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Israel (Jews) and Our Views


GoldenEagle

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Yes, Israelites and Gentiles inherit God's promise of the Messiah and become one Body. But notice that it is Israelites and Gentiles. Scripture never calls or says that believing Gentiles become Israelites/Israel. The One Body is a new thing, made of believers, and is not Israel. In the NT, Israel is made up of some believers and mostly unbelievers, so Israel is not the body of Christ. And the body of Christ is not Israel.   

 

 

 

Since when... was that idea of Gentiles becoming the seed of Israel ever a subject in that early section of posts? Just because shiloh wants to try and bring that false idea in doesn't mean we have to agree to it.

 

Moreover, per Apostle Paul in Rom.11, unbelieving Israelites are 'cut off' from The Root because of their unbelief, and can ONLY be graffed back in if they do not remain in unbelief. And God sent The New Covenant to the seed of Israel first, and a remnant of the seed did believe (like Christ's Apostles and disciples, including Paul, and all Israelites that come to Christ thereafter).

 

So how can that NOT... be about Israel?

 

The idea of a separation between Israel and Christ's Church is a made up doctrine of men, nothing more. It's the UNBELIEVING Israelites today that WANT to be apart from The New Covenant Jesus Christ by their OWN choice. If... they do not turn to Christ Jesus when He comes, but remain in that unbelief, then they will... be cut off, forever.

 

 

You are missing all of the prophetic verses in the OT which state that the Gentiles will come to the Messiah. There are no verses in the OT or the NT that Gentiles will become Israel by coming to the Messiah. That was the very basis of the debate as to whether Gentiles who believed in Jesus needed to be circumcised and become members of Israel. The Apostles used the OT prophetic scriptures to show Gentiles would come to the Messiah, remaining Gentiles and not become Israel. The mystery of the One New Man is a union of believing Jews and believing Gentiles forming the Church. The church is not Israel and Israel is not the church.

 

The idea that the church is now Israel is a man made doctrine made by Gentiles who were jealous of Israel. That doctrine was born out of anti-semitism.     

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Guest shiloh357

I would like to know where, in the Bible, is it written that the OT are included as part of the Church.

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Zechariah 8:23

 

As yet unfulfilled. Those who think that God has finished with the Jews are calling God a liar. God loves the Jews.

 

As for Zech 8:23 anyone can just throw out a scripture....

 

Zech 8:23 is as yet unfulfilled scripture. No straw man here! Tell me at any point in history where this has happened before.

 

I never said that you were using a straw man in regards to you employment of Zech 8:23 I said that these words are a straw man.

 

Those who think that God has finished with the Jews are calling God a liar. God loves the Jews.

 

Zechariah 8:20 "Thus says the LORD of hosts:`Peoples shall yet come, Inhabitants of many cities; 21 The inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, "Let us continue to go and pray before the LORD, And seek the LORD of hosts. I myself will go also." 22 Yes, many peoples and strong nations Shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem, And to pray before the LORD.' 23 "Thus says the LORD of hosts:`In those days ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man, saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you."'" 
 
....the prophecy is all about the gathering in of the nations....

....we see clearly that Zechariah was being pointed to the gospel age....
 
.... so you ask if this has been fulfilled, and I respond by saying it is being fulfilled even today....

 

~

 

Beloved It Seems Strange To Me When Someone Totally Misses Who The Nations Are Coming To See

 

Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the LORD. Zechariah 8:22

 

For It Is The LORD Jesus Christ Himself Dwelling In Jerusalem

 

Again the word of the LORD of hosts came to me, saying,

 

Thus saith the LORD of hosts; I was jealous for Zion with great jealousy, and I was jealous for her with great fury.

 

Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion,

 

and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem:

 

and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth;

 

and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain. Zechariah 8:1-3

 

And No Number Of Man's Words Will Stop

 

For there shall be a day, that the watchmen upon the mount Ephraim shall cry, Arise ye, and let us go up to Zion unto the LORD our God.

 

For thus saith the LORD; Sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout among the chief of the nations: publish ye, praise ye, and say, O LORD, save thy people, the remnant of Israel.

 

Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither.

 

They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them:

 

I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble:

 

for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn. Jeremiah 31:6-9

 

His Return

 

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

 

Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

 

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

 

And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD:

 

for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD;

 

for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. Jeremiah 31:31-34

 

To Israel

 

Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:

 

If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

 

Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

 

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD

 

from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner. Jeremiah 31:35-38

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I didn't miss anything.  I am simply better at exegesis than you are.  The use of Israel doesn't include Gentiles.  He is speaking to Gentiles about their inclusion as beneficiaries of the covenants of promise.  He is not claiming that they are Israelites.  You are allowing your theology to drive your interpretation, rather than using sound interpretive principles.

 

 

The crazy idea that Gentiles can become, or replace seed born Israelites was your idea you brought into this conversation, I did not. And we see that's the off-topic subject you're stilling debating, but with who? not me, but with yourself and perhaps Williamania! Heck with the idea of "exegesis", you show you can't even understand simple English grammar of that Eph.2 Scripture by Apostle Paul.

 

Gentiles believers on Christ Jesus are NOT... required to be 'born' of Israel to be in that "commonwealth of Israel" that Apostle Paul declared to Gentile believers.

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Yes, Israelites and Gentiles inherit God's promise of the Messiah and become one Body. But notice that it is Israelites and Gentiles. Scripture never calls or says that believing Gentiles become Israelites/Israel. The One Body is a new thing, made of believers, and is not Israel. In the NT, Israel is made up of some believers and mostly unbelievers, so Israel is not the body of Christ. And the body of Christ is not Israel.   

 

 

 

Since when... was that idea of Gentiles becoming the seed of Israel ever a subject in that early section of posts? Just because shiloh wants to try and bring that false idea in doesn't mean we have to agree to it.

 

Moreover, per Apostle Paul in Rom.11, unbelieving Israelites are 'cut off' from The Root because of their unbelief, and can ONLY be graffed back in if they do not remain in unbelief. And God sent The New Covenant to the seed of Israel first, and a remnant of the seed did believe (like Christ's Apostles and disciples, including Paul, and all Israelites that come to Christ thereafter).

 

So how can that NOT... be about Israel?

 

The idea of a separation between Israel and Christ's Church is a made up doctrine of men, nothing more. It's the UNBELIEVING Israelites today that WANT to be apart from The New Covenant Jesus Christ by their OWN choice. If... they do not turn to Christ Jesus when He comes, but remain in that unbelief, then they will... be cut off, forever.

 

 

You are missing all of the prophetic verses in the OT which state that the Gentiles will come to the Messiah. There are no verses in the OT or the NT that Gentiles will become Israel by coming to the Messiah.

 

I have missed nothing! Because Apostle Paul emphatically said in Eph.2 that believing Gentiles on Christ Jesus have come into the covenants and promises to Israel by that "commonwealth of Israel" idea he proclaimed there. I didn't proclaim that, Apostle Paul did! Believing Gentiles inherit with Faithful Abraham like Paul also taught in Galatians 3.

 

Did that ever mean believing Gentiles literally becomes a flesh born Israelite by that Faith? No! Of course not, and I NEVER agreed to any such idea. So why do you keep trying to twist my words?

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I might be butting in where I am not wanted -but hey ho! 

 

 

 

I think before such a question can be answered you need to define what you mean by Israel - off the top of my head I can think of at least 4 different ways the Bible uses that term, to which are you referring, a single person, a land, a physical nation or a spiritual nation. It would also be helpful if you carefully define what you mean by church - my understanding of that term is 'all those who God has gathered out of the world in very age to be a people unto himself' but I suspect yours is different to mine :D

 

I know that I for one could never hope to answer your question without establishing clear definitions first because the risk of talking across each other is just too great as our meanings become lost upon the other person because of our own personal theological frameworks.  

 

 

I am butting in also.

 

You have 4 different so called definitions of Israel.

1. Jacob was renamed Israel, and the children of Jacob are called the children of Israel, or Israel as a short hand term

 

 

So you agree that sometimes the noun 'Isreal' יִשְׂרָאֵל refers to a person on some occasions,  like Gen 32:28

 

 

 

2. a land.   That is a modern view but is not biblical. In the bible, a nation comes from the Hebrew word 'goy'. It refers to a people group of a common ancestor. Certain land belonged to certain people groups. Egypt was a people group who owned the land called 'the land of Egypt'. Why the land of Egypt. It was an area of land which belonged to a people group called Egyptians, so it was the 'land of Egypt'. The land was never called Egypt, but is called the land of Egypt. Likewise, Israel is a people group made up of the children of Israel/Jacob, who were given a land. That land is referred to as the 'land of Israel'. Never just Israel, but the land of Israel. 

Actually גּוֹי has a far more nuanced meaning then that it can be used to described the heathen nations generally in contrast to the people of God, it can even be used to discribe a swarm of locusts (see CHALOT for example)

 

Now you may be right in regards to what you say about the Bible always putting the words 'land of' or 'terrority of' before the term 'Isreal' when it is speaking specifically of the land and not the nation - however that still means that the term 'Israel' when qualified in certain ways refers to the land the people were living in.

 

 

 

3. A nation. That is correct and has already been explained. A nation is a people group, not a country. The sons of Jacob are starting point of the children of Israel, and in biblical terms is a nation.

 

Ok, even if you daigree with me on the last one (as I suspect you will :D) we still have agreement that sometime the Bible is referring to a person and sometimes the Bible is referring to the nation that has come from that person - so that gives us at least two different ways the Bible uses the noun Israel, it can refer to an individual man, or it can refer to a whole people, race, nation correct? 

 

Hence one must define what one means by the term 'Israel' before we can discuss the churches relationship to that entity! 

 

 

 

4. Israel is not a spiritual nation, ever, in scripture. Today, Israel is made up of people; some who are saved and most who are not saved. There is reference in scripture to a foolish nation, made up of people from diverse nations. The foolish nation is to make Israel jealous. The foolish nation is the church.     

 

What then is the distinction that Paul makes in Rom 9:6 then when he says, For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, both 'Israel's cannot be referring to the physical nation can they - that wouldn't make any sense, Reading on we see that the children of the flesh (ie the physical descendants of Abraham) are not the children of God but rather it is the children of promise who are the children of God, v8, Gal 3:7 makes it clear that it is those who believe who are Abraham's true descendent - so, yes the Scriptures do use the term Israel to refer a spiritual people or nation.

 

Now again, regardless of whether you agree with me or not we have still seen that one needs to carefully define their terms to stop people talking past each other. Different theological perspectives invest different meanings into terms, and then too often they seek to force those meanings upon how others are using those terms and that, in turn, leads to the creation of straw man arguments and people talking past each other - that is the only point I am seeking to make here! Before we can meaningfully discuss what the relationship between the church and Israel is, we need to know what we are talking, or how we are defining those terms - if we do not do that there is absolutely no point in discussing each others views!   

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I would like to know where, in the Bible, is it written that the OT are included as part of the Church.

 

Again, that cannot be answered until you define how you are using the term church. 

 

I would also have to challenge the standard of evidence you are demanding - what exactly would you accept as biblical proof? Bear in mind my friend that the word 'trinity' is never found in scripture either, but the concept of God being one, yet there being more then one who is God permeates scriptures, and from the pages of scriptures it is easy to discern that there are three persons who are all identified as being God - hence we have the doctrine of the trinity in scripture.  

 

What we need to understand then is the doctrine of the church as taught in scripture, now by my reckoning the word 'church' (in all forms) is found some 110 times in the NT and never in the old. The Greek term, ἐκκλησία is actually found 114 times - sometimes that word is just used to identify an ordering assembling of people. Now, what becomes immediately apparent as we look at the words used to describe the church in the NT most often the term refers to a local church - now quite obviously you wouldn't expect old testament Jews to be part of a local NT church.

 

Now more interestingly there are times where the term church is not used of a local congregation, but of the whole body of believers, for example Matt 16:18. So, how would a first century Jew understand this term, that Jesus hasn't previously explained?  I would suggest he would turn to the Old Testament to see what Jesus means when he says 'he will build his assembly' and in doing so they would discover the concept of God having an assembly in the old testament, see for example, Ex 12:6, Lev 4:14 (and about another 150 references) that this is what they understood becomes clear from references like Acts 7:38 "This is he who was in the congregation (ἐκκλησία) in the wilderness with the Angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers, the one who received the living oracles to give to us," here Stephen refers to the church in the wilderness. Turning to the LXX we see that this term ἐκκλησία that Jesus Christ seems to have introduced is actually no introduction at all, for this is the word often used in the LXX to refer to the gathering together of God's people (some 102 times) 

 

What do we deduce from this quick study, well simply put, the term church is a transliteration of the Greek word ἐκκλησία and it is used primarily in reference  to those gathered together as the people of God, either in a local congregation or in a more universal sense. Further more this was not a new term coined by the Lord Jesus Christ or the NT writers, but was rather a common Greek term used by the Jews in references to the assembly of God's people in the Old Testament. So actually with a little bit of legwork we see that the Old Testament people of God are actually referred to as 'the church' in the NT and also in the Greek version of the Old testament.  

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Guest shiloh357

 

I would like to know where, in the Bible, is it written that the OT are included as part of the Church.

 

Again, that cannot be answered until you define how you are using the term church. 

 

I would also have to challenge the standard of evidence you are demanding - what exactly would you accept as biblical proof? Bear in mind my friend that the word 'trinity' is never found in scripture either, but the concept of God being one, yet there being more then one who is God permeates scriptures, and from the pages of scriptures it is easy to discern that there are three persons who are all identified as being God - hence we have the doctrine of the trinity in scripture.  

 

What we need to understand then is the doctrine of the church as taught in scripture, now by my reckoning the word 'church' (in all forms) is found some 110 times in the NT and never in the old. The Greek term, ἐκκλησία is actually found 114 times - sometimes that word is just used to identify an ordering assembling of people. Now, what becomes immediately apparent as we look at the words used to describe the church in the NT most often the term refers to a local church - now quite obviously you wouldn't expect old testament Jews to be part of a local NT church.

 

Now more interestingly there are times where the term church is not used of a local congregation, but of the whole body of believers, for example Matt 16:18. So, how would a first century Jew understand this term, that Jesus hasn't previously explained?  I would suggest he would turn to the Old Testament to see what Jesus means when he says 'he will build his assembly' and in doing so they would discover the concept of God having an assembly in the old testament, see for example, Ex 12:6, Lev 4:14 (and about another 150 references) that this is what they understood becomes clear from references like Acts 7:38 "This is he who was in the congregation (ἐκκλησία) in the wilderness with the Angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers, the one who received the living oracles to give to us," here Stephen refers to the church in the wilderness. Turning to the LXX we see that this term ἐκκλησία that Jesus Christ seems to have introduced is actually no introduction at all, for this is the word often used in the LXX to refer to the gathering together of God's people (some 102 times) 

 

What do we deduce from this quick study, well simply put, the term church is a transliteration of the Greek word ἐκκλησία and it is used primarily in reference  to those gathered together as the people of God, either in a local congregation or in a more universal sense. Further more this was not a new term coined by the Lord Jesus Christ or the NT writers, but was rather a common Greek term used by the Jews in references to the assembly of God's people in the Old Testament. So actually with a little bit of legwork we see that the Old Testament people of God are actually referred to as 'the church' in the NT and also in the Greek version of the Old testament.  

 

"The Church" is not an OT concept.   The Church was a mystery hidden in God and not revealed until God revealed to His apostles.   There is no mention of the Church or Church age in the OT.  There are no prophecies of the Church in the OT. 

 

The term ekklessia may have already been in use prior to the New Covenant, but the doctrine of the Church is not an OT doctrine.  And there is no use of it in the NT that includes OT saints.  Acts. 7:38 is not teaching the doctrine of the Church.  You are really stretching on that one.

 

I would point out that Jesus in Matt. 16 speaking to His disciples says, "upon this rock, I will build my church (ekklessia).   He spoke of it in the future tense. He did not speak of it as a spiritual entity that already existed.  He didn't say, "upon this rock I am building my Church.

 

Furthermore, Paul, Romans 9:3b-4 in referring to ethnic Israelites still considers the covenants, the promises and even the Temple services as still belonging to Israel, even during the church age and even during a time when Israel is in a state of disobedience.   He still speaks of Israel as a separate entity from the Church.

 

There is not ONE reference to Israel in the NT that speaks of it as continuance of biblical Israel.  It never equates Israel with the Church.   Israel Is Israel and the Church is the Church.  Israel and the Church are radically separate.

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Guest shiloh357

 

 

 

I didn't miss anything.  I am simply better at exegesis than you are.  The use of Israel doesn't include Gentiles.  He is speaking to Gentiles about their inclusion as beneficiaries of the covenants of promise.  He is not claiming that they are Israelites.  You are allowing your theology to drive your interpretation, rather than using sound interpretive principles.

 

 

The crazy idea that Gentiles can become, or replace seed born Israelites was your idea you brought into this conversation, I did not. And we see that's the off-topic subject you're stilling debating, but with who? not me, but with yourself and perhaps Williamania! Heck with the idea of "exegesis", you show you can't even understand simple English grammar of that Eph.2 Scripture by Apostle Paul.

 

Gentiles believers on Christ Jesus are NOT... required to be 'born' of Israel to be in that "commonwealth of Israel" that Apostle Paul declared to Gentile believers.

 

All I am saying is that "Israel" never includes Gentiles.   He doesn't include Gentile believers as spiritual Israelites.  

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All I am saying is that "Israel" never includes Gentiles.   He doesn't include Gentile believers as spiritual Israelites.  

 

 

But that's where you fail miserably too.

 

Rom.9

For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

 

 

Gal.3

Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

 

18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

 

 

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

 

The name Israel is about God's Promise by Faith first given through Abraham, because that early Promise included God's Birthright promises that descended down to Ephraim and Manasseh. All those of Faith inherit with Abraham, and that has always included God's Promises to Abraham of the land, of many seed, ruling the gates of his enemies, plenty of corn and wine, etc.

 

But I will tell you who tries to make that name 'Israel' into something it is not. The crept in unawares that took over the seat of Moses long ago, foreigners of the Canaanites which the children of Israel were not able to completely destroy per God's commandment, those seek to claim God's Israel and the promises for their selves, to set up their own kingdom denying the only One True God and to instead place their 'rock' in power over it in place of Jesus Christ. It's going to be fun to watch, because just when they think... they have succeeded in doing that, Christ Jesus is going to come to destroy their fake kingdom they have spent centuries to build off this earth, forever.

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