Jump to content
IGNORED

3 STAGES OF ROME


ARGOSY

Recommended Posts


  • Group:  Diamond Member
  • Followers:  2
  • Topic Count:  10
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  1,695
  • Content Per Day:  0.45
  • Reputation:   583
  • Days Won:  2
  • Joined:  01/03/2014
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  04/11/1968

Hi Arogosy,

 

I will certainly point out any specific verse I would like you to look at. But I don`t seem to see any scriptures apart from man`s interpretation of God`s symbols.

Can you show me where are those scriptures, (not symbols)?

 

The statue is obviously a timeline of empires. It speaks to me of an unbroken timeline of consecutive empires. I need no scriptures for this, the whole of Daniel 2 would give that impression to most readers looking for the obvious (do you agree?)

 

The two feet are specifically described as a divided empire. Thus we picture a Babylonian statue, legs together , feet apart. 

After you shall arise another kingdom inferior to you, and yet a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth. 40 And there shall be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron, because iron breaks to pieces and shatters all things; and like iron which crushes, it shall break and crush all these. 41 And as you saw the feet and toes partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom; but some of the firmness of iron shall be in it, just as you saw iron mixed with the miry clay.

 

We know elsewhere in the bible that we are supposed to be clay moulded into pots for good use. This means clay is a symbol of flexibility to the truth (true religion). Brittle clay represent false religion.

 

So already we know from scripture to look for a consecutive empire of Rome, which still has Rome in it (iron) and is a divided kingdom, divided into two divisions (two feet), and now has false religion in its leadership (clay as part of the kingdom). 

 

Nothing is conclusive, but if you are open to whats obvious you would see some truths in what I say, from the scriptures. Unless you have something more obvious for me.

 

History shows that this is exactly what happened to the two capital cities of the Roman Empire, they split into two religious empires.

 

I don't see how any part of this interpretation is "man's interpretation". I got the consecutive empires thing from Daniel 2, (after this shall arise another kingdom)  I got the divided empires thing from Daniel 2:41, I got the continuation of iron (Rome) in the two feet from the statue, its not my own idea. Moldable Clay is a known symbol for flexibility for God's purposes. (clay pots for good use).  History shows that after Babylon came Persia , Greece and Rome.

 

All pretty obvious?

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Diamond Member
  • Followers:  2
  • Topic Count:  10
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  1,695
  • Content Per Day:  0.45
  • Reputation:   583
  • Days Won:  2
  • Joined:  01/03/2014
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  04/11/1968

 

My alternative 4 Kingdoms view are as follows

1. Babylon

2. Media

3. Persia

4. Islam

 

Note:Media and Persia are two separate kingdoms but allied powers, It is Daniel who states that Darius the Mede succeeded Belshazzar, and who elsewhere speaks of "Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldaeans." In other words Darius was made King over the realm of Babylon.

 

Thanks for the contribution.  Sure you can see many things into a symbolic metallic statue. But the most obvious is staring in our face.

After you shall arise another kingdom inferior to you, and yet a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth. 40 And there shall be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron, because iron breaks to pieces and shatters all things; and like iron which crushes, it shall break and crush all these. 41 And as you saw the feet and toes partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom

 

The most obvious is that these are four consecutive kingdoms starting with Babylon. This is what the text is saying. history is clear on those four kingdoms, each conquering the previous, and each having a new geographical base. So I don't see the need to change the four kingdoms.  The fourth is supposed to then divide, because the text says its a divided kingdom (two feet).  Rome did so. And if we see Rome extended into Papal Europe as one of the two feet, Rome and Papal Europe through colonialism did crush and divide the whole earth, including Iran, Iraq, and Greece.

 

But when I see the other foot of the divided kingdom as representing Turkey and Istanbul , here you can start to see some agreement between our views.  Islamic Turkey is in the process of taking over the Middle East to establish a large Islamic Empire which will dominate the political landscape of earth. Its happening, but with Europe's support. 

 

So we do not agree perfectly , but the end result of both our views is the same. You believe Islam is the fourth empire which will dominate the earth during the ten horns stage, I believe Islam is the one of the two feet of the fourth empire and Islam will dominate the earth during the ten horns stage.  (our views are pretty close huh?)   :grin: 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Diamond Member
  • Followers:  2
  • Topic Count:  10
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  1,695
  • Content Per Day:  0.45
  • Reputation:   583
  • Days Won:  2
  • Joined:  01/03/2014
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  04/11/1968

 

 

"And in the days of these kings", in the days when Rome has been dispersed, divided, and diluted among the people. I happen to think that there will be a ten-nation confederation arising from the remnants of the roman empire, but that is an inference drawn when comparing the implied ten toes with the ten horns of Dan 7, etc. Beyond that, I think it's somewhat conjectural to try to identify the ten nations- the fact that the list changes every few years lends credence to the idea that this is the wrong tree to be barking up. I put this one in the "we'll know it when we see it" category.

 

 

 

We agree on so much regarding Rome, that I feel a little bad for focussing on a point of difference.  I feel there is a little clue to the defining of these ten kingdoms in an often neglected part of Rev 13:2 And the beast that I saw was like a leopard

 

This is an obvious reference back to Daniel 7; Alexander's Empire, which is described as the leopard. If the final beast has similar borders to Alexander's empire, just refer to inchrist's map of this empire to see which ten countries will be part of the final empire. I could be wrong but the best ten seem to be:

Greece, Turkey, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Israel, Egypt, Iran, Afghanistan, and Libya.  Or maybe replace Libya with Pakistan.

 

This is not conclusive, but I regard it as a likely possible fulfilment of the sentence "the beast that I saw was like a leopard".

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  8
  • Topic Count:  29
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  3,239
  • Content Per Day:  0.86
  • Reputation:   1,686
  • Days Won:  6
  • Joined:  12/26/2013
  • Status:  Offline

Inchrist,

You know I'm a huge fan of yours and Marilyn as well, but........

If you guys believe the Rome Empire, arguably the greatest world empire known, is not included in Daniel, then it seems to me you are more interested in fitting in scripture to support your agenda than you are rightly dividing the word.

There is NO WAY Rome is not a part of that statue for many reasons, common sense being one.

Its not my purpose to be mean here and I definitely appreciate your many great insights you have shared, but this one......

Ugh! Sigh!

In love,

Spock

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Advanced Member
  • Followers:  0
  • Topic Count:  3
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  249
  • Content Per Day:  0.07
  • Reputation:   107
  • Days Won:  2
  • Joined:  06/29/2014
  • Status:  Offline

I would like to help Marilyn C build her case here and also present an alternative view here.

 

Daniel 2:40

And the fourth kingdom shall be as strong as iron, inasmuch as iron breaks in pieces and shatters everything; and like iron that crushes, that kingdom will break in pieces and crush all the others.

 

Notice the bold. That one kingdom will crush ALL the other kingdoms. It doesn’t say that about any of the other kingdoms before it. This means this 4th kingdom will have crushed, or conquered, all the areas of the Babylonian, Medo-Persian, and Grecian kingdoms. The Roman Empire never conquered all the areas of the 3 previous empires only the areas around the mediterranean sea.

 

All the other kingdoms, refers to the three previously mentioned. It's poor hermeneutics to change the definition of a word from one sentence to the next. Kingdom is consistently used here of the empires, not the individual city-states that comprised the empire.
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Advanced Member
  • Followers:  0
  • Topic Count:  3
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  249
  • Content Per Day:  0.07
  • Reputation:   107
  • Days Won:  2
  • Joined:  06/29/2014
  • Status:  Offline

"And in the days of these kings", in the days when Rome has been dispersed, divided, and diluted among the people. I happen to think that there will be a ten-nation confederation arising from the remnants of the roman empire, but that is an inference drawn when comparing the implied ten toes with the ten horns of Dan 7, etc. Beyond that, I think it's somewhat conjectural to try to identify the ten nations- the fact that the list changes every few years lends credence to the idea that this is the wrong tree to be barking up. I put this one in the "we'll know it when we see it" category.

 

We agree on so much regarding Rome, that I feel a little bad for focussing on a point of difference.  I feel there is a little clue to the defining of these ten kingdoms in an often neglected part of Rev 13:2 And the beast that I saw was like a leopard

 

This is an obvious reference back to Daniel 7; Alexander's Empire, which is described as the leopard. If the final beast has similar borders to Alexander's empire, just refer to inchrist's map of this empire to see which ten countries will be part of the final empire. I could be wrong but the best ten seem to be:

Greece, Turkey, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Israel, Egypt, Iran, Afghanistan, and Libya.  Or maybe replace Libya with Pakistan.

 

This is not conclusive, but I regard it as a likely possible fulfilment of the sentence "the beast that I saw was like a leopard".

Rev 13:1-2 refers to aspects of all four beasts of Dan 7. The Rev 13 beast is like Neb's dream, a composite beast that represents world dominion. In Dan 7, the beasts are in chronological order looking forward, in Rev 13 the order is reversed, as John is looking from the point of view of the future, looking back.
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Diamond Member
  • Followers:  2
  • Topic Count:  10
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  1,695
  • Content Per Day:  0.45
  • Reputation:   583
  • Days Won:  2
  • Joined:  01/03/2014
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  04/11/1968

 

 

"And in the days of these kings", in the days when Rome has been dispersed, divided, and diluted among the people. I happen to think that there will be a ten-nation confederation arising from the remnants of the roman empire, but that is an inference drawn when comparing the implied ten toes with the ten horns of Dan 7, etc. Beyond that, I think it's somewhat conjectural to try to identify the ten nations- the fact that the list changes every few years lends credence to the idea that this is the wrong tree to be barking up. I put this one in the "we'll know it when we see it" category.

 

We agree on so much regarding Rome, that I feel a little bad for focussing on a point of difference.  I feel there is a little clue to the defining of these ten kingdoms in an often neglected part of Rev 13:2 And the beast that I saw was like a leopard

 

This is an obvious reference back to Daniel 7; Alexander's Empire, which is described as the leopard. If the final beast has similar borders to Alexander's empire, just refer to inchrist's map of this empire to see which ten countries will be part of the final empire. I could be wrong but the best ten seem to be:

Greece, Turkey, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Israel, Egypt, Iran, Afghanistan, and Libya.  Or maybe replace Libya with Pakistan.

 

This is not conclusive, but I regard it as a likely possible fulfilment of the sentence "the beast that I saw was like a leopard".

Rev 13:1-2 refers to aspects of all four beasts of Dan 7. The Rev 13 beast is like Neb's dream, a composite beast that represents world dominion. In Dan 7, the beasts are in chronological order looking forward, in Rev 13 the order is reversed, as John is looking from the point of view of the future, looking back.

 

 

Yes, it is certainly possible to see the reference to the other 3 beasts in Revelation 13 as a reference to the historical derivation of the final beast. Its one of those cases where I cant prove my case, and the text itself also supports both our views. Although the reference to the mouth, the feet and the "resembling" seem to go beyond mere historical derivation. And seems more limited than a world empire, despite the worldwide authority of the fourth beast. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Advanced Member
  • Followers:  0
  • Topic Count:  3
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  249
  • Content Per Day:  0.07
  • Reputation:   107
  • Days Won:  2
  • Joined:  06/29/2014
  • Status:  Offline

 

 

 

We know elsewhere in the bible that we are supposed to be clay moulded into pots for good use. This means clay is a symbol of flexibility to the truth (true religion). Brittle clay represent false religion.

 

So already we know from scripture to look for a consecutive empire of Rome, which still has Rome in it (iron) and is a divided kingdom, divided into two divisions (two feet), and now has false religion in its leadership (clay as part of the kingdom). 

 

Nothing is conclusive, but if you are open to whats obvious you would see some truths in what I say, from the scriptures. Unless you have something more obvious for me.

 

I think one area where you are going off-track is with the clay. You're reading significance into the soft/hard aspects of clay, but I don't think that is valid. I've never seen a useful pot made with soft clay, for instance. Since the idiom is defined in the very next verse, I think that's the one that should be used, and it is consistent with the clay idiom throughout scripture:

 

[Dan 2:43 NKJV] "As you saw iron mixed with ceramic clay, they will mingle with the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, just as iron does not mix with clay.

 

It seems you're reading a religious overtone into the clay, and thus trying to fit in the papacy or islam. I think the more scripturally supported view is that the clay is simply people.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Advanced Member
  • Followers:  0
  • Topic Count:  3
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  249
  • Content Per Day:  0.07
  • Reputation:   107
  • Days Won:  2
  • Joined:  06/29/2014
  • Status:  Offline

Yes, it is certainly possible to see the reference to the other 3 beasts in Revelation 13 as a reference to the historical derivation of the final beast. Its one of those cases where I cant prove my case, and the text itself also supports both our views. Although the reference to the mouth, the feet and the "resembling" seem to go beyond mere historical derivation. And seems more limited than a world empire, despite the worldwide authority of the fourth beast. 

 

In 13:1 the seven heads/ten horns/ten crowns are introduced, and 13:2a is added so you know for sure what his frame of reference is. I see all of Rev 13:2a as a reference to Dan 7, so that you would know that the ten horns of Rev 13 are in the same idiom as the ten horns of Dan 7.  Then, only the heads and horns are dealt with in the remainder of the chapter. I don't see 13:2 as adding to the description of the heads/horns, just telling you that he's using Dan 7 as the background for this beast.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Diamond Member
  • Followers:  2
  • Topic Count:  10
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  1,695
  • Content Per Day:  0.45
  • Reputation:   583
  • Days Won:  2
  • Joined:  01/03/2014
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  04/11/1968

 

Yes, it is certainly possible to see the reference to the other 3 beasts in Revelation 13 as a reference to the historical derivation of the final beast. Its one of those cases where I cant prove my case, and the text itself also supports both our views. Although the reference to the mouth, the feet and the "resembling" seem to go beyond mere historical derivation. And seems more limited than a world empire, despite the worldwide authority of the fourth beast. 

 

In 13:1 the seven heads/ten horns/ten crowns are introduced, and 13:2a is added so you know for sure what his frame of reference is. I see all of Rev 13:2a as a reference to Dan 7, so that you would know that the ten horns of Rev 13 are in the same idiom as the ten horns of Dan 7.  Then, only the heads and horns are dealt with in the remainder of the chapter. I don't see 13:2 as adding to the description of the heads/horns, just telling you that he's using Dan 7 as the background for this beast.

 

 

 

Thanks, I used to have that view. But as I've become more convinced about the Middle Eastern nature of the ten horns kingdom, so I've increasingly regarded the symbols of Rev 13:2 as confirming this. But I cannot prove this, so at this stage maybe a wait and see approach is best.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...