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Seeking1

How does "Matthew 17:21" make sense for those who believe no C

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How does "Matthew 17:21" make sense for those who believe no Christian can ever have a demon?

 

I have been curious about whether or not a born again Christian can have a demon inside them, or be unknowingly influenced by one from the inside of their bodies and still be born again. When I say "influenced," I mean that a demon can literally control someone's bodily movements, such as giving Satanic hand signals like the 666 hand sign, the El Diablo hand sign, etc (if you don't know what I am taking about, look them up online for your own reference).

 

I have seen so-called Christian leaders doing this in online videos, and I am confident the Holy Spirit of Christ Jesus would NEVER lead a person fully right with God (at least not one fully filled with the Holy Ghost) to make these kinds of blasphemous hand signs. It is possible the person may be born again that is doing these signs, but in my mind, there is NO WAY they can be fully right with God. They must either be holding to some false doctrine that is displeasing to God, or they have let evil in somewhere in their lives. 

 

I have some interesting doctrinal questions concerning this.

 

There is an interesting passage in the Bible about getting rid of demons. Here is the account:

 

Matthew 17:14-21 states,

 

14 And when they were come to the multitude, there came to him a certain man, kneeling down to him, and saying,

15 Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water.
16 And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him.
17 Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.
18 And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.
19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
21 Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.
 
The last statement, "Howbeit this kind [of demon] goeth not out but by prayer and fasting," provides an interesting conundrum for those who believe no Christian could ever have a devil. If getting rid of a demon is ALWAYS a simple matter of being born again, why would Jesus Christ have ever uttered these words to his disciples? Why wouldn't He have simply stated, "The child must first believe in Me and the power of the gospel so that he can be born again and cleansed?" Remember, Jesus wasn't saying this to the unbelieving Jews, but to His own disciples! He did NOT utter parables to His disciples, but revealed all things to them! He wasn't trying to hide His true teachings from them! These same disciples would go on to later provide the doctrines and practices of the New Testament Church! 
 
Why would Jesus give them wrong or inferior advice which could get used later on in church teachings? If no Christian can ever have a demon, then why would Jesus say to "fast and pray?" "Fasting and praying" sure seems like works salvation if only a person who hasn't been born again is advised to do this! If a Christian is the one doing this, then that charge doesn't stand because it would be to his/her sanctification rather than salvation, since of course, they are already born again. If NO Christian can ever have a devil, why would Jesus Christ utter such a confusing statement? Remember, God says He is NOT the author of confusion. Why would God make things so complicated then for future believers with such a statement? Why not simply say that they must believe the gospel only, and His Holy Spirit will take care of the rest? This makes no sense to me!
 
What do you think of this? I would be glad to hear your opinions! :)
Edited by Seeking1
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This (Matthew 17) is before the Holy Spirit was poured out onto the World, so a lot of it is irrelevant to your points.

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This (Matthew 17) is before the Holy Spirit was poured out onto the World, so a lot of it is irrelevant to your points.

 

Thank you for your reply, OakWood. So you believe that Matthew 17:21 only applied to times before the first outpouring of the Holy Ghost at Pentecost, since the Holy Ghost hadn't been provided yet at that time? You may be correct, although the Bible never directly says this, but I guess it could definitely be implied. So you are therefore of the position that no truly born again Christian could EVER be influenced from the inside by a devil in the way that I described? Therefore, if such a person was claiming to be born again, you would definitely say no way? Just curious :)

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Was The Fellow Who Jesus Cured A Believer?

 

You Think?

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It's complicated and I'm not into writing books on here that no one would take the time to read....   but if you're really interested:::

 

 

"Spiritual  Warfare  Christians, Demonization and Deliverance"  by Dr. Karl I. Payne goes into great detail.

 

Standing toe to toe doesn't always come out the way you want it to if a lot of things in your life are not right....  I would suggest reading this book before you start demanding demons around.

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It simply is not true that demons cannot bother or harrass a Christian.  Possession?  I don't think so....but that leaves plenty of room

 

Ephesians 6  is not warning non-saved people to be aware of the devil and his operations

 

I would go further, actually, and state that I am of the opinion that a Christian can have a demon or demonic problem that does need to be

cast out in the name of Jesus.  I've seen it...that does not mean possession

 

However, the devil can operate with far more freedom than many saved people may believe

 

It's a big subject if one takes the time to study it

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This (Matthew 17) is before the Holy Spirit was poured out onto the World, so a lot of it is irrelevant to your points.

 

Thank you for your reply, OakWood. So you believe that Matthew 17:21 only applied to times before the first outpouring of the Holy Ghost at Pentecost, since the Holy Ghost hadn't been provided yet at that time? You may be correct, although the Bible never directly says this, but I guess it could definitely be implied. So you are therefore of the position that no truly born again Christian could EVER be influenced from the inside by a devil in the way that I described? Therefore, if such a person was claiming to be born again, you would definitely say no way? Just curious :)

 

 

I'm not sure if a truly born again Christian could ever be influenced from the inside by a devil but we have a current thread that is already discussing this which I haven't really looked at much myself. You may find some answers there:

 

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How does "Matthew 17:21" make sense for those who believe no Christian can ever have a demon?

 

I have been curious about whether or not a born again Christian can have a demon inside them, or be unknowingly influenced by one from the inside of their bodies and still be born again. When I say "influenced," I mean that a demon can literally control someone's bodily movements, such as giving Satanic hand signals like the 666 hand sign, the El Diablo hand sign, etc (if you don't know what I am taking about, look them up online for your own reference).

 

I have seen so-called Christian leaders doing this in online videos, and I am confident the Holy Spirit of Christ Jesus would NEVER lead a person fully right with God (at least not one fully filled with the Holy Ghost) to make these kinds of blasphemous hand signs. It is possible the person may be born again that is doing these signs, but in my mind, there is NO WAY they can be fully right with God. They must either be holding to some false doctrine that is displeasing to God, or they have let evil in somewhere in their lives. 

 

I have some interesting doctrinal questions concerning this.

 

There is an interesting passage in the Bible about getting rid of demons. Here is the account:

 

Matthew 17:14-21 states,

 

14 And when they were come to the multitude, there came to him a certain man, kneeling down to him, and saying,

15 Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water.
16 And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him.
17 Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.
18 And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.
19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
21 Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.
 
The last statement, "Howbeit this kind [of demon] goeth not out but by prayer and fasting," provides an interesting conundrum for those who believe no Christian could ever have a devil. If getting rid of a demon is ALWAYS a simple matter of being born again, why would Jesus Christ have ever uttered these words to his disciples? Why wouldn't He have simply stated, "The child must first believe in Me and the power of the gospel so that he can be born again and cleansed?" Remember, Jesus wasn't saying this to the unbelieving Jews, but to His own disciples! He did NOT utter parables to His disciples, but revealed all things to them! He wasn't trying to hide His true teachings from them! These same disciples would go on to later provide the doctrines and practices of the New Testament Church! 
 
Why would Jesus give them wrong or inferior advice which could get used later on in church teachings? If no Christian can ever have a demon, then why would Jesus say to "fast and pray?" "Fasting and praying" sure seems like works salvation if only a person who hasn't been born again is advised to do this! If a Christian is the one doing this, then that charge doesn't stand because it would be to his/her sanctification rather than salvation, since of course, they are already born again. If NO Christian can ever have a devil, why would Jesus Christ utter such a confusing statement? Remember, God says He is NOT the author of confusion. Why would God make things so complicated then for future believers with such a statement? Why not simply say that they must believe the gospel only, and His Holy Spirit will take care of the rest? This makes no sense to me!
 
What do you think of this? I would be glad to hear your opinions! :)

 

 

Good point you are making there.

It's not a confusing statement by Jesus, as you already pointed out God is not the author of confusion. We are the ones who make it complicated because we refuse to believe what God has said and what God has done and wants us to do:

 

Mark 16:15-18

And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

 

These are the signs Jesus said should follow ALL true believers. He was commanding us to cast OUT demons, He didn't say cast away from on top or brush off etc. It's taken out of somebody!

And yes, demons for the most part indwell people. That's where they are hiding, in the body and the soul of a person and that doesn't matter if they are saved or not. Demons come in through sin and they do not make a difference between a believer and unbeliever. A believer's spirit is the part of a person that is "saved" born again, new nature. The soul (mind, will and emotions) as well as the body have to be submitted to that. That's why it says in Rom 12:2 to renew your mind and also that the scriptures tell us to submit our bodies as a holy temple, etc... So the point of possession of a believer cannot be his spirt, that's true, but he can still be possessed by an evil spirit in his soul and body, those are the areas of attack and mostly  will manifest by hearing voices, being tormented in mind and emotions and then sickness in the body.

So Jesus tells us to set people free from these things, that's what the whole gospel about, not only salvation. (Luke 4:18). He said He came to destroy the works of the devil and greater things than He did we should do!

Unfortunately most churches nowadays totally ignore this or don't want to have anything to do with this, for the most part for fear of losing tithers in their congregations and not to upset or offend anybody and various other reasons.

 

As far as casting out of demons from people I can say this: It's almost not possible, let alone useless and futile to cast demons out of anybody that is not saved and under most circumstances not recommended at all. First of all demons have a right to be where they are at in a person because of sin. Sin needs to be repented before God and then this sin renounced, before they can be successfully cast out. If in rare circumstances they actually would leave out of an unbeliever, because of the anointing of the one casting them out, they would come right back in if the person has not removed that right and filled that space with the Holy Spirit. That's when Jesus is taking about the 7 times worse state of a person than before. It would just make things worse for the unbeliever, they would not be able to keep the demons out that just left unless they become believers right afterwards.

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Darkness cannot dwell where there is light. A demon would not want to get in the same body as The Son of God. I have heard this conversation before, the demons left. The empty house does need to be filled with light though.

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Does it matter whether they are inside or outside the body when they are messing with you?

I have seen way more than enough scripture that can be interpreted as from the inside not to leave it as a possibility.

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