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tigger two


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I'm having difficulties adjusting here.  Sorry about that. 


I have attempted to respond to coheir's list posted for me on "Let's Post!" starting with John 8:58/Ex. 3:14.  After a number of deleted posts there I am now trying to answer coheir here.


First, ego eimi in John 8:58 is most often rendered as "I am."  And it has been used, in recent years at least, as part of a 'Jesus is equally God' proof.


But (1) NT grammar also allows for past tense and perfect tense renderings for ego eimi.  And (2) context makes it more likely that Jesus is saying he existed even before Abraham was born, not "before Abraham, I'm God" nor "before Abraham, YHWH."


Evidence for this can be found in the translations (many of them trinitarian) which disregard the trinitarian-favored "I Am" rendering.  Here are some of them:


These translations (most by trinitarians) render ego eimi at John 8:58 as:

(1) “I HAVE BEEN” - alternate reading in 1960 thru 1973 reference editions of NASB
(2) “I HAVE BEEN” - The New Testament, G. R. Noyes
(3) “I HAVE BEEN” - “The Four Gospels” According to the Sinaitic Palimpsest, A. S. Lewis
(4) “I HAVE ALREADY BEEN” - The Unvarnished New Testament
(5) “I HAVE EXISTED” - The Bible, A New Translation, Dr. James Moffatt
(6) “I EXISTED” - The New Testament in the Language of Today, 1964 ed., Beck
(7) “I EXISTED” - An American Translation, Goodspeed
(8) “I EXISTED” - The New Testament in the Language of the People, Williams
(9) “I EXISTED” - New Simplified Bible
(10) “I WAS IN EXISTENCE” - Living Bible
(11) “I WAS ALIVE” - The Simple English Bible
(12)“I WAS” - Holy Bible - From the Ancient Eastern Text, Lamsa
(13)“I WAS” - Young’s Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1st ed. (Also see Young’s Concise Critical Commentary, p. 61 of “The New Covenant.”).
(14) “I WAS” - The Syriac New Testament, Jas. Murdock
(15) “I WAS” - H. T. Anderson
(16) “I WAS” - Twentieth Century New Testament


Additional (found in an on-line post):


The 20th Century New Testament:
"before Abraham existed I was."


Parker, P.G. Clarified N.T.:
Jesus answered, before Abraham existed, I existed.


Cotton Patch Version (1970):
To this Jesus replied, I existed before Abraham was born.


Good News for the World (1969)
Jesus answer, I tell you the truth. I already was before Abraham was born.


New Believers Bible, New Living Translation:
"I existed before Abraham was even born."


The New Testament, Kleist & Lilly:
"I am here-and I was before Abraham."


The New Testament Or Rather the New Covenant, Sharpe:
"I was before Abraham was born."


The New Testament, Stage:
"Before Abraham came to be, I was."


The Documents of the New Testament, Wade:
"Before Abraham came into being, I have existed."


Noli, M.F.S. N.T. (1961)
Jesus answered them: Well, well, I tell you, I existed before Abraham was born.


The Concise Gospel and The Acts, Christianson:
"I existed even before Abraham was born."


The Original New Testament, Schonfield: "I tell you for a positive fact, I existed before Abraham was born."


The Complete Gospels Annotated Scholars Version,
Miller: "I existed before there was an Abraham."


Swann, G. N.T. (1947)
Jesus said to them, verily, verily I say unto you, I existed before Abraham was born


International English Version (2001)
"I was alive before Abraham was born"


The point is that numerous trinitarian scholars would not ignore a popular 'Jesus is God' proof if it were not in doubt.


Even the oldest English translations do not render this as "I am":


Joh 8:58 Se hælend cwæð to him. ic was [was] ærþam þe abraham was [was] - Anglo-Saxon Gospels, Manuscript 140, Corpus Christi College circa 1000 by Aelfric.


Joh 8:58 Se hælend cwæð; to heom. Ic wæs ær þonne þe abraham wære. - Anglo-Saxon Gospels, Hatton Manuscript 38, Bodleian Library circa 1200 by unknown author.


Old English for “I am” - “Ic (or ‘Ich’) eom.” See John 8:18, 28 for example.


If this post is not deleted, I will post more on John 8:58 or on Ex. 3:14.

Edited by tigger two

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So, you don't believe Jesus was God while on earth?

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The thread had been closed before and is closed again. Please refer to the PM about this and do not start another thread that is a duplicate of the other.

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