scriptures. I was studying all night and the Lord showed me that we were going to be here. We needed to go through the tribulation and that it would purify His Church, the Bride of Christ.
I believe we will be here to the end. There are many verses that exhort , "He who endures to the end".
I believe a little differently than most Post-Tribbers. I believe that we will actually be here while the plagues and bowls of God's wrath are being poured out. But we will be supernaturally protected while the plagues and wrath are being poured out, we will be raptured, while the wicked are facing judgment. Everything, the rapture, the judgment of the wicked will be happening simultaneously….So bear with me, while I present my case.
Matthew 13:37-43 King James Version (KJV)
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of Man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the Kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of Man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of His Kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Matthew 24:31 King James Version (KJV)
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds(should say from the four corners of the earth…mandela effect), from one end of heaven to the other.
Revelation 14:15-20 King James Version (KJV)
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
1 Thessalonians 5:1-5 King James Version (KJV)
5 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
So we are told that we will the know the times and the seasons but not the day or the hour. We are told that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night BUT YE, BRETHREN, ARE NOT IN DARKNESS, THAT THAT DAY SHOULD OVERTAKE YOU AS A THIEF.
We who are awake and sober, will be ready.
Revelation 15 is about the Seven Plagues
Revelation 16 is the Vials of God's Wrath being poured out…..
Revelation 16:1-16 King James Version (KJV) Vials of God's Wrath being poured out…..
16 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Right in the middle of the vials of wrath being poured out of this chapter, Jesus comes like a thief!!!
But we will be supernaturally protected like the Israelites in Goshen during the plagues in Egypt. Or Like Noah and his family on the ark.
Revelation 6:6 King James Version (KJV)
6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
The Holy Spirit is the oil and the wine. We have the Holy Spirit as believers in Christ Jesus. The Holy Spirit was not taken out of the way by leaving, He merely stepped aside to let the ac come into power, to allow God's Will to be done. He is still present because God said do not hurt the oil and the wine, aka Holy Spirit. (I will provide that Matthew 25-The Parable of the 10 Virgins as a reference of the oil being the Holy Spirit)
Revelation 16:15 is a good indicator that Jesus is coming to get us at the very end. We will be caught up in the twinkling of the eye while judgment is being poured out on the wicked.
I have more…but this will have to do for now…. I welcome your thoughts! But I just have one thing more to say. I still love all my brothers and sisters in Christ who believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture. If Christ does come to get us before, then HALLELUJAH!!! PRAISE GOD!!! BUT IF NOT, WE SHOULD ALWAYS BE PREPARED FOR THE WORST. SO THAT WE WILL BE A TESTIMONY UNTO JESUS!
As a quick disclaimer: I have seen your replies and clearly some of you have a heart for God. Others, spend far too much time listening to the doctrines of demons. Know this, unless they block me I will not quit. I write for a world that is filled with people with a heart like mine; one that has learned to err on the side of mercy. Have a great day basking in the love of Jesus Christ our soon coming King.
Now, on with the post.
Having addressed who or what Gog could be in my previous post, we now look at the directive given to Ezekiel to prophecy against Gog (from a great distance, and through time,) about what God's plan is, for the last days.
Ezekiel 38:3 NASB and say, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I am against you, O Gog, prince of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal.
Eugene Peterson's “The Message” gives us this, “Be warned, Gog. I am against you.
Ezekiel 38:4 CJB I will turn you around, put hooks in your jaws and bring you out with all your army, horses and horsemen, all completely equipped, a great horde with breastplates and shields, all wielding swords.
Why would verse four be immensely significant in the Jewish mind?
If you think back to the story of Jonah you remember that Jonah was asked to prophesy against Nineveh and tell them their days were numbered. While that might seem appropriate, especially if you had an intense hatred for the Ninevehites and wanted them dead because they were sadistically cruel and bloody people.
But Jonah also knew something about God that most of us miss, and that was that God's nature was one of mercy. The other thing that Jonah understood was that the Ninevehites were a part of the Assyrian nation, just as Gog is, and they had the nasty habit of dragging their victims back to their lands by putting hooks in their mouths, among other places.
“I will turn you around.”
Another piece of insight for you. Having recently gone to the beach to be with family, I took an ice chest of cold drinks. I dragged that chest from the car, across the beach sand, and now, later in the day, I was dragging it back again. By the time I got to the stairs that lead up to the car, I was exhausted. I could feel the full weight of the ice chest as I went up the first step. Suddenly it got lighter. I actually thought I was going to turn around and see an angel. What I saw was the long-haired young man whom I had just passed carrying a skateboard. My wife, who was about 22 meters behind me, saw the skateboarder and internally had said, Lord, that would be great if that young man helped my husband. With that, the young man stopped, turned, and began to help me without saying a word. You see, God has ways of his will without a word being exchanged; and, the young man, he probably thought it was his great idea.
“and bring you out with all your army, horses and horsemen, all completely equipped, a great horde with breastplates and shields, all wielding swords.”
In one of my posts on Ezekiel 38, I went into great detail about the people of that region, the Scythians. One of their claims to fame is that they were skillful horsemen and deadly with weapons as they rode. Would Ezekiel have known that? It is highly possible as the line of descendants that produced these people existed long before Ezekiel did and he would have learned this through oral history.
At this point, I only wish to say, that someone attempted to challenge my previous assertions about Gog, saying, Gog was Satan. Based upon verse four alone is that probable?
Not likely seeing as 1Chronicles 5:4 shows us the lineage of a man named Gog, a descendant of Reuben – the disinherited son of Jacob, but then, Ezekiel's prophecy and the actual occurrence of these events spans well over two thousand years and no one lives that long. The only other thing that has credence is a demonic spirit/ fallen angel that carries that name.
In this battle coming against Israel, who are the players?
Ezekiel 38:5-6 NASB Persia, Ethiopia and Put with them, all of them with shield and helmet; 6) Gomer with all its troops; Beth-togarmah from the remote parts of the north with all its troops-many peoples with you.
Persia – Modern day Iran
Ethiopia – At one time Ethiopia was known as Cush.
Put - Put is the Libyans. While Qaddafi may have been a wild man, since his removal the nation has turned into a violent Muslim nation.
Gomer - Sits squarely in modern day Turkey.
Beth-togarmah - This was territory from which the Medes emanated. It is the region in which the Armenians resided. At one point in time, the Assyrian nations bordered Beth-togarmah, and it is the Caucasus region between the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea. While Russia has dominated these people at times they seem to be independent of Russia while maintaining civil war amongst themselves.
There is a strong clue embedded within the verse that says, “in the far reaches of the north, with all its troops-many peoples are with you." Again, this is the Scythian region and one of their claims to fame was Genghis Khan.
Ezekiel 38:7 CJB Prepare yourself, get ready, you and all your crowd gathered around you; and take charge of them.
Consider something here. Ezekiel is writing this while he is in Babylonian captivity; which for him, began around 570 B.C. Now, over 2570 years later, God is finally bringing this collection of assailants together for a horrendous battle. A battle, that for Israel, will look impossible.
Many will add another war in here, the Psalm 83 war. Some even insert it before the events that Ezekiel lays out before us.
Psalms 83:3-8 ISV They plot against your people and conspire against your cherished ones. 4) They say, "Let us go and erase them as a nation so the name of Israel will not be remembered anymore." 5) Indeed, they shrewdly planned together, forming an alliance against you— 6) the tents of Edom, the Ishmaelites, Moab, the Hagrites, 7) Gebal, Ammon, Amalek, Philistia, and the inhabitants of Tyre. 😎 Even Assyria joined them to strengthen the descendants of Lot. Interlude.
Psalm 83 has similarities to what we see in Ezekiel 38 and 39, but what I don't see is Cush, and Put – Egypt and Libya. I am not sure those nations can be excluded as the descendants traveled extensively.
Ezekiel 38:8 CJB After many days have passed, you will be mustered for service; in later years you will invade the land which has been brought back from the sword, gathered out of many peoples, the mountains of Isra'el. They had been lying in ruins for a long time, but now Isra'el has been extracted from the peoples and all of them are living there securely.
“After many days have passed,”
Far too many read this and think it merely means weeks later. This phrase, like “the prince that shall come,” that is defined for us in Daniel 9:26, has several encroachments into history. The problem is, these intrusions are spread across thousands of years.
Many is the Hebrew word rab meaning much, many, numerous, and abundance, among others.
Verse eight is clearly a description of Israel.
Ezekiel 38:9 CJB You will come up like a storm, you will be like a cloud covering the land—you and all your troops, and many other peoples with you.'
“You will come up like a storm,”
Sudden and overwhelming. Are all storms sudden? No, in many cases people will say, this is storm weather and it always starts like this. So, the implication is that we have a strong probability of knowing when this will come. Just today (6/29/2018), through the MEMRI website, I learned of a Middle Eastern newspaper that leans heavily toward Erdoğan, publishing an article calling for the Muslim of the world to gather in Jihad against Israel (this article was published in Dec of 2017 – not that long ago. An aspect of the article was a map which showed Israel surrounded on every side with army tanks. Surrounded on every side sounds very much like Ezekiel's words.
“you will be like a cloud covering the land.” - Clouds are formed by thousands of drops of water. We are told that the number seems innumerable.
“you and all your troops, and many other peoples with you.” - These are people of a like mind – Muslims may not be unified in “religion” but they all seem to understand the idea of Jihad.
Ezekiel 38:10-12 CJB "Adonai Elohim says: 'When that day comes, thoughts will well up in your mind, and you will devise a sinister scheme. 11) You will say, "I am going to invade this land of unwalled villages; I will take by surprise these people who are at peace, living securely, all in places without walls, bars or gates. 12) I will seize the spoil and take the plunder." You will attack the former ruins that are now inhabited and come against the people gathered from the nations, who have acquired livestock and other wealth and are living in the central parts of the land.
“ When that day comes,” - Question, does God do anything at random? The answer is NO, as everything is part of a precise and well thought out plan; a plan which includes giving man a free will and the opportunity to choose life or death.
Regardless of the optional qualities, the plan is still in place and intact. So, is it possible that God would leave the option for Gog to design and plan out “his” own destiny? Not a chance and verse ten is no different, as “that day” is entirely in God's hands, and, a part of God's plan.
Another consideration is the terminology “that day.” The phrase is attributed to several events; one of which is the return of Jesus as the warring and conquering Messiah, who also fights a bloody battle in the Jezreel Valley; there is the great white throne judgment and the entirety of the seven-years of God's wrath upon the earth.
Are any of those events what we are looking at here? I do not believe so as there are always other events associated, which we do not see here.
“thoughts will come into your mind and you will devise an evil plan,” -
The Hebrew word for thoughts is dāḇār and literally means words. I could read this when that day comes, words will pop into your head, you are going to think this is your sinister scheme, but in reality, you will be doing what I have planned all along.
Mind is the Hebrew word lēḇāḇ and also means heart. In God's understanding, the heart and the mind are one in the same.
Devise is from the Hebrew word châshab and means to weave, fabricate, or plot.
“You will say, "I am going to invade this land of unwalled villages; I will take by surprise these people who are at peace, living securely, all in places without walls, bars or gates. 12) I will seize the spoil and take the plunder.”
The context of Deuteronomy 3:5 is applied to Israel's conquer of Og, the King of Bashan. Having destroyed Og's fortified cities they were never rebuilt by Israel. It also demonstrates that cities were typically fortresses; this is not what you see in Israel today.
Deuteronomy 3:3-6 NASB "All these were cities fortified with high walls, gates, and bars, besides a great many unwalled towns.
Zechariah 2:4 NASB and said to him, "Run, speak to that young man, saying, 'Jerusalem will be inhabited without walls because of the multitude of men and cattle within it.
I like the way the ISV version translates Ezekiel 38:12, “the people … who live at the center of the world's attention.” Currently, all the world seems to be looking at Israel, once again. Whether Israel is at the center of the world or not is debatable, but God is making that nation the center of attention.
And, although we have not covered the verse yet, it sums up the reason behind all this tumult.
Ezekiel 38:16 ERV...I will bring you to fight against my land. Then, Gog, the nations will learn how powerful I am! They will learn to respect me and know that I am holy.
This short article from the website 'Rapture Ready' outlines just how close our redemption is, if you're a pre-tribulation believer. It nicely dovetails my own view and opinion of the 'season' of the catching up of believers. Rather than copy and paste, the link is below for those interested.