Where is the Body of Christ in the Millennium?

[ARGOSY]

 

 

The 3.5 year war is against the saints, us believers. This period of persecution leading up to the second coming is clearly recorded in Rev 13, described as 42 months of the beast's control and with this, war against "God’s holy people".  Also in Rev 12, we have the protection of Israel (the woman), and the persecution of "her offspring" for 3.5 years.  This 3.5 year period of persecution precedes the second coming.

 

I agree that the false prophet wages war against the saints (elect, believers, church) for 42 months.  One thing that I've recently come to realize is that the great tribulation is only a subset of that period of time.  Let me explain.

 

The great tribulation starts just after the abomination of desolation comes about.  Jesus said that those days are cut short.

 

Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.  Matthew 24:22

 

How are those days cut short?  With the opening of the sixth seal.

 

“But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn..." Matthew 24:29-30a

 

This corresponds to the sixth seal:

 

I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”  Revelation 6:12-17

 

The sixth seal marks the end of the great tribulation.  The false prophet and those who worship him now have to deal with the wrath of the Lamb.  This is not to say that believers are out of the woods but rather that the persecution against them is greatly reduced.  The rest of the world is preoccupied with dealing with God's wrath as the seventh seal brings forth the seven trumpets / bowls.  Then at the seventh (last) trumpet the resurrection / rapture event takes place, on the last day:

 

and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.  Matthew 24:30b-31

 

Notice how in Matthew 24 that at first people see the sign of the Son of Man.  This corresponds to the sixth seal.  Then people actually see the Son of Man (not the sign of) which is the seventh trumpet.  There is a gap in the middle of Matthew 24:30 where the wrath of God is being poured out.  At least that's what makes the most sense to me at this point.

 

 

 

When Jesus describes the great tribulation in Matthew 24, it starts with the abomination, and ends with the second coming and the gathering of the elect. I do not see how its possible for this period to be cut short when it is repeatedly predicted to be 3.5 years long.  The original Greek word means: shorten, abridge, curtail.   The translators seem to like to use the word shorten, but what about the word "curtail"?    ie kept short, not cut short.  

 

That period is kept short to 3.5 years. No longer.  I see the 7 seals, the 7 trumpets and the 7 bowls as 3 separate visions leading up to the second coming.  The 6th seal is the second coming, the 7th trumpet is the second coming, and the 7th bowl is the second coming.   Only the judgment on the nations and the millenium follow the second coming, there is no "greatly reduced" persecution at this stage. The world as we know it has ended.

 

So there is simply 3.5 years of persecution, then the second coming.

Rev 12:17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

 

Rev 13 5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. 6 It opened its mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. 7 It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them

 

Daniel 7:25 He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time

[Persuaded]

E, your point 4 ignores the clear meaning of Dan 12, to substitute the timing from Rev.

-when were names written in the book? -before the foundation of the world.

-does any saved group have to wait until post-mil to find out if their names are in the book?

-clearly God knows those names, and Dan 12 refers to this: "and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book." Doesn't say the book is opened, just like it isn't opened for you. The "at that time" phrase here is clearly trib timing, and saying otherwise based on some loose assumptions as to how this fits in somewhere else does real harm to your understanding.

Doctrinally, it's important to understand that the only path to heaven has always been, will always be by grace through faith. The OT saints are no different. Don't rewrite doctrine to fit an eschatology scheme!

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.

Paul is saying here, and throughout this passage, that the purpose of the law was to expose their inadequacy to keep it, and thus the need for a redeemer. OT saints were required to have faith in anticipation of the Messiah; we get the benefit of believing in the fact of the Messiah.

[Last Daze]

 

 

 

The 3.5 year war is against the saints, us believers. This period of persecution leading up to the second coming is clearly recorded in Rev 13, described as 42 months of the beast's control and with this, war against "God’s holy people".  Also in Rev 12, we have the protection of Israel (the woman), and the persecution of "her offspring" for 3.5 years.  This 3.5 year period of persecution precedes the second coming.

 

I agree that the false prophet wages war against the saints (elect, believers, church) for 42 months.  One thing that I've recently come to realize is that the great tribulation is only a subset of that period of time.  Let me explain.

 

The great tribulation starts just after the abomination of desolation comes about.  Jesus said that those days are cut short.

 

Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.  Matthew 24:22

 

How are those days cut short?  With the opening of the sixth seal.

 

“But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn..." Matthew 24:29-30a

 

This corresponds to the sixth seal:

 

I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”  Revelation 6:12-17

 

The sixth seal marks the end of the great tribulation.  The false prophet and those who worship him now have to deal with the wrath of the Lamb.  This is not to say that believers are out of the woods but rather that the persecution against them is greatly reduced.  The rest of the world is preoccupied with dealing with God's wrath as the seventh seal brings forth the seven trumpets / bowls.  Then at the seventh (last) trumpet the resurrection / rapture event takes place, on the last day:

 

and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.  Matthew 24:30b-31

 

Notice how in Matthew 24 that at first people see the sign of the Son of Man.  This corresponds to the sixth seal.  Then people actually see the Son of Man (not the sign of) which is the seventh trumpet.  There is a gap in the middle of Matthew 24:30 where the wrath of God is being poured out.  At least that's what makes the most sense to me at this point.

 

 

 

When Jesus describes the great tribulation in Matthew 24, it starts with the abomination, and ends with the second coming and the gathering of the elect. I do not see how its possible for this period to be cut short when it is repeatedly predicted to be 3.5 years long.  The original Greek word means: shorten, abridge, curtail.   The translators seem to like to use the word shorten, but what about the word "curtail"?    ie kept short, not cut short.  

 

That period is kept short to 3.5 years. No longer.  I see the 7 seals, the 7 trumpets and the 7 bowls as 3 separate visions leading up to the second coming.  The 6th seal is the second coming, the 7th trumpet is the second coming, and the 7th bowl is the second coming.   Only the judgment on the nations and the millenium follow the second coming, there is no "greatly reduced" persecution at this stage. The world as we know it has ended.

 

So there is simply 3.5 years of persecution, then the second coming.

Rev 12:17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

 

Rev 13 5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. 6 It opened its mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. 7 It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them

 

Daniel 7:25 He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time

 

 

I probably didn't explain what I meant very well but I think you misunderstood what I was getting at.

 

Don't you think the effects of the plagues on the false prophet and his kingdom are going to dampen the intensity of the persecution of the saints?  Have you read the trumpets and bowls lately?  Pretty stifling stuff there.

 

I'm not saying that the 3.5 years are cut short, just the days of great tribulation.  I think where we differ is the 6th seal.  I see it as the precursor to God's wrath, where people see the sign of the Son of Man, not the Son of Man Himself, and they fear for the wrath to come.

 

I agree that the seventh (last) trumpet and the seventh bowl are the second coming, where people actually see the Son of Man (not the sign of).  This distinction is in Matthew 24:30  I'm curious as to why you think the 6th seal is the second coming?

[Last Daze]

Everybody is/will be subject either to the first resurrection or the second death.

 

 

I think that's pretty straightforward.  Resurrection order:

 

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.  1 Corinthians 15:22-24  ("cometh" greyed out for clarity)

 

When is the resurrection at Christ's coming?

 

Martha *said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.” John 11:24

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.  John 6:44

 

When is the last day?

 

Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.  1 Corinthians 15:51-52

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.  1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

 

This is the first resurrection, on the last day, at the last trumpet, at Christ's second coming.  No tap dancing required.

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

=================================================================================================

 

No, friend, my entire argument does not `hinge` on this. 

 

 

 

Yes it does.  All you have given is an "erroneous" Assessment...."It's a Metaphor" which I clearly defined and illustrated that it was not.  Then an Unsupported Assertion (Fallacy).... "This passage again is not doctrinal".

 

(Ephesians 5:31-32) "For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.  {32} This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church."

 

This falls under "Clear as Day" description of Christ and The Church and a DIRECT Conclusion from the Antecedent, Verse 31.

 

 

Concerning the Ephesians verses (5: 25 - 30) why does Paul wait until the 5th chapter if he is going to bring out this startling & important  revelation that the church is the Bride?

 

 

So let me get this straight, Your Proof for "that it's not Doctrinal".... is a question of "Why" did Paul wait until the 5th Chapter to write it?    x10 ^{00000000000000----->}

 

It's Non-Sequitur (Fallacy) on Steroids, love.  Answer, I don't know maybe the same reason Moses waited until Exodus 20 instead of Exodus 5 to Elucidate the 10 Commandments.

 

 

He does not say that the church is the Bride.   There is not one thing in clear statement about the church being the Bride.

 

 

Except for (Ephesians 5:31-32).

 

This is Quibbling (Fallacy) and word games, Plain and Simple.

 

(Ephesians 5:31-32) "For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.  {32} This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church."

 

"The Church" is HIS Wife.  To be HIS Wife....She Must first, Absolutely Unequivocally....be HIS Bride.     

 

 

Masculine! - because the Head is masculine. If the Head is masculine, the members of His Body are masculine.

 

 

Say what?  

 

(Ephesians 2:11-17) "Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;  {12} That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:  {13} But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.  {14} For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;  {15} Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;  {16} And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:  {17} And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh."

 

 

We are One Body in the Body of Christ.  Just like the Husband and Wife...."and they two shall be one flesh"...we are not Christ, however.  And these passages do make make Null and Void (and especially coming after Eph Chapter 2 to make clear the entire point)....

 

(Ephesians 5:31-32) "For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.  {32} This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church." 

 

 

There is No Way to Obfuscate these 2 passages.  "great mystery" being revealed alone, Qualifies it as Doctrine.   Just like this one...

 

(Romans 11:25) "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

 

 

I'll be in and out over the weekend.

[Enoch2021]

E, your point 4 ignores the clear meaning of Dan 12, to substitute the timing from Rev.

-when were names written in the book? -before the foundation of the world.

-does any saved group have to wait until post-mil to find out if their names are in the book?

-clearly God knows those names, and Dan 12 refers to this: "and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book." Doesn't say the book is opened, just like it isn't opened for you. The "at that time" phrase here is clearly trib timing, and saying otherwise based on some loose assumptions as to how this fits in somewhere else does real harm to your understanding.

Doctrinally, it's important to understand that the only path to heaven has always been, will always be by grace through faith. The OT saints are no different. Don't rewrite doctrine to fit an eschatology scheme!

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.

Paul is saying here, and throughout this passage, that the purpose of the law was to expose their inadequacy to keep it, and thus the need for a redeemer. OT saints were required to have faith in anticipation of the Messiah; we get the benefit of believing in the fact of the Messiah.

 

 

==========================================================================================

 

 

your point 4 ignores the clear meaning of Dan 12, to substitute the timing from Rev.

 

 

It doesn't ignore anything.  * Do me a Favor, when you're making a counterpoint to a specific point....post it, instead of saying "point 4". Thanks.

 

"Point 4": 

 

4. And this is quite interesting...."at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book."     When does this event occur? When is the Book opened?.....

 

(Revelation 20:11-12) "And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.  {12} And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

Daniel 12:1 is clearly saying that the OT Saints won't be Resurrected Until the Great White Throne.  Makes sense, to be judged on their works....why?  Well the OT Saints are not apart of the New Testament Dispensation.... they are under a Different Covenant.

"Judged....according to their works"----is the polar opposite of Christian Doctrine.  Personally, and I can say this Unequivocally----I can't make it, I'm Doomed in this scenario....NO HOPE!!

Praise The LORD it's not the Case!!  It's the Whole Point 

 

And here's your counterpoints...

 

1.  -when were names written in the book? -before the foundation of the world.

2.  -does any saved group have to wait until post-mil to find out if their names are in the book?

3.  -clearly God knows those names, and Dan 12 refers to this: "and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book." Doesn't say the book is opened, just like it isn't opened for you. The "at that time" phrase here is clearly trib timing, and saying otherwise based on some loose assumptions as to how this fits in somewhere else does real harm to your understanding.

 

1.  So?  This is irrelevant.

 

2.  Clearly the OT Saints as I Illustrated via Daniel 12:1-2 in Relation to Revelation as outlined below.

 

3.  "Doesn't say the book is opened".  No, it doesn't in Daniel...it says it in Revelation:

 

(Revelation 20:11-12) "And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.  {12} And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

 

 

When is the "Book of Life" Opened?

 

Are Christians Judged according to their Works?

 

 

Doctrinally, it's important to understand that the only path to heaven has always been, will always be by grace through faith. The OT saints are no different.

 

 

Faith in What?

 

How could the OT Saints have Faith in the Resurrection of Jesus Christ when they DIED before Jesus was Born?

 

The Old "Testament" and The New "Testament".  Testament = "Covenant".  The OT Saints are under a Different "Covenant".

 

 

Don't rewrite doctrine to fit an eschatology scheme!

 

 

I'm not.  I'm following this admonishment .... 

 

(2 Timothy 2:15) "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

 

Much the same way as is outlined here....

 

(Romans 11:25) "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

 

 

This passage brings up yet another Subdivision.  This Implies that there is a distinction between New Testament Jews that have Rejected Christ and OT Jews.  How?  Well the OT Jews were DEAD, so they quite obviously could't reject something that they never seen.

 

So we have: 

 

NT Jews that have rejected Christ.

 

OT Jews.

 

Born Again Jews = Part of "The Church".

 

 

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.

 

Paul is saying here, and throughout this passage, that the purpose of the law was to expose their inadequacy to keep it, and thus the need for a redeemer. OT saints were required to have faith in anticipation of the Messiah; we get the benefit of believing in the fact of the Messiah.

 

 

This is pretty convoluted with some TRUTH..... "that the purpose of the law was to expose their inadequacy".  Yep, In fact...it was to make sin INCREASE.

 

"OT saints were required to have faith in anticipation of the Messiah".   Paul says no such thing.  "Faith in Anticipation" ....say again, over?

 

 

"The Jews" (Corporately) and "The Church" are very different.  Both have Different Origins and Different Destinies.  This is quite Obvious throughout Scripture.  

 

I am not in the "Replacement" Camp.  GOD will fulfill every Last Promise HE Made to the Jews....but they are not the same promises, that are made to "The Church". 

[Marilyn C]

Hi Enoch2021,

 

Your `doctrine` of the Church being the Bride of Christ -

 

1. Is not based on a body of teaching.

 

2. Is not in line with the rest of scripture -

 

 a) Paul`s teaching / doctrine on the `Christ as Head ...of the Church which is His Body.` (Eph. 1: 23) And the many chapters on the details of this Body in 1 Corinthians  12, 13 & 14 & Col. 2 `holding fast to the Head...` etc etc

 

 b) Old Testament doctrine on Israel being the wife / bride. 

 

 

So `up close & personal` here Enoch, my dear friend, is this what you are telling me is your `doctrine,`-

 

`that you, Enoch, a male, is now a female, a wife, a bride that is going to marry Jesus?`

 

 

I am nearly speechless, Marilyn.

[Persuaded]

E,

Your post is all over the place, so I won't quote it.

 

It must be understood is that no one, not anybody, that is judged by their works, will escape damnation. This is not the bema seat where rewards are handed out- it's the judgment throne, where sentence is given for failure to accept Christ's redemption.

 

There's nothing confusing about the timing of Dan 12:1 for me to explain to help you understand that it is the trib. Sheesh, Jesus even quotes the verse in Mat 24 to describe the trib. There's no room in 12:1 to go looking for other verses to re-interpret it.

 

"Faith in What", you ask.

Well Paul tells us the gospel was preached before to Abraham.

Gen 3:15 gives the first presentation of the gospel.

The gospel is thoroughly presented by the time you get to Malachi.

Hebrews 11 lists a pretty long list of OT folks whose faith saved them.

Rom 4 shows that the Law saved no one. A snippet, but the whole chapter is worth reading:

 

[Rom 4:13-15 NKJV] For the promise that he would be the heir of the world [was] not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
For if those who are of the law [are] heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect,
because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law [there is] no transgression.

 

The names of church Christians are in the book of life. Yet we don't have to wait until the end of the mil to be resurrected.

 

In the exact same way, other groups (OT saints, trib converts) whose names are in the book of life will be resurrected based upon the Lamb's knowledge of the list.

 

Where is Moses now? Mat 17 shows that he isn't in the ground waiting for the GWT.

 

I'm not sure why you're going  on about the replacement stuff- I haven't said anything to suggest it. I think Israel will get a big enough bellyful of trouble from the trib, and don't see her role there as somehow also requiring her to wait until after the mil to be put to a test that no one can pass.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Last Daze,

 

Thank you for your kind comments further back -

` I haven't seen anything in Marilyn's posts that would lead me to believe that her understandings come from a malicious intent. Have you?`

 

 

Blessings, bro. Marilyn.

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

 

===============================================================================

 

 

Your post is all over the place, so I won't quote it.

 

 

Unsupported Assertion (Fallacy).  For Instance....?

 

 

It must be understood is that no one, not anybody, that is judged by their works, will escape damnation.

 

 

Then why is the Book of Life Opened?

 

And that's not what this says...

 

(Daniel 12:1-2) "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.  {2} And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

 

"Some to everlasting life".

 

Juxtaposed with....

 

"Some to shame and everlasting contempt".

 

What is Particularly Confusing about these passages?

 

 

There's nothing confusing about the timing of Dan 12:1 for me to explain to help you understand that it is the trib. Sheesh

 

 

Sheesh, eh?  

 

 

Jesus even quotes the verse in Mat 24 to describe the trib.

 

 

That's astonishing!!  It's not the "trib"....it's the "Great Tribulation".

 

 

"Faith in What", you ask.

 

Well Paul tells us the gospel was preached before to Abraham.

 

 

And.....?  Where is it?

 

Define "The Gospel".....?

 

 

Gen 3:15 gives the first presentation of the gospel.

The gospel is thoroughly presented by the time you get to Malachi.

 

 

Really?

 

(Genesis 3:15) "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

 

This is the Gospel? Let's compare and contrast when you respond to the query above: Define the Gospel....?

 

 

Hebrews 11 lists a pretty long list of OT folks whose faith saved them.

 

 

Show where it says "Faith" in Christ's Redemptive Work (or something to that affect)......?

 

 

[Rom 4:13-15 NKJV] For the promise that he would be the heir of the world [was] not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if those who are of the law [are] heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect,because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law [there is] no transgression.

 

 

Slightly Off Topic but very Germane to the discussion.  I suggest you check the source of The NKJV...It's Corrupt.  SEE Here:

 

 

 

In the exact same way, other groups (OT saints, trib converts) whose names are in the book of life will be resurrected based upon the Lamb's knowledge of the list.

 

 

Scripture Support....?  

 

When, for the OT Saints?  When, for the "trib" converts...?

 

Well GOD knows everything so that's not an answer.  When is the Book of Life Opened....?

 

 

Where is Moses now?

 

 

Don't know exactly.  Clearly Moses and Elijah were sequestered circa the transfiguration and also will be in the "Great Tribulation".  Can you tell me where is:  Daniel, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Nehemiah, Jeremiah, Job, et al......?

 

We know where Abraham is...

 

(Luke 16:19-26) "There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:  {20}  And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,  {21}  And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.  {22}  And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;  {23}  And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.  {24}  And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.  {25}  But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.  {26}  And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence."

 

This is not a Parable or an Allegory.  Note the Proper Names.  This is quite LITERAL.

 

 

I'm not sure why you're going  on about the replacement stuff

 

 

I wanted to explain myself so if anyone were reading they would have a clear understanding of my position.  When I discussed this issue in the past on these threads the "Replacement Theology" invariably came up.  You may disregard.

 

 

I think Israel will get a big enough bellyful of trouble from the trib, and don't see her role there as somehow also requiring her to wait until after the mil to be put to a test that no one can pass.

 

 

Strawman (Fallacy)----- I never said Israel will have to wait until the Millennium.  I said "OT Saints" do....Big Difference! 

 

And I've already explained this to you in my last post, did you read it?  ....here:

 

(Romans 11:25) "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

This passage brings up yet another Subdivision.  This Implies that there is a distinction between New Testament Jews that have Rejected Christ and OT Jews.  How?  Well the OT Jews were DEAD, so they quite obviously could't reject something that they never seen.

So we have:

NT Jews that have rejected Christ.

OT Jews.

Born Again Jews = Part of "The Church".

 

 

 

Additionally, you failed to address these questions which are VERY pertinent to the Case...

 

When is the "Book of Life" Opened?

Are Christians Judged according to their Works?

 

How could the OT Saints have Faith in the Resurrection of Jesus Christ when they DIED before Jesus was Born?