Scripture threatens loss of salvation

[OneLight]

A clarification for those of you who have not read/understood what I have written:

1) -- the antichrist causes the tribulation

2) -- many pre-tribbers are totally unprepared and shocked at what they are going through

3) -- so, many of these fall away from the faith

4) -- Rev 21:8 speaks of "the cowardly" being thrown into the lake of fire ... which agrees with several other passages that say one must endure in his faith until the end of life to receive eternal life.

5)  -- I am asking: could this "cowardly" refer to people who fall away from the faith during the great tribulation?

I have placed number next to your statements to refer to them easily.

 

1. Please provide scripture that points to the anti-christ causing the tribulation.  I would argue that man causes the tribulation, which sets up an opportunity for Satan to try and take control.
2. I really don't think they will be shocked, perhaps disappointed.  AS for not being prepared, that is a possibility.
3. Scripture tells us that there will be a great falling away, but it does not speak of the "who" involved.  I venture to believe that those who fall away have not committed their lives to Christ, but are fence sitters.  There will be those who fall away from every standpoint of the rapture belief.
4. True.
5. Sure it will refer to them, and all others who are cowardly since the beginning of mankind.

 

 

[Qnts2]

Just a warning. If a person believes that making it thru the great tribulation as a Christian, requires belief in a late rapture or no rapture, as then the expectation will be they will go thru the tribulation and they are mentally prepared, I fear those people might be in danger. When great persecution arrives, with the tribulation or otherwise, the way to survive is by faith and trust in God. Not some belief which gives a personal strength, or exercise which give an individual fortitude. Any time of persecution or tribulation, is a time of learning to place faith in God and rely on God. Not in our own belief or strength.  

 

So, if a person believes those who believe in an early rapture, before the great tribulation, might fall away, because they were not prepared and didn't expect a hard time, places too much emphasis in peoples abilities and not enough faith in God. That is a dangerous place to be. God is faithful.  

[Guest]

Those who think that the Church and Christ followers need to be cleansed by the Trib have a bigger problem than believing or not believing in a Pre-trib rapture. 

Have you ever met someone who believed that? I don't think I ever have. If such people exist, I certainly agree with your statement.

 

However, I do think that the case can be made, that persecution can have the effect of purification of individuals (it can make them stronger) and it can help weed out the church - many tares will just abandon the faith (se also the parable of the sower).

 

However, in the larger sense of being cleansed, believers are washed by the blood of Jesus, and we do not need to turn the tribulation into a protestant version of Purgatory.

 

Not addressing any particular point here, but of interest:

 

 12Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal among you, which comes upon you for your testing, as though some strange thing were happening to you; 13but to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing, so that also at the revelation of His glory you may rejoice with exultation. 14If you are reviled for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. 15Make sure that none of you suffers as a murderer, or thief, or evildoer, or a troublesome meddler; 16but if anyone suffers as a Christian, he is not to be ashamed, but is to glorify God in this name. 17For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18AND IF IT IS WITH DIFFICULTY THAT THE RIGHTEOUS IS SAVED, WHAT WILL BECOME OF THE GODLESS MAN AND THE SINNER? 19Therefore, those also who suffer according to the will of God shall entrust their souls to a faithful Creator in doing what is right.

[Osterloh]

One light ...

just because they are pre-trib believers, that does not equate to them being a coward.  

I believe there will be many who turn from the truth and not because of their stance in the rapture,

but because their lack of true faith.

 

Again, I never meant to say what you are interpreting.

IMO, some of every imaginable persuasion will be cowards,

and run from the persecution and run towards taking the mark.

Please note that the word "every" must include pre-tribbers.

Edited July 7, 2014 by Osterloh

[Osterloh]

Please provide scripture that points to the anti-christ causing the tribulation. 

I would argue that man causes the tribulation, which sets up an opportunity for Satan to try and take control.

 

Causes or does, you choose! ... For me, it's both.

 

Matthew 24 (NKJV)

The Great Tribulation

15   “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation’, spoken of by Daniel the prophet,

standing in the holy place (whoever reads, let him understand), 

16   then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 

17   Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house.

18   And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 

19   But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 

20   And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 

21   For then there will be great tribulation,

such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22   And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved;

but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

23   Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 

24   For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders

to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

Edited July 7, 2014 by Osterloh

[OneLight]

Please provide scripture that points to the anti-christ causing the tribulation. 

I would argue that man causes the tribulation, which sets up an opportunity for Satan to try and take control.

 

Causes or does, you choose! ... For me, it's both.

 

Matthew 24 (NKJV)

The Great Tribulation

15   “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation’, spoken of by Daniel the prophet,

standing in the holy place (whoever reads, let him understand), 

16   then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 

17   Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house.

18   And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 

19   But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 

20   And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 

21   For then there will be great tribulation,

such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22   And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved;

but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

23   Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 

24   For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders

to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

 

Sounds more like what he does points to a time in prophecy, not that he causes it.  Reviewing all the catastrophes in scripture, it is man who brought them upon themselves by being disobedient.  Satan is just going to cash in on what is in the future, doing as much harm as he can.

[Osterloh]

I'm sure you've heard ...

Man is intelligent enough to rationalize all kinds of stuff,

and to come up with all kinds of doctrines from Scripture.

 

So, Praise God for man's intelligence (compared to that of the animals).

 

Don't know if I can say the same about man's free will ... because with that ...

Man can choose to habitually sin and receive eternal death (separation from God).

BACs included (ref: Romans 6, my favorite "hidden proof" passage).

Edited July 7, 2014 by Osterloh

[OneLight]

I don't trust in mans inelegance at all.  Have you not read ...

 

Proverbs 3:5-6

Trust in the LORD with all your heart,

And lean not on your own understanding;

In all your ways acknowledge Him,

And He shall direct your paths.

[Wildstar]

 

A clarification for those of you who have not read/understood what I have written:

1) -- the antichrist causes the tribulation

2) -- many pre-tribbers are totally unprepared and shocked at what they are going through

3) -- so, many of these fall away from the faith

4) -- Rev 21:8 speaks of "the cowardly" being thrown into the lake of fire ... which agrees with several other passages that say one must endure in his faith until the end of life to receive eternal life.

5)  -- I am asking: could this "cowardly" refer to people who fall away from the faith during the great tribulation?

I have placed number next to your statements to refer to them easily.

 

1. Please provide scripture that points to the anti-christ causing the tribulation.  I would argue that man causes the tribulation, which sets up an opportunity for Satan to try and take control.
2. I really don't think they will be shocked, perhaps disappointed.  AS for not being prepared, that is a possibility.
3. Scripture tells us that there will be a great falling away, but it does not speak of the "who" involved.  I venture to believe that those who fall away have not committed their lives to Christ, but are fence sitters.  There will be those who fall away from every standpoint of the rapture belief.
4. True.
5. Sure it will refer to them, and all others who are cowardly since the beginning of mankind.

 

Referring to point 3, how can you fall away from something if you arent a part of it in the first place?  They aren't fence sitters.  They are already of the redeemed and choose another way.

 

When I read Galatians 3 for example he tells those saints who are of Christ they will fall away from God if they don't repent.  They still believed in God and still loved Him very much.  Just their views were skewed making their faiths invalid in Gods eyes.  I will post the Galatians 3 passage I have in mind...  it shows they definently had the holy Spirit, thus saved.  Having 'started' in the Spirit they are trying another way for salvation (bad doctrines entered their hearts) and I believe he ends with Have you suffered it all in vain?  Meaning he was warning them about falling away.

 

Point 1, I do remember seeing that the antichrist has to stop the sacrifices and that triggers the great tribulations by God.  It's in Daniel 12:11-12 which is here "From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days."  It also shows mid tribulation rapture.  The great tribulation is 7 years in length.  1335 days is just a little bit past the middle of the great tribulation where the seventh trumpet is sounded (Paul notes that the last trumpet is the rewarding of the saints) and the last trumpet does speak of the rewarding of the saints but is also the third woe for earths inhabitants.

 

 

Galatians 3:2-4

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

Edited July 8, 2014 by Wildstar

[OneLight]

I have placed number next to your statements to refer to them easily.

• Please provide scripture that points to the anti-christ causing the tribulation.  I would argue that man causes the tribulation, which sets up an opportunity for Satan to try and take control.
• I really don't think they will be shocked, perhaps disappointed.  AS for not being prepared, that is a possibility.
• Scripture tells us that there will be a great falling away, but it does not speak of the "who" involved.  I venture to believe that those who fall away have not committed their lives to Christ, but are fence sitters.  There will be those who fall away from every standpoint of the rapture belief.
• True.
• Sure it will refer to them, and all others who are cowardly since the beginning of mankind.

Referring to point 3, how can you fall away from something if you arent a part of it in the first place?  They aren't fence sitters.  They are already of the redeemed and choose another way.

 

When I read Galatians 3 for example he tells those saints who are of Christ they will fall away from God if they don't repent.  They still believed in God and still loved Him very much.  Just their views were skewed making their faiths invalid in Gods eyes.  I will post the Galatians 3 passage I have in mind...  it shows they definently had the holy Spirit, thus saved.  Having 'started' in the Spirit they are trying another way for salvation (bad doctrines entered their hearts) and I believe he ends with Have you suffered it all in vain?  Meaning he was warning them about falling away.

 

Point 1, I do remember seeing that the antichrist has to stop the sacrifices and that triggers the great tribulations by God.  It's in Daniel 12:11-12 which is here "From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days."  It also shows mid tribulation rapture.  The great tribulation is 7 years in length.  1335 days is just a little bit past the middle of the great tribulation where the seventh trumpet is sounded (Paul notes that the last trumpet is the rewarding of the saints) and the last trumpet does speak of the rewarding of the saints but is also the third woe for earths inhabitants.

 

 

Galatians 3:2-4

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

It is possible to believe in Christ and accept His salvation without committing their lives to Him. Every new Christian has to learn how to let go of their life so He can live in and through them. Dedication is not automatic and is a constant learning curve.

I see the "abomination that causes desolation" as a sign of a certain time, not the cause of the tribulation. The cause is sin, man being separated from God. If man was in union with God, there would be no tribulation. The tribulation is God warning man to repent and come back to Him. It is not about Satan, though he plays a major role.