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Israel (Jews) and Our Views


GoldenEagle

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I guess I am referring to what is known as supercessionism or the more common term, "Replacement Theology" which is the view that God has replaced biblical Israel with the Church and that the blessings of Israel's restoration spoken of by the prophets are really speaking to the blessings of the Church age.

 

 

 

Understand about God's first Promise to Abraham by Faith, and what all that contained (God's Birthright promises), and it all applies to God's Israel, the whole Church of God which of course includes both believing Israel and believing Gentiles.

 

This is why Apostle Paul mentioned God's covenants and promises to Israel when speaking to believing Gentiles in Eph.2 about becoming part of the "commonwealth of Israel".

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I might be butting in where I am not wanted -but hey ho! 

 

 

 

I think before such a question can be answered you need to define what you mean by Israel - off the top of my head I can think of at least 4 different ways the Bible uses that term, to which are you referring, a single person, a land, a physical nation or a spiritual nation. It would also be helpful if you carefully define what you mean by church - my understanding of that term is 'all those who God has gathered out of the world in very age to be a people unto himself' but I suspect yours is different to mine :D

 

I know that I for one could never hope to answer your question without establishing clear definitions first because the risk of talking across each other is just too great as our meanings become lost upon the other person because of our own personal theological frameworks.  

 

 

I am butting in also.

 

You have 4 different so called definitions of Israel.

1. Jacob was renamed Israel, and the children of Jacob are called the children of Israel, or Israel as a short hand term

2. a land.   That is a modern view but is not biblical. In the bible, a nation comes from the Hebrew word 'goy'. It refers to a people group of a common ancestor. Certain land belonged to certain people groups. Egypt was a people group who owned the land called 'the land of Egypt'. Why the land of Egypt. It was an area of land which belonged to a people group called Egyptians, so it was the 'land of Egypt'. The land was never called Egypt, but is called the land of Egypt. Likewise, Israel is a people group made up of the children of Israel/Jacob, who were given a land. That land is referred to as the 'land of Israel'. Never just Israel, but the land of Israel. 

3. A nation. That is correct and has already been explained. A nation is a people group, not a country. The sons of Jacob are starting point of the children of Israel, and in biblical terms is a nation.

4. Israel is not a spiritual nation, ever, in scripture. Today, Israel is made up of people; some who are saved and most who are not saved. There is reference in scripture to a foolish nation, made up of people from diverse nations. The foolish nation is to make Israel jealous. The foolish nation is the church.     

 

 

Both believing Israelites and believing Gentiles inherit God's promises together as one Body. That's what Christ and His Apostles taught.

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The NT never refers to the Church as "Israel."  The word name "Israel" is used 71 times in the NT and in each case it is refers to the descendents of Jacab.  It is always an ethnic word and it is never spiritualized to refer to the Church or Gentile Christians.

 

then you have a major hill to overcome, because Apostle Paul applied that term "commonwealth of Israel" to Gentile believers on Christ Jesus. And in Gal.3 he applied what Abraham believed by Faith also to believing Gentiles.

 

How can one born of Israel that believes on Jesus Christ The New Covenant NOT... be a part of Christ's Church anyway? Some here just aren't making any sense.

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Guest shiloh357

 

The NT never refers to the Church as "Israel."  The word name "Israel" is used 71 times in the NT and in each case it is refers to the descendents of Jacab.  It is always an ethnic word and it is never spiritualized to refer to the Church or Gentile Christians.

 

then you have a major hill to overcome, because Apostle Paul applied that term "commonwealth of Israel" to Gentile believers on Christ Jesus. And in Gal.3 he applied what Abraham believed by Faith also to believing Gentiles.

 

How can one born of Israel that believes on Jesus Christ The New Covenant NOT... be a part of Christ's Church anyway? Some here just aren't making any sense.

 

Commonwealth of Israel doesn't mean that all members of the commonwealth are Israelites.   Canada and Australia are commonwealths of Britain, but they are not Britsh.  They share a special relationship with the Crown, but they are not British citizens.

 

Gentiles share with Israel the promises of God, but they are not Israelites.   Even in Paul's olive tree metaphor, the grafted in "wild" branches, remain wild branches.  They do not become a cultivated or natural branch of the olive tree.

 

The Church is not Israel, is not called Israel anywhere in the NT.   Romans 9, 10, and 11 are the kiss of death to Replacement Theology.

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I might be butting in where I am not wanted -but hey ho! 

 

 

 

I think before such a question can be answered you need to define what you mean by Israel - off the top of my head I can think of at least 4 different ways the Bible uses that term, to which are you referring, a single person, a land, a physical nation or a spiritual nation. It would also be helpful if you carefully define what you mean by church - my understanding of that term is 'all those who God has gathered out of the world in very age to be a people unto himself' but I suspect yours is different to mine :D

 

I know that I for one could never hope to answer your question without establishing clear definitions first because the risk of talking across each other is just too great as our meanings become lost upon the other person because of our own personal theological frameworks.  

 

 

I am butting in also.

 

You have 4 different so called definitions of Israel.

1. Jacob was renamed Israel, and the children of Jacob are called the children of Israel, or Israel as a short hand term

2. a land.   That is a modern view but is not biblical. In the bible, a nation comes from the Hebrew word 'goy'. It refers to a people group of a common ancestor. Certain land belonged to certain people groups. Egypt was a people group who owned the land called 'the land of Egypt'. Why the land of Egypt. It was an area of land which belonged to a people group called Egyptians, so it was the 'land of Egypt'. The land was never called Egypt, but is called the land of Egypt. Likewise, Israel is a people group made up of the children of Israel/Jacob, who were given a land. That land is referred to as the 'land of Israel'. Never just Israel, but the land of Israel. 

3. A nation. That is correct and has already been explained. A nation is a people group, not a country. The sons of Jacob are starting point of the children of Israel, and in biblical terms is a nation.

4. Israel is not a spiritual nation, ever, in scripture. Today, Israel is made up of people; some who are saved and most who are not saved. There is reference in scripture to a foolish nation, made up of people from diverse nations. The foolish nation is to make Israel jealous. The foolish nation is the church.     

 

 

Both believing Israelites and believing Gentiles inherit God's promises together as one Body. That's what Christ and His Apostles taught.

 

Yes, Israelites and Gentiles inherit God's promise of the Messiah and become one Body. But notice that it is Israelites and Gentiles. Scripture never calls or says that believing Gentiles become Israelites/Israel. The One Body is a new thing, made of believers, and is not Israel. In the NT, Israel is made up of some believers and mostly unbelievers, so Israel is not the body of Christ. And the body of Christ is not Israel.   

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The NT never refers to the Church as "Israel."  The word name "Israel" is used 71 times in the NT and in each case it is refers to the descendents of Jacab.  It is always an ethnic word and it is never spiritualized to refer to the Church or Gentile Christians.

 

then you have a major hill to overcome, because Apostle Paul applied that term "commonwealth of Israel" to Gentile believers on Christ Jesus. And in Gal.3 he applied what Abraham believed by Faith also to believing Gentiles.

 

How can one born of Israel that believes on Jesus Christ The New Covenant NOT... be a part of Christ's Church anyway? Some here just aren't making any sense.

 

Commonwealth of Israel doesn't mean that all members of the commonwealth are Israelites.   Canada and Australia are commonwealths of Britain, but they are not Britsh.  They share a special relationship with the Crown, but they are not British citizens.

 

Gentiles share with Israel the promises of God, but they are not Israelites.   Even in Paul's olive tree metaphor, the grafted in "wild" branches, remain wild branches.  They do not become a cultivated or natural branch of the olive tree.

 

The Church is not Israel, is not called Israel anywhere in the NT.   Romans 9, 10, and 11 are the kiss of death to Replacement Theology.

 

 

Did I mention Canada, Britain, or Australia in my above posts? No, I did not.

 

What I did mention was ALL BELIEVERS on Christ Jesus, whether Israelite or Gentile.

 

You're just trying to bring in a bunch of doctrines of men to try and cloud what Apostle Paul said to Gentiles becoming part of the "commonwealth of Israel", inheriting God's promises through Faith on Jesus Christ, which IS... definitely about Christ's Church.

 

And you missed... that Eph2. example of the use of the word "Israel" that you tried to say no where in the NT does that kind of idea appear. Sorry, it's too late. Apostle Paul already said it, and it is written for all... Gentile believers on Christ to see!

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Yes, Israelites and Gentiles inherit God's promise of the Messiah and become one Body. But notice that it is Israelites and Gentiles. Scripture never calls or says that believing Gentiles become Israelites/Israel. The One Body is a new thing, made of believers, and is not Israel. In the NT, Israel is made up of some believers and mostly unbelievers, so Israel is not the body of Christ. And the body of Christ is not Israel.   

 

 

 

Since when... was that idea of Gentiles becoming the seed of Israel ever a subject in that early section of posts? Just because shiloh wants to try and bring that false idea in doesn't mean we have to agree to it.

 

Moreover, per Apostle Paul in Rom.11, unbelieving Israelites are 'cut off' from The Root because of their unbelief, and can ONLY be graffed back in if they do not remain in unbelief. And God sent The New Covenant to the seed of Israel first, and a remnant of the seed did believe (like Christ's Apostles and disciples, including Paul, and all Israelites that come to Christ thereafter).

 

So how can that NOT... be about Israel?

 

The idea of a separation between Israel and Christ's Church is a made up doctrine of men, nothing more. It's the UNBELIEVING Israelites today that WANT to be apart from The New Covenant Jesus Christ by their OWN choice. If... they do not turn to Christ Jesus when He comes, but remain in that unbelief, then they will... be cut off, forever.

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Guest shiloh357

 

 

 

The NT never refers to the Church as "Israel."  The word name "Israel" is used 71 times in the NT and in each case it is refers to the descendents of Jacab.  It is always an ethnic word and it is never spiritualized to refer to the Church or Gentile Christians.

 

then you have a major hill to overcome, because Apostle Paul applied that term "commonwealth of Israel" to Gentile believers on Christ Jesus. And in Gal.3 he applied what Abraham believed by Faith also to believing Gentiles.

 

How can one born of Israel that believes on Jesus Christ The New Covenant NOT... be a part of Christ's Church anyway? Some here just aren't making any sense.

 

Commonwealth of Israel doesn't mean that all members of the commonwealth are Israelites.   Canada and Australia are commonwealths of Britain, but they are not Britsh.  They share a special relationship with the Crown, but they are not British citizens.

 

Gentiles share with Israel the promises of God, but they are not Israelites.   Even in Paul's olive tree metaphor, the grafted in "wild" branches, remain wild branches.  They do not become a cultivated or natural branch of the olive tree.

 

The Church is not Israel, is not called Israel anywhere in the NT.   Romans 9, 10, and 11 are the kiss of death to Replacement Theology.

 

 

Did I mention Canada, Britain, or Australia in my above posts? No, I did not.

 

You mentioned the term commonwealth and I was simply using examples of commonwealths to illustrate the point that being the commonwealth of a nation doesn't mean you are a citizen of that nation.   Being part of a commonwealth of Israel doesn't make you an Israelite.

What I did mention was ALL BELIEVERS on Christ Jesus, whether Israelite or Gentile.

 

You're just trying to bring in a bunch of doctrines of men to try and cloud what Apostle Paul said to Gentiles becoming part of the "commonwealth of Israel", inheriting God's promises through Faith on Jesus Christ, which IS... definitely about Christ's Church.

 

No, it is your view, that the Church is Israel that is a doctrine of man.  It is a doctine that has been the root of anti-Semitism and Christian persecution of the Jews for centuries.  I simply believe the Bible on this matter.

 

 

And you missed... that Eph2. example of the use of the word "Israel" that you tried to say no where in the NT does that kind of idea appear. Sorry, it's too late. Apostle Paul already said it, and it is written for all... Gentile believers on Christ to see!

 

I didn't miss anything.  I am simply better at exegesis than you are.  The use of Israel doesn't include Gentiles.  He is speaking to Gentiles about their inclusion as beneficiaries of the covenants of promise.  He is not claiming that they are Israelites.  You are allowing your theology to drive your interpretation, rather than using sound interpretive principles.

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Is Jesus not the root of the olive tree Israel and Israelites the branches and as Romans11 says because some branches were broken off it allowed born again Christians to be grafted in. We are warned not to think of ourselves as the true branches of the tree. We will never replace Israel in God the Father's eyes.

I so agree. I was thinking of Jesus saying "I am the vine and you are the branches. Apart from Me you can do nothing". Two different plants. In Romans He is the Olive Tree. He is also call the Root of Jesse and the Root and offspring of David. We are grafted in but the Jews will also be grafted back into their natural tree.

Rom. 11:31-32 Even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

Perhaps the pride to which you referred is the underlying sin of replacement theology?

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Guest shiloh357

 

Is Jesus not the root of the olive tree Israel and Israelites the branches and as Romans11 says because some branches were broken off it allowed born again Christians to be grafted in. We are warned not to think of ourselves as the true branches of the tree. We will never replace Israel in God the Father's eyes.

I so agree. I was thinking of Jesus saying "I am the vine and you are the branches. Apart from Me you can do nothing". Two different plants. In Romans He is the Olive Tree. He is also call the Root of Jesse and the Root and offspring of David. We are grafted in but the Jews will also be grafted back into their natural tree.

Rom. 11:31-32 Even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

Perhaps the pride to which you referred is the underlying sin of replacement theology?

 

Yes it is exactly pride that is in play in Replacement Theology.

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