How does "Matthew 17:21" make sense for those who believe no C

[Fez]

 

Dr. Karl Payne has been dealing with demonic activity within Christians for many years....   According to him through his experience and I would have to agree,  if a Christian has any unrepentant sin in his/her life, or some sin that is repetitive, a demon can attach himself through that sin and have a great effect on the Christian in many other areas.    And until the sin is dealt with you simply can not deal with the demon for it has the legal right to be there so to speak.

 Correct!

 

This is not possession it is oppression.

 

How can the Holy Spirit and a demon live within one at the same time?

 

There cannot be darkness where there is light.

[Rodney]

We live in a world that is controlled by interpretation of words. Man tries to be God and God is the Word and the Word is God. It seems we are trying to justify what is legal through interpretation. Example: A few months back the Constitution was being challenged on the right to bear arms. Those who wanted to make having guns illegal tried to change the meaning of the right to bear arms. People play with Gods words daily. Look at proverbs 11:16 KJV key word is strong, in ASV same scripture strong is replaced with violent. Sin will always open you up for possession and praying asking for forgiveness of sin and the strength to overcome those sins will free you from possession. Prayer, Prayer, Prayer. People fail to truly understand Jesus and his teachings. Matthew 12:25-26 Jesus is saying that he knew their thoughts, Telepathy, mind reading, yet we deny the capability. John 14:12 KJV says if we believe in Jesus we will do greater works than Jesus did while he was here on earth. Works in other versions is written as miracles. Today we have so much technology without Jesus in your life you will fall prey to Satan. Prayer is what stops the attack of Demons and through Prayer the demons are cast out. Bottom line is simple PRAY. We all sin and fall short. Thank you God for your grace and mercy and your son Jesus which through his sacrifice of his life we can be forgiven and have eternal life in glory. 

[Warrior777]

 

 

Dr. Karl Payne has been dealing with demonic activity within Christians for many years....   According to him through his experience and I would have to agree,  if a Christian has any unrepentant sin in his/her life, or some sin that is repetitive, a demon can attach himself through that sin and have a great effect on the Christian in many other areas.    And until the sin is dealt with you simply can not deal with the demon for it has the legal right to be there so to speak.

 Correct!

 

This is not possession it is oppression.

 

How can the Holy Spirit and a demon live within one at the same time?

 

There cannot be darkness where there is light.

 

Please read or reread my posts completely, I answered this question several times already.

[Warrior777]

We live in a world that is controlled by interpretation of words. Man tries to be God and God is the Word and the Word is God. It seems we are trying to justify what is legal through interpretation. Example: A few months back the Constitution was being challenged on the right to bear arms. Those who wanted to make having guns illegal tried to change the meaning of the right to bear arms. People play with Gods words daily. Look at proverbs 11:16 KJV key word is strong, in ASV same scripture strong is replaced with violent. Sin will always open you up for possession and praying asking for forgiveness of sin and the strength to overcome those sins will free you from possession. Prayer, Prayer, Prayer. People fail to truly understand Jesus and his teachings. Matthew 12:25-26 Jesus is saying that he knew their thoughts, Telepathy, mind reading, yet we deny the capability. John 14:12 KJV says if we believe in Jesus we will do greater works than Jesus did while he was here on earth. Works in other versions is written as miracles. Today we have so much technology without Jesus in your life you will fall prey to Satan. Prayer is what stops the attack of Demons and through Prayer the demons are cast out. Bottom line is simple PRAY. We all sin and fall short. Thank you God for your grace and mercy and your son Jesus which through his sacrifice of his life we can be forgiven and have eternal life in glory. 

Just  a quick response. Jesus did NOT use telepathy, He simply knew because the Holy Spirit knows, it's the gift of the Spirit, word of knowledge, there is no real telepathy, demons are trying to copy the gift of the spirit with familiar spirits, they can inject thoughts into ones mind and then tell others about it, also they know a person very well if they have been in that family line for ages so they know and become "familiar" they pretty much pass on info.

Yes, we need to pray and repent and renounce the works of darkness and then cast out the demons to get free from bondage.

[Warrior777]

 

 

 

You of course have the right to disagree but you are still wrong. Those scriptures do not prove that a demon cannot come into a born again believer.

 

What you are teaching is false. None of the verses you brought declares that a believer can be possessed.  Oppressed, yes, possessed, no. All you have shown is how a person can turn from Christ or be influenced by demonic forces. You are forgetting one very vital verse.

1 Corinthians 6:19

Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?

 

 

 

 

Remember we are a three part being, body, soul and spirit. If we are born again the demon cannot influence out spirit, but if we stray our body and soul can be influenced and oppressed. Can we be possessed? I'm not really sure about this. It is a good discussion because there are so many variables. Is the person actually born again would be my first question.

Hi Lance, your part right Christians can be oppressed but not possessed.  Dark and light cannot be in  the same place.  And your  question a good one was this person really saved in the first place.

 

Because He Lives!! Rustyangel

 

 

 Your definition of "possession" is semantics! Possession is the taking over of a part or the whole of a thing or person and controlling it (whole or in part!). If a sickness takes over (like cancer) part of your body, it now controls and influences that part of your body - is it inside or outside?! Many people are instantly healed when a demon comes OUT of a person (see scriptures backing this up), so the sickness and the demon are so correlated that sickness depends on that demon to be there or the demon is the cause and enabler of the sickness.  Now the same sickness is in Christians as well as in non-Christains! Isn't it? After Jesus cast out demons and the person is healed, He warns them not to sin anymore or it will come back worse. Now there you see that sin brought the demon in and it will come back when that sin is done again. Why even telling an unbeliever to do that? How can an unbeliever not sin? They live in sin...

 

 

Sickness is mostly the result of cell degeneration, not always from demonic possession.  That is the problem with today's deliverance ministry, it tries to tie everything in nature to demonic influences or possession, finding demons in every shadow and under every rock.  Very few have it right today.

 

Let's take a look at the what scripture tells us about demons and possession.  The text I use is from:

 

The Complete Word Study Dictionary

Edited by Spiros Zodhiates Th.D.

ISBN: 089957663X

ISBN-13: 9780899576633

UPC: 9780899576633

 

G1139

daimonizomenous

 

To be violently possessed by, to be in the power of a demon.

• Possessed by a demon or a devil (Matt.8:16, 28, 33; 9:32; 12:22; 15:22; Mark 1:32; 5:15, 16, 18; Luke 8:36; John 10:21, see John 10:20); having a demon (John 7:20).  The daimonizomenous, those violently possessed by demons, are distinguished from other sick folk in Matt. 4:24; Mark 1:32.  In addition to the term daimonizomenous, the pres. mid. part. of the verb meaning demon-possessed (Matt 4:24), there are other expressions used in the Gospels such as dismonistheis, the aor. pass. part. indicating a definite entrance into a person (Mark 5:18; Like 8:36); also a man with an unclean spirit (Mark 1:23; 5:2) where the prep. en (1722) refers to being in the power of demons; having demons (Luke 8:27); a man having a spirit or an unclean demon (Luke 4:33); disturbed by unclean spirits (Luke 6:18); driven of a demon (Luke 8:29); and the verb seleniazomai (4583), to be moonstruck, a lunatic.  Most of those who are said to be demon possessed are adult men; the few exceptions are certain women who had been healed of evil spirits such as Mary Magdalene (Luke 8:2), the woman who had been bound by Satan for eighteen years (Luke 13:11, 16), and the little daughter of the Syro-Phoenician woman (Mark 7:25).  IT is, however, probable that others besides men are included in such passages as Mark 1:32ff.; Luke 7:21.  The signs of possession designated as seleniazomai (Matt. 4:24) are distinguished from daimonizomenoi , which would also appear to have been regarded as a sign of possession.  A man who is "mad", in the moderns sense of being out of his mind, is said to have a demon, this being as accusation against John the Baptist (Matt. 11:18) and Christ (John 10:20).
• A demonic is spoken if as the dwelling-place of a demon, and a number of demons can dwell in one person (Matt. 12:45, Mark 5:9; Luke 8:2)
• Sometimes a demon is differentiated from the man possessed (Mark 1:23, 24); at other times the two are identified (Mark 3:11); in Meak 5:1-10 the demon acts both as part of the man and independently of the man.  Differentiation is strongly marked when an expression such as that in Luke 6:18 is used, "They that were vexed [enochloumenoi, {UBS (1776); ochloumenoi, TR (3791)} to annoy, to trouble] with unclean spirits."
• The same outward signs are at one time spoken of as possession, at another as an ordinary sickness (Matt. 4:24; 17:15).  One of Christ's chief works on earth was to annihilate the power of demons; the demons themselves realized this (Mark 1:24; Luke 4:34 [cf. 1 John 3:8]).  The destruction of their kingdom is necessary for the establishment of the kingdom of God.
• With the exception of the case of the woman bound by Satan for eighteen years in Luke 13:11, 16, no instance is recorded of Jesus laying His hands upon or in any way coming in direct contact with the one who is possessed by a demon. On the other hand, His words are never severe when addressing the possessed.
• Very remarkable, moreover, is the fact that even when He speaks to the demon itself, Christ's words are never angry.  He "rebukes" the demon (Mark 1:25; Luke 4:35), but the words of the rebuke are simply, "Hold thy peace, and come out of him," or a command that He should not be made known (Mark 3:12, contrast to Luke 8:39).  On one occasion the request of demons is granted (Matt. 8:31, 32; Mark 5:12, 13; Luke 8:32).
• The power which Christ has over demons is absolute, for they are wholly subject unto Him and are compelled to yield to His obedience (Mark1:27; Luke 4:41).  That it is an unwilling obedience is obvious, and this is graphically brought out, for example, when it is said of a demon that before coming out of a man it threw him down in the midst (Luke 4:35).
• The recognition of Christ by demons is of a kind which is very striking, for He is not only recognized as Jesus of Nazareth, i.e., as born of men, but is also addressed as the "Holy One of God" (Luke 4:34) and as the "Son of God" (Luke 4:41), i.e., as one of Divine nature.  This latter title is emphasized by their knowledge of His power to cast them into the abyss (Luke 8:31), which also accounts for their fear of Him.
• The power of Christ over demons was regarded as something new called he didache he kaine (didache [1322], teaching; kaine [2537], qualitatively new), "new doctrine" (Mark 1:27).  This was because a method of exorcism which was familiar to the Jews until then was the pronouncing of a magical formula over the possessed.  In the Gospels, as a rule, the casting out of a demon is stated without specifying by what means it was done (Mark 1:34; Like 7:21; 8:2). but we learn the methods used from a number of other passages: by a word (Matt. 8:8); in the Spirit of God (Matt. 12:28); with the finger of God (Luke 11:20); through rebuking (epitimao [2008]) (Matt 8:32); through simple saying "Go" (Matt. 8:32); through the saying "Come out" (Mark 5:8; Luke 4:35).  On one occasion the words are addressed to the mother of a child who is possessed, "Be it as thou wantest" (a.t. [Matt 15.28; Mark 7:29]), the possessed child not being in His presence (Mark 7:30), thus His power did not depend on His visible personality.
• In the view of the fact that Jesus Christ has absolute power over the demons, it is impossible for a demon to possess a believer in whose heart Christ dwells.  In Mark 3:22 the scribes say of Christ that "He hath Beelzebub," and in Mark 3:30 occur the words "Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit."  It is evident that Beelzebub, the "prince of the demons," and "unclean spirit" are syn. with "demon."  In John 7:20 the Jews accused Christ of being possessed by a demon because He said they sought to kill Him (John 8:48, 49).
• Christ bestowed this power of casting out demons on His Twelve Apostles (Matt. 10:1; Mark 3:14, 15; Luke 9:1).  When demons were cast out it was by virtue of the power of His Name (Matt. 7:22; Luke 10:17).  Following the Transfiguration, Christ's disciples were not able to do this because of the lack of faith on their part (Matt. 17:20).  We read, however, in Mark 9:38, 39 of one who was not a follower of Christ but who was, nevertheless, able to cast out demons in His name (cf. Matt. 12:27; Luke 11:19).
• Some forms of possession were regarded as mental derangement.  Christ speaks of John the Baptist having been looked upon as possessed (Matt. 11:18; Luke 7:33).  He was so regarded because his mode of life seemed to be somewhat eccentric.  The man who was possessed was despised because he spoke what was deemed nonsense,  The supposed connection between possession and mental derangement is pointedly brought out in John 10:20, "He hath a devil [daimonion {1140}, demon] as is mad."  While intimates in the Synoptic Gospels that the possession has no direct connection with moral standing, this is brought forth more clearly in the above verse.  In addition, the verb mainetai (3105), is mad, is also used in 1 Cor. 14:23 in regard to the persons who utter ecstatic utterances in the church.

emphasis mine

 

 

OneLight - you have totally missed the point of a Christian "having an evil heart of unbelief" or being FULL of bitterness (filled with an evil spirit that is) read it again, pray over it, maybe you will get the revelation.

Have you ever tried to cast a demon out of an unbeliever? Please try it and then let's talk again, if you don't then anything you say is theoretical hearsay that your church taught you (NOT scripture).

No matter how many times you quote this verse. Nowhere does it say that the Holy Spirit inhabiting a person where that person cannot  have a demon at the same time? Have you ever seen in the Bible where a demon is wiped away or shooed away from a person? They are all cast OUT!

You forgot that if a demon speaks OUT of somebody that demon has to be INSIDE a person - see Peter, Apostles etc... you just don't want to see it, since it goes against what you want to believe. All you can do is to cling to this one verse that doesn't say anything to the contrary of what I just said. If it was true that nothing evil could come INTO a person when the Holy Spirit resides in them, they also would be UNABLE to sin or get any form of sickness, since then the Holy Spirit would "live" inside a body that also inhabits a form of evil or darkness (remember the scripture with the - part dark!) That was Jesus warning of not having darkness in there with the Light - He said it to believers! otherwise, if that was not possible then why even making that point?

 

By the way, we ONLY cast demons out of Christians (successfully now for many years) and make sure that they have accepted Jesus beforehand! And yes, they are really saved and spirit filled and or baptized (like Simon was in Acts!). Everything else is really futile, like I said before, one has to be repentive in that area in order to cast the demon out successfully and you can't do that if you are not saved/believe in Jesus, otherwise the demon has a right to that person (because of curses, sin) to be in that area it is in and it doesn't mean that that demon controls the whole person but only torments that part it has a right to (in soul or body) , the person still can worship God, pray etc.  The Holy spirit lives in your SPIRIT not in the body!!! the body is just the house of your spirit. It's separate. When you die you leave this body behind but your spirit goes on with the Holy Spirit. Your soul needs to be still redeemed, it is not saved, neither is your body, otherwise there would be no need to RENEW your MIND in Rom 12:2 and to be admonished to keep your body clean - so meaning it can be defiled. By what? The word 'defiled' is always in connection with an evil spirit. You defile your body by sinning, letting a demon INSIDE of you, which then brings darkness in your body and sickness and disease. It all works together like that.

The above is false, period.  God will never leave nor forsake us!  He will never allow a demonic power to enter into the temple of the Holy Spirit or into the heart or mind of His new creation, the saved man.  We are sealed by the Holy Spirit and no longer belong to ourselves, but belong fully and completely to God.  God will, in no way, allow Himself, being part of Christ Body, to be possessed by a demon, otherwise, He Himself would be possessed.

 

You are trying to find demons in the flesh, giving demons far too much credit when no credit can be made.  They cannot, and will never, possess a child of God.  They can only possessed the unsaved, so your teaching that one must become a Christian first is also false.

 

I don't know who the "We" are you speak of that cast demons out of Christians, but scripture is fully against your false doctrine.  You really need to get away from those who teach you such lies.

 

 

 

 

Please don't put words in my mouth I never said all sickness is always a direct demonic result (most often though indirectly) but a major part still is. Also I never said that the Holy Spirit will leave or forsake us just because one is dealing with one or more demons that is nonsense.

But you cannot tell me that when a demons speaks out of a believer that the demon is not INSIDE a person. Further you can only repeat saying that this teaching is false but have no way of backing up your point. That excerpt you posted actually makes my point. 

 You can believe what you want but thousands of people have been helped by the ministries that I have been with, including my own ministry (That's "we", including all reputable ministries out there that do deliverance as we are commanded by Jesus, because it is part of the Gospel). So you tell all those people that they either are not saved or that their deliverance, healing and freedom from bondage is not real. But watch out who you judge about their salvation, you make yourself out to judge as God there! 

 

So if you think that only unsaved people supposed to have demons please do try to cast them out and see what happens, then you can make this statement, until then it's just your opinion, but you never did, so how can you say that it is so. An unsaved person does not have the covenant relationship with Jesus to have the right to be delivered, only the saved have that ( from Sozo - saved, healed, delivered). You have never dealt with a saved person that was so in bondage that they wanted to kill themselves or could not handle the demonic torture anymore or was in addiction of all kinds and then to see the relief after the demon leaves after deliverance, I am talking about proven saved people here filled with the Spirit. I seldom bring my own experiences into discussions like this, but they do back up what the Bible teaches and Jesus is the deliverer that set these people free. I myself was set free from some demonic bondage and the demon even spoke out of me during the deliverance and then I was set free from several things. That was after walking with God and the Holy Spirit for over 25 years. So I know first hand what I am talking about and that it is indeed biblical.

 

 

At this point it's futile to discuss anything further with you, since it just ends up in an argument back and forth and that does not do anybody good and easily becomes sin itself. I presented the truth and people can either take it or leave it.

[Rodney]

Jesus did not say the Holy spirit told him their thoughts. Step up your research on telepathy, twins have demonstrated these abilities for a long time now and all of them are not Christians. I have twins throughout my family with the ability to use telepathy. Every scholar and every expert, even the most knowledgeable captains of sailing ships all agreed that the world was flat. One man disagreed and said the world was round and he was willing to prove it, Christopher Columbus. I don't care how many agree on a subject, that does not make it right. The majority believed Jesus was crazy, claiming to be the messiah and the son of God. No matter how many connected and agreed that Jesus was crazy it did not change the truth; even crucifying him on a cross did not make the majority right.   

[OneLight]

 

 

 

 

You of course have the right to disagree but you are still wrong. Those scriptures do not prove that a demon cannot come into a born again believer.

 

What you are teaching is false. None of the verses you brought declares that a believer can be possessed.  Oppressed, yes, possessed, no. All you have shown is how a person can turn from Christ or be influenced by demonic forces. You are forgetting one very vital verse.

1 Corinthians 6:19

Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?

 

 

 

 

Remember we are a three part being, body, soul and spirit. If we are born again the demon cannot influence out spirit, but if we stray our body and soul can be influenced and oppressed. Can we be possessed? I'm not really sure about this. It is a good discussion because there are so many variables. Is the person actually born again would be my first question.

Hi Lance, your part right Christians can be oppressed but not possessed.  Dark and light cannot be in  the same place.  And your  question a good one was this person really saved in the first place.

 

Because He Lives!! Rustyangel

 

 

 Your definition of "possession" is semantics! Possession is the taking over of a part or the whole of a thing or person and controlling it (whole or in part!). If a sickness takes over (like cancer) part of your body, it now controls and influences that part of your body - is it inside or outside?! Many people are instantly healed when a demon comes OUT of a person (see scriptures backing this up), so the sickness and the demon are so correlated that sickness depends on that demon to be there or the demon is the cause and enabler of the sickness.  Now the same sickness is in Christians as well as in non-Christains! Isn't it? After Jesus cast out demons and the person is healed, He warns them not to sin anymore or it will come back worse. Now there you see that sin brought the demon in and it will come back when that sin is done again. Why even telling an unbeliever to do that? How can an unbeliever not sin? They live in sin...

 

 

Sickness is mostly the result of cell degeneration, not always from demonic possession.  That is the problem with today's deliverance ministry, it tries to tie everything in nature to demonic influences or possession, finding demons in every shadow and under every rock.  Very few have it right today.

 

Let's take a look at the what scripture tells us about demons and possession.  The text I use is from:

 

The Complete Word Study Dictionary

Edited by Spiros Zodhiates Th.D.

ISBN: 089957663X

ISBN-13: 9780899576633

UPC: 9780899576633

 

G1139

daimonizomenous

 

To be violently possessed by, to be in the power of a demon.

• Possessed by a demon or a devil (Matt.8:16, 28, 33; 9:32; 12:22; 15:22; Mark 1:32; 5:15, 16, 18; Luke 8:36; John 10:21, see John 10:20); having a demon (John 7:20).  The daimonizomenous, those violently possessed by demons, are distinguished from other sick folk in Matt. 4:24; Mark 1:32.  In addition to the term daimonizomenous, the pres. mid. part. of the verb meaning demon-possessed (Matt 4:24), there are other expressions used in the Gospels such as dismonistheis, the aor. pass. part. indicating a definite entrance into a person (Mark 5:18; Like 8:36); also a man with an unclean spirit (Mark 1:23; 5:2) where the prep. en (1722) refers to being in the power of demons; having demons (Luke 8:27); a man having a spirit or an unclean demon (Luke 4:33); disturbed by unclean spirits (Luke 6:18); driven of a demon (Luke 8:29); and the verb seleniazomai (4583), to be moonstruck, a lunatic.  Most of those who are said to be demon possessed are adult men; the few exceptions are certain women who had been healed of evil spirits such as Mary Magdalene (Luke 8:2), the woman who had been bound by Satan for eighteen years (Luke 13:11, 16), and the little daughter of the Syro-Phoenician woman (Mark 7:25).  IT is, however, probable that others besides men are included in such passages as Mark 1:32ff.; Luke 7:21.  The signs of possession designated as seleniazomai (Matt. 4:24) are distinguished from daimonizomenoi , which would also appear to have been regarded as a sign of possession.  A man who is "mad", in the moderns sense of being out of his mind, is said to have a demon, this being as accusation against John the Baptist (Matt. 11:18) and Christ (John 10:20).
• A demonic is spoken if as the dwelling-place of a demon, and a number of demons can dwell in one person (Matt. 12:45, Mark 5:9; Luke 8:2)
• Sometimes a demon is differentiated from the man possessed (Mark 1:23, 24); at other times the two are identified (Mark 3:11); in Meak 5:1-10 the demon acts both as part of the man and independently of the man.  Differentiation is strongly marked when an expression such as that in Luke 6:18 is used, "They that were vexed [enochloumenoi, {UBS (1776); ochloumenoi, TR (3791)} to annoy, to trouble] with unclean spirits."
• The same outward signs are at one time spoken of as possession, at another as an ordinary sickness (Matt. 4:24; 17:15).  One of Christ's chief works on earth was to annihilate the power of demons; the demons themselves realized this (Mark 1:24; Luke 4:34 [cf. 1 John 3:8]).  The destruction of their kingdom is necessary for the establishment of the kingdom of God.
• With the exception of the case of the woman bound by Satan for eighteen years in Luke 13:11, 16, no instance is recorded of Jesus laying His hands upon or in any way coming in direct contact with the one who is possessed by a demon. On the other hand, His words are never severe when addressing the possessed.
• Very remarkable, moreover, is the fact that even when He speaks to the demon itself, Christ's words are never angry.  He "rebukes" the demon (Mark 1:25; Luke 4:35), but the words of the rebuke are simply, "Hold thy peace, and come out of him," or a command that He should not be made known (Mark 3:12, contrast to Luke 8:39).  On one occasion the request of demons is granted (Matt. 8:31, 32; Mark 5:12, 13; Luke 8:32).
• The power which Christ has over demons is absolute, for they are wholly subject unto Him and are compelled to yield to His obedience (Mark1:27; Luke 4:41).  That it is an unwilling obedience is obvious, and this is graphically brought out, for example, when it is said of a demon that before coming out of a man it threw him down in the midst (Luke 4:35).
• The recognition of Christ by demons is of a kind which is very striking, for He is not only recognized as Jesus of Nazareth, i.e., as born of men, but is also addressed as the "Holy One of God" (Luke 4:34) and as the "Son of God" (Luke 4:41), i.e., as one of Divine nature.  This latter title is emphasized by their knowledge of His power to cast them into the abyss (Luke 8:31), which also accounts for their fear of Him.
• The power of Christ over demons was regarded as something new called he didache he kaine (didache [1322], teaching; kaine [2537], qualitatively new), "new doctrine" (Mark 1:27).  This was because a method of exorcism which was familiar to the Jews until then was the pronouncing of a magical formula over the possessed.  In the Gospels, as a rule, the casting out of a demon is stated without specifying by what means it was done (Mark 1:34; Like 7:21; 8:2). but we learn the methods used from a number of other passages: by a word (Matt. 8:8); in the Spirit of God (Matt. 12:28); with the finger of God (Luke 11:20); through rebuking (epitimao [2008]) (Matt 8:32); through simple saying "Go" (Matt. 8:32); through the saying "Come out" (Mark 5:8; Luke 4:35).  On one occasion the words are addressed to the mother of a child who is possessed, "Be it as thou wantest" (a.t. [Matt 15.28; Mark 7:29]), the possessed child not being in His presence (Mark 7:30), thus His power did not depend on His visible personality.
• In the view of the fact that Jesus Christ has absolute power over the demons, it is impossible for a demon to possess a believer in whose heart Christ dwells.  In Mark 3:22 the scribes say of Christ that "He hath Beelzebub," and in Mark 3:30 occur the words "Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit."  It is evident that Beelzebub, the "prince of the demons," and "unclean spirit" are syn. with "demon."  In John 7:20 the Jews accused Christ of being possessed by a demon because He said they sought to kill Him (John 8:48, 49).
• Christ bestowed this power of casting out demons on His Twelve Apostles (Matt. 10:1; Mark 3:14, 15; Luke 9:1).  When demons were cast out it was by virtue of the power of His Name (Matt. 7:22; Luke 10:17).  Following the Transfiguration, Christ's disciples were not able to do this because of the lack of faith on their part (Matt. 17:20).  We read, however, in Mark 9:38, 39 of one who was not a follower of Christ but who was, nevertheless, able to cast out demons in His name (cf. Matt. 12:27; Luke 11:19).
• Some forms of possession were regarded as mental derangement.  Christ speaks of John the Baptist having been looked upon as possessed (Matt. 11:18; Luke 7:33).  He was so regarded because his mode of life seemed to be somewhat eccentric.  The man who was possessed was despised because he spoke what was deemed nonsense,  The supposed connection between possession and mental derangement is pointedly brought out in John 10:20, "He hath a devil [daimonion {1140}, demon] as is mad."  While intimates in the Synoptic Gospels that the possession has no direct connection with moral standing, this is brought forth more clearly in the above verse.  In addition, the verb mainetai (3105), is mad, is also used in 1 Cor. 14:23 in regard to the persons who utter ecstatic utterances in the church.

emphasis mine

 

 

OneLight - you have totally missed the point of a Christian "having an evil heart of unbelief" or being FULL of bitterness (filled with an evil spirit that is) read it again, pray over it, maybe you will get the revelation.

Have you ever tried to cast a demon out of an unbeliever? Please try it and then let's talk again, if you don't then anything you say is theoretical hearsay that your church taught you (NOT scripture).

No matter how many times you quote this verse. Nowhere does it say that the Holy Spirit inhabiting a person where that person cannot  have a demon at the same time? Have you ever seen in the Bible where a demon is wiped away or shooed away from a person? They are all cast OUT!

You forgot that if a demon speaks OUT of somebody that demon has to be INSIDE a person - see Peter, Apostles etc... you just don't want to see it, since it goes against what you want to believe. All you can do is to cling to this one verse that doesn't say anything to the contrary of what I just said. If it was true that nothing evil could come INTO a person when the Holy Spirit resides in them, they also would be UNABLE to sin or get any form of sickness, since then the Holy Spirit would "live" inside a body that also inhabits a form of evil or darkness (remember the scripture with the - part dark!) That was Jesus warning of not having darkness in there with the Light - He said it to believers! otherwise, if that was not possible then why even making that point?

 

By the way, we ONLY cast demons out of Christians (successfully now for many years) and make sure that they have accepted Jesus beforehand! And yes, they are really saved and spirit filled and or baptized (like Simon was in Acts!). Everything else is really futile, like I said before, one has to be repentive in that area in order to cast the demon out successfully and you can't do that if you are not saved/believe in Jesus, otherwise the demon has a right to that person (because of curses, sin) to be in that area it is in and it doesn't mean that that demon controls the whole person but only torments that part it has a right to (in soul or body) , the person still can worship God, pray etc.  The Holy spirit lives in your SPIRIT not in the body!!! the body is just the house of your spirit. It's separate. When you die you leave this body behind but your spirit goes on with the Holy Spirit. Your soul needs to be still redeemed, it is not saved, neither is your body, otherwise there would be no need to RENEW your MIND in Rom 12:2 and to be admonished to keep your body clean - so meaning it can be defiled. By what? The word 'defiled' is always in connection with an evil spirit. You defile your body by sinning, letting a demon INSIDE of you, which then brings darkness in your body and sickness and disease. It all works together like that.

The above is false, period.  God will never leave nor forsake us!  He will never allow a demonic power to enter into the temple of the Holy Spirit or into the heart or mind of His new creation, the saved man.  We are sealed by the Holy Spirit and no longer belong to ourselves, but belong fully and completely to God.  God will, in no way, allow Himself, being part of Christ Body, to be possessed by a demon, otherwise, He Himself would be possessed.

 

You are trying to find demons in the flesh, giving demons far too much credit when no credit can be made.  They cannot, and will never, possess a child of God.  They can only possessed the unsaved, so your teaching that one must become a Christian first is also false.

 

I don't know who the "We" are you speak of that cast demons out of Christians, but scripture is fully against your false doctrine.  You really need to get away from those who teach you such lies.

 

 

 

 

Please don't put words in my mouth I never said all sickness is always a direct demonic result (most often though indirectly) but a major part still is. Also I never said that the Holy Spirit will leave or forsake us just because one is dealing with one or more demons that is nonsense.

 

 

Please show me where I accused you of claiming that ever illness is due to demonic results.

 

You claim that Christians can be possessed.  That goes against scripture ... "For He Himself has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.”"  If God allowed a child of His to be possessed, He would have to forsake them and turn them over to Satan.  Plain and simple with no twisting of words.

 

But you cannot tell me that when a demons speaks out of a believer that the demon is not INSIDE a person. Further you can only repeat saying that this teaching is false but have no way of backing up your point. That excerpt you posted actually makes my point.

 

Out of all my travels, and my many years in life, I have never once seen a true believer of Christ demon possessed, where a demon speaks out of their mouth.  That is a blatant lie and we, as a ministry, will call anyone who comes here trying to teach falsely to the table.

 

You can believe what you want but thousands of people have been helped by the ministries that I have been with, including my own ministry (That's "we", including all reputable ministries out there that do deliverance as we are commanded by Jesus, because it is part of the Gospel). So you tell all those people that they either are not saved or that their deliverance, healing and freedom from bondage is not real. But watch out who you judge about their salvation, you make yourself out to judge as God there!

 

I would tell them the same thing I have been telling you.  Anyone with the Holy Spirit is not demo possessed.  If they have a demon, then they were never saved in the first place.  Scripture is behind all of what I have said. You yet have provided one piece of scripture that tells us that those who are sealed with the Holy Spirit ever had a demon or could have a demon.  When asked, you turn to your experience in your deliverance ministry as proof.

 

So if you think that only unsaved people supposed to have demons please do try to cast them out and see what happens, then you can make this statement, until then it's just your opinion, but you never did, so how can you say that it is so. An unsaved person does not have the covenant relationship with Jesus to have the right to be delivered, only the saved have that ( from Sozo - saved, healed, delivered). You have never dealt with a saved person that was so in bondage that they wanted to kill themselves or could not handle the demonic torture anymore or was in addiction of all kinds and then to see the relief after the demon leaves after deliverance, I am talking about proven saved people here filled with the Spirit. I seldom bring my own experiences into discussions like this, but they do back up what the Bible teaches and Jesus is the deliverer that set these people free. I myself was set free from some demonic bondage and the demon even spoke out of me during the deliverance and then I was set free from several things. That was after walking with God and the Holy Spirit for over 25 years. So I know first hand what I am talking about and that it is indeed biblical.

 

All garbage.  Every example in scripture of anyone being possessed by a demon proves that they were never saved and sealed by the Holy Spirit. 

 

 

At this point it's futile to discuss anything further with you, since it just ends up in an argument back and forth and that does not do anybody good and easily becomes sin itself. I presented the truth and people can either take it or leave it.

 

The point we are making is that you are not speaking the truth.  That is it, plain and simple.

 

Are we the body of Christ?

Did Christ have a demon, ever?

We, who are His Body, cannot have a demon, wherein if we could, then Christ would also have a demon since we are His body as we abide in Him and He in us.  There has been no scripture provided by you that claims otherwise.

 

I see that you ignored everything that has been presented to date that rebukes your false teaching.  My friend, you have blinders on and cannot see beyond your ministry and what you have come to want others to believe.  If those who follow you did know the truth, you would loose all the Christians you claim are possessed and they would truly be free from any deception cause by your statements and realize that "You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world."

[other one]

 

 

Dr. Karl Payne has been dealing with demonic activity within Christians for many years....   According to him through his experience and I would have to agree,  if a Christian has any unrepentant sin in his/her life, or some sin that is repetitive, a demon can attach himself through that sin and have a great effect on the Christian in many other areas.    And until the sin is dealt with you simply can not deal with the demon for it has the legal right to be there so to speak.

 Correct!

 

This is not possession it is oppression.

 

How can the Holy Spirit and a demon live within one at the same time?

 

There cannot be darkness where there is light.

 

read the book

[Warrior777]

 

 

 

 

 

At this point it's futile to discuss anything further with you, since it just ends up in an argument back and forth and that does not do anybody good and easily becomes sin itself. I presented the truth and people can either take it or leave it.

 

 

Are we the body of Christ?

Did Christ have a demon, ever?

We, who are His Body, cannot have a demon, wherein if we could, then Christ would also have a demon since we are His body as we abide in Him and He in us.  There has been no scripture provided by you that claims otherwise.

 

 

 

 

Are we the body of Christ? 

Yes!

Do we still sin?

Yes!

Then after your logic Christ was a SINNER!

Do we still get sick and diseased?

Yes!

Then Christ was in sickness and disease!

So we who are the body of Christ do not and cannot sin and can't get sicknesses and diseases! Period!!! right?! And if you do , well sorry, you are not saved!

 

That is the nonsense logic you can come up with. You have no idea what you are talking about but want to tell others what they have experienced and what not, what is scripture and what not, when you have no proof, neither in scripture let alone in experience. You assume and read something into scripture that is not there, so your basis is already off, that you measure and hang any other scripture on that you can find and project that error into everything else until everything you read gives you a false understanding.

 

Always the ones that never have even cast out a demon want to tell others, who are doing this for years on a regular basis that it can't work, because demons are not there, even when the person slithers on the ground, throwing up, violently shakes and has "someone else" looking out of their eyes and talking out of their mouth (which are about up to 80% - sometimes more - of people showing demonic manifestations in some way, in ANY meeting in pretty much ANY Christian denomination of Churches in ANY country!!!). You are preaching the doctrines of demons that Paul talks about and have rejected part of the gospel, while you are making yourself out to be as GOD, just sending 80% of Christian bothers and sisters to hell - since they are all not saved!

But why even keep arguing with you, since after your logic and judgment I am not even saved either, neither are thousands of my brothers and sisters in Christ that love Jesus and have been set free from bondage. Teachings like that what you profess keep many Christians sick, confused, tormented and in bondage. Your viewpoint is what's wrong with most churches nowadays and why the body of Christ is in the mess it is in.

 

I am done talking about this with you. I am not here to argue, I just wanted to answer the OP's question and help people to understand the truth behind this large part of the gospel ministry that has been neglected and /or totally ignored or rejected altogether by most churches, due to either fear of losing tithers , ignorance, false information or blatant rebellion against God to do what is commanded.

Edited September 16, 2014 by Warrior777

[Warrior777]

If anyone else still has a real question and is honestly seeking the truth behind this, feel free to post it or message me, I will do my best to answer. Thanks, God bless!