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ARGOSY

3 STAGES OF ROME

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I believe Daniel 2 refers to 3 stages of Rome:

1) Iron

2) Two feet of Iron and clay

3) Ten toes of iron and clay

 

Interpreted as :

1)Roman empire

 

2) The Roman empire split into two religious empires :

Papal Europe in the West

Turkey in the East (Byzantium/Ottoman Empires.)

 

3) Papal Europe will encourage Turkey to expand its control over ten countries in the Middle East. This new Turkish Union will be Israel friendly and will bring peace to Islam and to bring peace to East/West relations.

 

I believe this scenario explains the Rome/Islam debate about whether the final power will be based in Europe or from the Islamic Middle East. I believe it will be from the Islamic Middle East. The split Roman Empire (Turkey and Europe) co-operate to set up the new ten nation Turkish Union.  Any obvious biblical flaws in this scenario?

 

 

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Argosy,

I'm glad to see you have been reading my thoughts on the Rev 13 thread and the Middle East War thread. We are finally practically of one mind on this one.

Out of all the theories you have postulated, this may be your finest hour. I like this a lot. It makes a lot of sense. Of course, it could be wrong too, but I especially like how you did not go out of your way to call this a sixth and seventh kingdom like some do (apparently to avoid admitting this is somewhat of a revival of the old Roman Empire).

One concern- this new ten nation alliance will not incorporate any of the psalm 83 countries I hope because they won't be around at that time. Do you have any possible list of countries you are looking at?

I was looking at the Mediterranean Union earlier but never went further. I like this union of Europe plus Islam.

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Argosy,

I'm glad to see you have been reading my thoughts on the Rev 13 thread and the Middle East War thread. We are finally practically of one mind on this one.

Out of all the theories you have postulated, this may be your finest hour. I like this a lot. It makes a lot of sense. Of course, it could be wrong too, but I especially like how you did not go out of your way to call this a sixth and seventh kingdom like some do (apparently to avoid admitting this is somewhat of a revival of the old Roman Empire).

One concern- this new ten nation alliance will not incorporate any of the psalm 83 countries I hope because they won't be around at that time. Do you have any possible list of countries you are looking at?

I was looking at the Mediterranean Union earlier but never went further. I like this union of Europe plus Islam.

 

Thanks Spock. This was merely another way of expressing what I have believed for years. (some aspects maybe months.)

 

Yes I do have a list of countries, based on one simple sentence in Revelation 13. The beast will resemble the leopard. The leopard was Daniel's third kingdom, and under Alexander the Great the kingdom roughly encompassed the following modern countries:

Egypt, Syria, Greece, Turkey, Israel, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Libya.

 

I believe most likely Israel, Iraq and Syria will become one (3 horns fall before the little horn - Daniel 7). This is why they are not included in the Gog war, because all three of these countries become the throne of the "little horn". The whole world (Gog and its allies) attacks this new Israeli superstate at Armageddon. Two evil armies face-off.  Israel only starts winning after they repent, before that they are losing the final war.

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The dream, and its interpretation:
 
[Dan 2:31 NKJV] "You, O king, were watching; and behold, a great image! This great image, whose splendor [was] excellent, stood before you; and its form [was] awesome.
[Dan 2:32 NKJV] "This image's head [was] of fine gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze,
[Dan 2:33 NKJV] "its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay.
[Dan 2:34 NKJV] "You watched while a stone was cut out without hands, which struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces.
[Dan 2:35 NKJV] "Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed together, and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; the wind carried them away so that no trace of them was found. And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.
[Dan 2:36 NKJV] "This [is] the dream. Now we will tell the interpretation of it before the king.
[Dan 2:37 NKJV] "You, O king, [are] a king of kings. For the God of heaven has given you a kingdom, power, strength, and glory;
[Dan 2:38 NKJV] "and wherever the children of men dwell, or the beasts of the field and the birds of the heaven, He has given [them] into your hand, and has made you ruler over them all--you [are] this head of gold.
[Dan 2:39 NKJV] "But after you shall arise another kingdom inferior to yours; then another, a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth.
[Dan 2:40 NKJV] "And the fourth kingdom shall be as strong as iron, inasmuch as iron breaks in pieces and shatters everything; and like iron that crushes, [that kingdom] will break in pieces and crush all the others.
[Dan 2:41 NKJV] "Whereas you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter's clay and partly of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; yet the strength of the iron shall be in it, just as you saw the iron mixed with ceramic clay.
[Dan 2:42 NKJV] "And [as] the toes of the feet [were] partly of iron and partly of clay, [so] the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly fragile.
[Dan 2:43 NKJV] "As you saw iron mixed with ceramic clay, they will mingle with the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, just as iron does not mix with clay.
[Dan 2:44 NKJV] "And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.
[Dan 2:45 NKJV] "Inasmuch as you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold--the great God has made known to the king what will come to pass after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation is sure."
 
First things to note are that this was Neb's dream, and it portrays events from his perspective, where earthly rulership is a glorious thing. This is in contrast to Daniel's dream in Dan 7, where the same four kingdoms are portrayed from God's perspective as ravenous beasts.
 
Historically, from Neb's point of view, he was the head of gold in that his rule was absolute. (Dan 2:37)
The next kingdom, the Medes and Persians, was less absolute: "the law of the medes and persians cannot be broken", meaning the king was subject to the law. (Dan 6:8)
And so on with the greeks.
These three kingdoms (empires) shared the idea of preserving the culture and learning of those they conquered, often adding local deities to their own culture. Rome is seen in contrast, utterly destroying its enemies and enforcing its culture wherever it ruled. This is the iron aspect.
 
Clay is idiomatic of people in scripture, whether by Jesus' "I am the potter you are the clay", or Gen 2 when Adam was formed of the dust, or as interpreted for us here in Dan 2:43 where clay is "the seed of men", and other passages throughout scripture- it's not a controversial idiom and is widely understood.

 

Whereas the beast dreams of Dan 7 portray the transitional states of the empires, I don't think we see that in the Dan 2 dream except where it explicitly says so from 2:41 onward:

-we don't see one side growing stronger/one side diminishing aspect of the mede-to-persian shift in dominance as depicted by the bear "lifting up on one side".

-we don't see greece split into four with the death of Alex the Great, as with the leopard's four heads.

 

Looking at 2:41-

[Dan 2:41 NKJV] "Whereas you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter's clay and partly of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; yet the strength of the iron shall be in it, just as you saw the iron mixed with ceramic clay.

"The kingdom shall be divided", means it's the same overall kingdom (empire), and it isn't conquered but instead splits. This is the story of the Roman empire, which was never conquered but split into eastern and western parts, but retained an identity or connection to its former self. As it mixed with clay, it became even less absolute, and its power was dispersed through many people. The eastern and western parts further split and divided, and today practically all the nations of europe and the middle east are descendants of Rome.

 

The idiom of the iron legs transitioning to iron/clay feet and toes is one of power diminishing and dispersing over time.

 

"And in the days of these kings", in the days when Rome has been dispersed, divided, and diluted among the people. I happen to think that there will be a ten-nation confederation arising from the remnants of the roman empire, but that is an inference drawn when comparing the implied ten toes with the ten horns of Dan 7, etc. Beyond that, I think it's somewhat conjectural to try to identify the ten nations- the fact that the list changes every few years lends credence to the idea that this is the wrong tree to be barking up. I put this one in the "we'll know it when we see it" category.

 

So there's no "fifth empire", and reading the papacy into these dreams doesn't fit. The papacy may play a part, but that's not inherent or required by these dreams. The ten nations/rulers will band together before one of them becomes ascendant, so it doesn't make sense to look for the one, before the ten are formed.

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EXCELLENT analysis Persuaded. Clap clap. And you said it so eloquently while keeping it simple.

You lived up to your name on this one.

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Hi Argosy,

 

I read your interpretation of God`s Great Image. Now what scriptures (other than more symbols) do you have to back up this theory? Looking forward to reading them as it seems everyone thinks this is right. For such a popular view it must have undeniable scriptures that say Rome is the Final Ruler of today. It must be so obvious but I seem to be missing it.

 

 

Now I have just read your thoughts on this matter over in the `5th beast,` #57 so I do not need for you to write those. I would like though for scriptures to show God`s interpretation of His word, His symbols.

 

 

To me it is the right way to accurately handle God`s word by putting all the scriptures pertaining to the topic together to see what God says & not for us to just have our opinions of it. I have asked different ones concerning this topic but as yet I have not received any scriptures saying it is Rome (not just using symbols).

 

 

I hope you can bring forth some relevant scriptures. Thank you.

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I believe Daniel 2 refers to 3 stages of Rome:

1) Iron

2) Two feet of Iron and clay

3) Ten toes of iron and clay

 

Interpreted as :

1)Roman empire

 

2) The Roman empire split into two religious empires :

Papal Europe in the West

Turkey in the East (Byzantium/Ottoman Empires.)

 

3) Papal Europe will encourage Turkey to expand its control over ten countries in the Middle East. This new Turkish Union will be Israel friendly and will bring peace to Islam and to bring peace to East/West relations.

 

I believe this scenario explains the Rome/Islam debate about whether the final power will be based in Europe or from the Islamic Middle East. I believe it will be from the Islamic Middle East. The split Roman Empire (Turkey and Europe) co-operate to set up the new ten nation Turkish Union.  Any obvious biblical flaws in this scenario?

 

Hi Argosy

 

Yes I do believe there is something we should consider here.

The statue is quite simple.

The legs of iron symbolise the Roman Empire, yes, but there came a time when the Roman empire was no longer ruling.  This would be where the feet would start.  A new empire, mixed with a bit of iron in it still.  This would be the British empire, it's roots are from the Roman.

The British empire is still ruling today behind the scenes.   The ten kings come out of this empire., the British Empire.  The feet and toes have the "strength of iron".  Just as Rome was powerful in it's day, this kingdom will be just as strong, even stronger, but will break in pieces at the coming.  I believe the 10 toes (10 kings) as mentioned in rev, are coming from Europe (North of Israel) and not from the middle east, but the great war coming will be there in the Middle East and scripture tells us everything leading up to it will finally take place in Israel.

 

Thank you

God bless

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Hi Argosy,

 

I read your interpretation of God`s Great Image. Now what scriptures (other than more symbols) do you have to back up this theory? Looking forward to reading them as it seems everyone thinks this is right. For such a popular view it must have undeniable scriptures that say Rome is the Final Ruler of today. It must be so obvious but I seem to be missing it.

 

 

Now I have just read your thoughts on this matter over in the `5th beast,` #57 so I do not need for you to write those. I would like though for scriptures to show God`s interpretation of His word, His symbols.

 

 

To me it is the right way to accurately handle God`s word by putting all the scriptures pertaining to the topic together to see what God says & not for us to just have our opinions of it. I have asked different ones concerning this topic but as yet I have not received any scriptures saying it is Rome (not just using symbols).

 

 

I hope you can bring forth some relevant scriptures. Thank you.

Thanks for your approach, yes of course a view must be backed by scripture. Unfortunately symbolism is always open to interpretation, so what may seem obvious to me may not seem obvious to you. You have read my post 57 of the 5th Beast thread which is where I show my thinking regarding Rome. I believe this is all I need, its all pretty obvious to me. Alternative views in my own eyes would seem like a "make-it-fit" approach.  In addition I regard Daniel 7 as matching the four kingdoms of Daniel 2, except Daniel 7 does not focus on the spit part of the fourth beast, jumping straight into the ten toes (ten horns) stage. A horn is always a division of a kingdom, and in this way the little horn is a continuation of Rome. Thus we have two matching prophecies, each with differing emphasis.  

 

I believe the whore city of Rev 17/18 is also most obviously Rome. In this case it represent specifically the Papal Europe portion of Rome, and not the Turkish portion. Rev 17 is showing the interrelationship of Papal Europe with the Turkish Union.  Debates rage on about which city is being referred to , but the emphasis on the color of the robes pointing to the Vatican/Ancient Rome and the description in 17:18 I believe swings the debate more obviously in favor of Papal Europe. 

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Hi Arogosy,

 

I will certainly point out any specific verse I would like you to look at. But I don`t seem to see any scriptures apart from man`s interpretation of God`s symbols.

Can you show me where are those scriptures, (not symbols)?

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Yes I do believe there is something we should consider here.

The statue is quite simple.

The legs of iron symbolise the Roman Empire, yes, but there came a time when the Roman empire was no longer ruling.  This would be where the feet would start.  A new empire, mixed with a bit of iron in it still.  This would be the British empire, it's roots are from the Roman.

The British empire is still ruling today behind the scenes.   The ten kings come out of this empire., the British Empire.  The feet and toes have the "strength of iron".  Just as Rome was powerful in it's day, this kingdom will be just as strong, even stronger, but will break in pieces at the coming.  I believe the 10 toes (10 kings) as mentioned in rev, are coming from Europe (North of Israel) and not from the middle east, but the great war coming will be there in the Middle East and scripture tells us everything leading up to it will finally take place in Israel.

 

 

Please refer to my post 57 of the 5th beast thread where I spell out my logic regarding the split empire of Rome. There are two feet, and this empire is then described as a divided empire.  And so I prefer the Europe/Turkey view because the empire was immediately successive to the Roman Empire, retained the same two capital cities, and was a divided empire. Additionally clay is a symbol of true religion and brittle clay therefore a symbol of false religion, and I see an emphasis on false religion ruling the split empire.  Thus on 4 grounds I prefer the Europe/Turkey view to your British Empire view, unless you can show my I should prefer your British Empire view.

 

Thanks... looking forward to your response.

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