Jump to content
IGNORED

How does "Matthew 17:21" make sense for those who believe no C


Seeking1

Recommended Posts


  • Group:  Members
  • Followers:  1
  • Topic Count:  7
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  24
  • Content Per Day:  0.01
  • Reputation:   13
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  02/22/2014
  • Status:  Offline

There is a difference between being oppressed and possessed.  Anyone can be oppressed when satans demons try to cause harm and discouragement, hoping to turn people away from God.  Being possessed is a whole different story.  Demons cannot live in the same house (body) as the Spirit of God.  If they could, that would mean that they are as powerful, or more powerful, than God.  When we become His, He seals us with His Spirit.  Once sealed, nothing can get in. So the question from me to everyone is, who is more powerful, God or demons?

 

Ephesians 1:13-14

 

In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

 

 

Hi OneLight, I am actually in sympathy to your position, in spite of my OP question. However, I will now ask you the same question I have asked OakWood: "So you are therefore of the position that no truly born again Christian could EVER be influenced from the inside by a devil in the way that I described? Therefore, if such a person was claiming to be born again, you would definitely say no way? Just curious  :)"

 

Just as a reminder, of what I mean by "influenced," I also ask you the following for clarity: would you believe that the Lord would ever give a demon permission to enter into a born again Christian, even if only temporarily, in order to make blasphemous hand signals like the "666 Sign," "Hooked em horns (El Diablo)," etc. in order to deceive people or to flaunt their influence to those in the know? I have personally seen this happen, but I will not be naming names at this time. I have seen it being done by popular "Christian" leaders in online videos, like from YouTube. I just wanted to get the opinion of others on this. That's why I am asking you this question. 

 

The Bible makes an interesting statement in 2 Timothy 2:26:

 

"And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will." 

 

It seems only unbelievers could be "taken captive by Satan at his will," at least without God's permission. For a demon to be able to enter into somebody, even temporarily, in order to influence their hand movements seems to be an example of this passage in literal action. I do not believe most of these people doing these evil hand signs even know what is happening to them, that they are being influenced by a devil from the inside. I do not believe these demons inhabit most of these people all the time, but only temporarily as they are "needed" to deliver false teachings or to do other kinds of evil. I believe most of them do not have "familiar spirits" sticking around, but these demons instead go right into their bodies and right back out again. I do not believe God has given them permission to stay inside that person, even if unsaved, but only for a brief time.

 

For some of these people, I could see this as simply being a work of the flesh in ignorance, but I know God did NOT inspire them to do these hand signs for a fact, regardless. To me, they CANNOT be Spirit filled! Also, I have discovered devils really are behind many of these hand signs, though, in part by doing some research online about Satanic symbolism. It isn't a stretch to say that actual demons are behind at least some of the people making these signs in online videos. Assuming it is indeed demons behind the people making these hand signs, would you question that person's salvation? Again, could a born again Christian ever be influenced by a demon is this way? For those who say NO true Christian can ever have a demon, I would be interested to hear your response to this question, like a survey. Thanks!

Edited by Seeking1
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  22
  • Topic Count:  1,294
  • Topics Per Day:  0.21
  • Content Count:  31,762
  • Content Per Day:  5.26
  • Reputation:   9,760
  • Days Won:  115
  • Joined:  09/14/2007
  • Status:  Offline

There is a difference between being oppressed and possessed.  Anyone can be oppressed when satans demons try to cause harm and discouragement, hoping to turn people away from God.  Being possessed is a whole different story.  Demons cannot live in the same house (body) as the Spirit of God.  If they could, that would mean that they are as powerful, or more powerful, than God.  When we become His, He seals us with His Spirit.  Once sealed, nothing can get in. So the question from me to everyone is, who is more powerful, God or demons?

 

Ephesians 1:13-14

 

In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

 

Hi OneLight, I am actually in sympathy to your position, in spite of my OP question. However, I will now ask you the same question I have asked OakWood: "So you are therefore of the position that no truly born again Christian could EVER be influenced from the inside by a devil in the way that I described? Therefore, if such a person was claiming to be born again, you would definitely say no way? Just curious  :)"

Influenced on the inside would include thoughts of the mind and feelings, neither which are possession. Oppression causes both feelings and thoughts of the negative nature, which is not of God, but of the flesh or satan. To say that oppression does not influence how one thinks or feels would be untrue. WHat someone does with those feelings and thoughts is where He comes in. God never gives us more then we can stand with His help. The true question is do we accept His help during these times?

 

Just as a reminder, of what I mean by "influenced," I also ask you the following for clarity: would you believe that the Lord would ever give a demon permission to enter into a born again Christian, even if only temporarily, in order to make blasphemous hand signals like the "666 Sign," "Hooked em horns (El Diablo)," etc. in order to deceive people or to flaunt their influence to those in the know? I have personally seen this happen, but I will not be naming names at this time. I have seen it being done by popular "Christian" leaders in online videos, like from YouTube. I just wanted to get the opinion of others on this. That's why I am asking you this question.

We are sealed by the Holy Spirit and Jesus said He would never leave nor forsake us. Why would Jesus ever give one of His children over to Satan in order to advertise the enemies work? The answer is a blatant NO.

 

The Bible makes an interesting statement in 2 Timothy 2:26:

 

"And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will."

You only post one verse out of all the context. Why? Let's see how it look in context.

2 Timothy 2:14-26

 

Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers. Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ[c] depart from iniquity.”

But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work. Flee also youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife. And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

So, what is being discussed is false teaching, not uncontrolled or unwilling hand singles. You would do good to keep a verse in the context it was designed to be in and not try to make it =mean what it does not.

 

It seems only unbelievers could be "taken captive by Satan at his will," at least without God's permission. For a demon to be able to enter into somebody, even temporarily, in order to influence their hand movements seems to be an example of this passage in literal action. I do not believe most of these people doing these evil hand signs even know what is happening to them, that they are being influenced by a devil from the inside. I do not believe these demons inhabit most of these people all the time, but only temporarily as they are "needed" to deliver false teachings or to do other kinds of evil. I believe most of them do not have "familiar spirits" sticking around, but these demons instead go right into their bodies and right back out again. I do not believe God has given them permission to stay inside that person, even if unsaved, but only for a brief time.

 

For some of them, I could see this as simply being a work of the flesh in ignorance, but I know God did NOT inspire them to do these hand signs for a fact, regardless. To me, they CANNOT be Spirit filled! Also, I have discovered devils really are behind many of these hand signs, though, in part by doing some research online about Satanic symbolism. It isn't a stretch to say that actual demons are behind at least some of the people making these signs in online videos. Assuming it is indeed demons behind the people making these hand signs, would you question that person's salvation? Again, could a born again Christian ever be influenced by a demon is this way? For those who say NO true Christian can ever have a demon, I would be interested to hear your response to this question, like a survey. Thanks!

Who are "these people" you talk about? As I mentioned, God will not turn one of His children over to Satan. On the other hand, they may turn away from God and venture down the wrong path, opening them up to demonic activity, but as long as the Holy Spirit is in them, demons cannot enter.

As for people who throw satanic hand signs, they know what they are doing, and they worship their own god, whomever that god may be. They do not worship the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. They may not know the full consequences of their actions, but they understand they have a choice to do so or not. Demon possessed people in scripture do not live a normal life, nor do they profess Christ. The demons know who Jesus is, and they tremble at His name.

Keep in mind that the title some people use, Christian, has an empty meaning to them. To those who falsely clam to be Christians, we will know them by their fruit.

Luke 6:43-45

 

For a good tree does not bear bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. For every tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they gather grapes from a bramble bush. A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.

If a man speaks either good or bad from their heart, they would also use the rest of their body for good or evil. Don't be fooled by what you read on the internet. Search scripture for yourself.
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Members
  • Followers:  1
  • Topic Count:  7
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  24
  • Content Per Day:  0.01
  • Reputation:   13
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  02/22/2014
  • Status:  Offline

 

 

There is a difference between being oppressed and possessed.  Anyone can be oppressed when satans demons try to cause harm and discouragement, hoping to turn people away from God.  Being possessed is a whole different story.  Demons cannot live in the same house (body) as the Spirit of God.  If they could, that would mean that they are as powerful, or more powerful, than God.  When we become His, He seals us with His Spirit.  Once sealed, nothing can get in. So the question from me to everyone is, who is more powerful, God or demons?

 

Ephesians 1:13-14

 

In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

 

 

Hi OneLight, I am actually in sympathy to your position, in spite of my OP question. However, I will now ask you the same question I have asked OakWood: "So you are therefore of the position that no truly born again Christian could EVER be influenced from the inside by a devil in the way that I described? Therefore, if such a person was claiming to be born again, you would definitely say no way? Just curious  :)"

 

Influenced on the inside would include thoughts of the mind and feelings, neither which are possession. Oppression causes both feelings and thoughts of the negative nature, which is not of God, but of the flesh or satan. To say that oppression does not influence how one thinks or feels would be untrue. WHat someone does with those feelings and thoughts is where He comes in. God never gives us more then we can stand with His help. The true question is do we accept His help during these times?

 

Just as a reminder, of what I mean by "influenced," I also ask you the following for clarity: would you believe that the Lord would ever give a demon permission to enter into a born again Christian, even if only temporarily, in order to make blasphemous hand signals like the "666 Sign," "Hooked em horns (El Diablo)," etc. in order to deceive people or to flaunt their influence to those in the know? I have personally seen this happen, but I will not be naming names at this time. I have seen it being done by popular "Christian" leaders in online videos, like from YouTube. I just wanted to get the opinion of others on this. That's why I am asking you this question.

We are sealed by the Holy Spirit and Jesus said He would never leave nor forsake us. Why would Jesus ever give one of His children over to Satan in order to advertise the enemies work? The answer is a blatant NO.

 

The Bible makes an interesting statement in 2 Timothy 2:26:

 

"And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will."

You only post one verse out of all the context. Why? Let's see how it look in context.

2 Timothy 2:14-26

 

Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers. Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ[c] depart from iniquity.”

But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work. Flee also youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife. And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

So, what is being discussed is false teaching, not uncontrolled or unwilling hand singles. You would do good to keep a verse in the context it was designed to be in and not try to make it =mean what it does not.

 

It seems only unbelievers could be "taken captive by Satan at his will," at least without God's permission. For a demon to be able to enter into somebody, even temporarily, in order to influence their hand movements seems to be an example of this passage in literal action. I do not believe most of these people doing these evil hand signs even know what is happening to them, that they are being influenced by a devil from the inside. I do not believe these demons inhabit most of these people all the time, but only temporarily as they are "needed" to deliver false teachings or to do other kinds of evil. I believe most of them do not have "familiar spirits" sticking around, but these demons instead go right into their bodies and right back out again. I do not believe God has given them permission to stay inside that person, even if unsaved, but only for a brief time.

 

For some of them, I could see this as simply being a work of the flesh in ignorance, but I know God did NOT inspire them to do these hand signs for a fact, regardless. To me, they CANNOT be Spirit filled! Also, I have discovered devils really are behind many of these hand signs, though, in part by doing some research online about Satanic symbolism. It isn't a stretch to say that actual demons are behind at least some of the people making these signs in online videos. Assuming it is indeed demons behind the people making these hand signs, would you question that person's salvation? Again, could a born again Christian ever be influenced by a demon is this way? For those who say NO true Christian can ever have a demon, I would be interested to hear your response to this question, like a survey. Thanks!

Who are "these people" you talk about? As I mentioned, God will not turn one of His children over to Satan. On the other hand, they may turn away from God and venture down the wrong path, opening them up to demonic activity, but as long as the Holy Spirit is in them, demons cannot enter.

As for people who throw satanic hand signs, they know what they are doing, and they worship their own god, whomever that god may be. They do not worship the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. They may not know the full consequences of their actions, but they understand they have a choice to do so or not. Demon possessed people in scripture do not live a normal life, nor do they profess Christ. The demons know who Jesus is, and they tremble at His name.

Keep in mind that the title some people use, Christian, has an empty meaning to them. To those who falsely clam to be Christians, we will know them by their fruit.

Luke 6:43-45

 

For a good tree does not bear bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. For every tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they gather grapes from a bramble bush. A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.

If a man speaks either good or bad from their heart, they would also use the rest of their body for good or evil. Don't be fooled by what you read on the internet. Search scripture for yourself.

 

 

Thank you OneLight for your response. I appreciate your feedback. I am considering your words, and your position makes sense overall. I too would think that God would destroy these kinds of works of the devil within any true Christian indwelt by His Holy Spirit, though I admit I could be wrong, but I really don't think I am either.

 

I agree with your interpretation of 2 Timothy 2:14-26 being about false doctrine overall, but I still think my own idea about 2 Timothy 2:26 is onto something as well. I believe Biblical passages can have more than one application.

 

The Biblical passage in 1 John 4:1-6, to me, implies that God's children would overcome having devils influence them this way from the inside, additionally. I would think that Jesus's work on the cross and the presence of His Holy Spirit would be more than effective against allowing a demon to influence a true Christian bodily in the sense that I described. I believe this is what you implied earlier, when you asked whether Satan is stronger than God, and your interpretation makes good sense to me. 

 

However, in 2 Corinthians 12:7-10, I believe St. Paul did indeed "have" a demon (a messenger of Satan to buffet him as a thorn in the flesh), BUT it may have been making him physically sick from the OUTSIDE of his flesh, NOT controlling his bodily movements from WITHIN, which is what I would tend to believe the classical definition of "having a demon" would entail. I don't think the demon was actually inside the body of St. Paul as it would have been in truly possessed people in the Bible, which is why I put the word "have" above in quotes. 

 

Yet again, for anyone who may be reading this, please do not take my word as gospel or as a final authority! I am a woman, and I have NOT received any absolute answer from God about this, either. I could be wrong, or I could be right. These are just my own thoughts from personal experience and research. Please do your own research and ask God for guidance as well!

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Members
  • Followers:  0
  • Topic Count:  1
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  17
  • Content Per Day:  0.00
  • Reputation:   10
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  08/09/2014
  • Status:  Offline

Remember we are a three part being, body, soul and spirit. If we are born again the demon cannot influence out spirit, but if we stray our body and soul can be influenced and oppressed. Can we be possessed? I'm not really sure about this. It is a good discussion because there are so many variables. Is the person actually born again would be my first question.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Worthy Ministers
  • Followers:  29
  • Topic Count:  593
  • Topics Per Day:  0.08
  • Content Count:  55,868
  • Content Per Day:  7.55
  • Reputation:   27,622
  • Days Won:  271
  • Joined:  12/29/2003
  • Status:  Offline

Dr. Karl Payne has been dealing with demonic activity within Christians for many years....   According to him through his experience and I would have to agree,  if a Christian has any unrepentant sin in his/her life, or some sin that is repetitive, a demon can attach himself through that sin and have a great effect on the Christian in many other areas.    And until the sin is dealt with you simply can not deal with the demon for it has the legal right to be there so to speak.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

  • Group:  Members
  • Followers:  0
  • Topic Count:  1
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  38
  • Content Per Day:  0.01
  • Reputation:   21
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  09/09/2014
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  07/02/1961

YOu know what?  I've been a Christian a good many years and never even heard of a satanic hand signal.  I think people need to be more concerned with themselves and less concerned with others. Again, what kind of fruit is this minister bearing? Is he/she preaching the Word and Christ crucified and risen? Salvation? Really?  If you test the teaching and it is sound perhaps you should write the teacher a letter and let them know that you are concerned with the way they wave or greet people or gesture while preaching. Maybe they haven't heard of these "signals" either.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Members
  • Followers:  1
  • Topic Count:  1
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  51
  • Content Per Day:  0.01
  • Reputation:   19
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  08/31/2014
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  05/05/1969

Reading some of your comments after my post I wonder if anybody actually read my post :hmmm: ?! I explained several things that were asked here? Just did it briefly without quoting a lot of scripture to back it up, since there was not a lot of time, but if needed I can give scriptural refences to what I said. It's truth and proven with the Word and in the field by experiences.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Members
  • Followers:  1
  • Topic Count:  1
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  51
  • Content Per Day:  0.01
  • Reputation:   19
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  08/31/2014
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  05/05/1969

Again: Possession means that a demon has gotten a hold of someone and is "possessing" a part in that person, meaning it has been given the authority to take a hold of a part of the soul or body (for a believer). It cannot possess the spirit of a truly born again, saved person, since that spirit belongs to God but a Christian can be possessed in the other 2 parts of their being. Sin is one way a demon enters a person and the demon has the right (from GOD) to be in that person and to torment that person, until that right is revoked after true repentance and the demon evicted. God allows this to happen so a person will turn from that sin to come back to Him! 

 

1Cor 5:1-5

It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named[a] among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.[b]

 

This is talking about Christians in Paul's church, where he turns a saved person over to satan so that in time they might repent.

 

Matt 18:34-35

34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

This is Jesus himself speaking about the tormentors that God will give you over to for not forgiving.

Just a few examples...

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Members
  • Followers:  1
  • Topic Count:  1
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  51
  • Content Per Day:  0.01
  • Reputation:   19
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  08/31/2014
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  05/05/1969

Dr. Karl Payne has been dealing with demonic activity within Christians for many years....   According to him through his experience and I would have to agree,  if a Christian has any unrepentant sin in his/her life, or some sin that is repetitive, a demon can attach himself through that sin and have a great effect on the Christian in many other areas.    And until the sin is dealt with you simply can not deal with the demon for it has the legal right to be there so to speak.

 Correct!

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Members
  • Followers:  1
  • Topic Count:  1
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  51
  • Content Per Day:  0.01
  • Reputation:   19
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  08/31/2014
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  05/05/1969

Remember we are a three part being, body, soul and spirit. If we are born again the demon cannot influence out spirit, but if we stray our body and soul can be influenced and oppressed. Can we be possessed? I'm not really sure about this. It is a good discussion because there are so many variables. Is the person actually born again would be my first question.

The demons influence the body and soul through possession of parts of either in a saved person.

Edited by Warrior777
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...