Endtime Layout

[iamlamad]

 

Only in your imagination. God has promised the world that He would give the Antichrist 42 months of authority. That count begins at the midpoint of the week, as shown in chapter 13. OF COURSE the bowls of wrath occur after chapter 13. So those the days of great tribulation occur after chapter 13. In fact, the Beast does not set up his image and mark until AFTER chapter 14. Then the worship of the Beast and the mark are enforced and the days of great tribulation that Jesus spoke of will take place, starting in chapter 15. God will then use the vials and plagues to SHORTEN those days of great tribulation. This is the exact order John has laid it out. It cannot be and will not be changed.

 

The truth is, the kingdoms of the world are transferred to Christ as the midpoint, but He does not return to take possession until AFTER the 70th week has finished, as shown in Rev. 19.

 

 

 

Man's imagination and reasoning?  I reasoned from the scriptures which you have not dealt with in a reasonable manner. This idea of yours that there is a transfer of the kingdoms to Jesus but at that time Jesus does not actually take possession of them is a weak response, and you have given no further scriptural backing. Why would you weaken the clarity of the scriptures with some made up philosophy? Rev 11:15 contradicts your view, showing that the second coming occurs at the 7th trumpet.  The bowls of wrath are therefore not subsequent to the trumpets, they ALSO lead up the second coming.  

 

Rev 11

15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

“The kingdom of the world has become  the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,

    and he will reign for ever and ever.”

 

This does not even hint at a delayed possession, you need to do better than diluting the literal wording of the bible.

 

You are mistaken; it does not even hint at physical (as if being there) possession. It is a matter or rulership. God has ALWAYS owned the earth. But since Adam, Satan has ruled. That rulership was transferred to Jesus. There is nothing in chapter 11 that even hints of possession. That comes in chapter 19, where we see Jesus coming to earth to fight the battle of Armageddon. Now THAT is possession. You have read with preconceived glasses. If you imagine Jesus comes at the 7th trumpet, do you also then say He comes AGAIN in chapter 19? Is this the intent of the Author? OF COURSE IT IS NOT!

 

God could destroy the word as happens in the vials, until he has rulership. That would be like a landlord leasing an apartment to someone, then destroying the apartment while it was leased. That would be illegal and the landlord would go to jail. God does not do illegal things. The earth was leased to Adam. Satan deceieved Eve and Adam sinned, so Satan usurped Adam's lease and became the god of this world. He has held that and continues today to hold that possession. The entire human race was included. That is why it is written that Jesus ransomed the human race back. The lease document is the very book that was held in the Father's right hand. If no one could ever be found worthy to break the seals, then Satan would for ever remain God of this world. THANK GOD Jesus was found worthy. When He began breaking the seals, that started the countdown to the end of Satan's reign as ruler of this planet.

 

“The kingdom of the world has become  the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,

    and he will reign for ever and ever.”

 

This is speaking of rulership and reign. Who was ruling and reigning before this great event? Satan was ruling. Adam's lease will run out at this point in time, and suddenly Satan has no more legal recourse: the lease he usurped has ended. Then immediately Michael goes after Satan to take him DOWN. Why? Because Satan is no longer the ruler. It makes perfect sense as written. Where do you find a "coming" in these words - as in physical possession? It is simply not there.

 

I say it is VERY reasonable to accept the God given chronology of Revelation. It is UNREASONABLE to imagine it needs to be rearranged. Therefore, DON'T TRY TO REARRANGE the book! It is in GOD'S order as written. Jesus does not return to take physical possession until chapter 19, AFTER the 70th week is completed and AFTER the 42 months of authority given to the Beast.

[Last Daze]

Then the angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the land lifted up his right hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and the things in it, and the earth and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it, that there will be delay no longer, but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as He preached to His servants the prophets.  Revelation 10:5-7

 

I like this passage too.

[ARGOSY]

 

 

I say it is VERY reasonable to accept the God given chronology of Revelation. It is UNREASONABLE to imagine it needs to be rearranged. Therefore, DON'T TRY TO REARRANGE the book! It is in GOD'S order as written. Jesus does not return to take physical possession until chapter 19, AFTER the 70th week is completed and AFTER the 42 months of authority given to the Beast.

 

 

The God-given chronology of Revelation is to repeatedly mention the coming of Christ. Even Revelation chapter 1 mentions the coming of Christ:

v7  “Look, he is coming with the clouds,”   and “every eye will see him, even those who pierced him”;     and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.

 

Rev 16 mentions the second coming , and also the final battle of Armageddon:

15 “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.” 16 Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

 

Rev 19 also mentions the second coming and that final battle. 

 

Rev 12 mentions 3.5 years of persecution. Yet Rev 13 also mentions 3.5 years of persecution.

 

So this perfect chronology that you claim does not exist in Revelation, which contains repeated visions about the end-times. It is not one single flowing vision, John sees a number of visions. I may never convince you, but I honestly feel this is perfectly obvious to most Christians. I rest my case.

[ARGOSY]

Then the angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the land lifted up his right hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and the things in it, and the earth and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it, that there will be delay no longer, but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as He preached to His servants the prophets.  Revelation 10:5-7

 

I like this passage too.

 

 

Well said. Obviously prophecy is subject to interpretation, but if anyone honestly thinks about the wording its pretty obvious that the second coming occurs at the 7th trumpet.

[rollinTHUNDER]

Then the angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the land lifted up his right hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and the things in it, and the earth and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it, that there will be delay no longer, but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as He preached to His servants the prophets.  Revelation 10:5-7

 

I like this passage too.

 

 

Well said. Obviously prophecy is subject to interpretation, but if anyone honestly thinks about the wording its pretty obvious that the second coming occurs at the 7th trumpet.

What if someone honestly thought about the wording and it was pretty obvious that the rapture occurs at the 7th trumpet instead? What makes this so obvious to you?

Cheers

[ARGOSY]

 

What if someone honestly thought about the wording and it was pretty obvious that the rapture occurs at the 7th trumpet instead? What makes this so obvious to you?

Cheers

 

 

15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

“The kingdom of the world has become

    the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,

    and he will reign for ever and ever.”

16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:

“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,

    the One who is and who was,

because you have taken your great power

    and have begun to reign.

18 The nations were angry,

    and your wrath has come.

The time has come for judging the dead,

    and for rewarding your servants the prophets

and your people who revere your name,

    both great and small—

and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

 

To place these events later would ruin the literal wording surrounding the 7th trumpet, the wording which says 

"begun to reign"

"wrath has come"

"the time has come"  for "judging the dead" and  "destroying those who destroy the earth"

 

To place all these events at mid-trib requires less obvious explanations, rather than just accepting the text at face value.

[iamlamad]

Then the angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the land lifted up his right hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and the things in it, and the earth and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it, that there will be delay no longer, but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as He preached to His servants the prophets.  Revelation 10:5-7

 

I like this passage too.

Please, tell us what this mystery was and is.

[iamlamad]

 

 

 

I say it is VERY reasonable to accept the God given chronology of Revelation. It is UNREASONABLE to imagine it needs to be rearranged. Therefore, DON'T TRY TO REARRANGE the book! It is in GOD'S order as written. Jesus does not return to take physical possession until chapter 19, AFTER the 70th week is completed and AFTER the 42 months of authority given to the Beast.

 

 

The God-given chronology of Revelation is to repeatedly mention the coming of Christ. Even Revelation chapter 1 mentions the coming of Christ:

v7  “Look, he is coming with the clouds,”   and “every eye will see him, even those who pierced him”;     and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.

 

Rev 16 mentions the second coming , and also the final battle of Armageddon:

15 “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.” 16 Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

 

Rev 19 also mentions the second coming and that final battle. 

 

Rev 12 mentions 3.5 years of persecution. Yet Rev 13 also mentions 3.5 years of persecution.

 

So this perfect chronology that you claim does not exist in Revelation, which contains repeated visions about the end-times. It is not one single flowing vision, John sees a number of visions. I may never convince you, but I honestly feel this is perfectly obvious to most Christians. I rest my case.

 

Revelation 1:7 is speaking of the future: "Behold He is coming..."  "will see" and "will mourn" are future tense in the Greek. John is pointing to His coming sometime in the future, of course pointing to Rev. 19. Revelation 16:15 is a simple statement of fact of HOW He will come: He is coming as a thief. There is perhaps 20 verses in the New Testament that speak of His coming. NON of them show His coming except Rev. 19. He certainly will not come 20 more times! He will come once FOR His bride, and then once more WITH His bride.

 

Revelation 19 not only mentions His coming, it describes His coming in detail, for John in the vision SAW Him coming. In John's narrative, it is WHEN He will come. All the other references in the New Testament are only prophecies of His coming.

 

The 3 1/2 years are mentioned five times! But these do not add one to another; they are run simultaneously, for ONE (1) second half of the 70th week. Even these 5 mentions are placed in proper order. The count in 11:2 of 42 months starts some little time before the count of 1260 days one verse later. The man of sin will enter Jerusalem (11:1-2) just before the two witnesses come and begin their witnessing. I am convinced they come then because the man of sin just came.

 

So God's perfect chronology is there in black in white in Revelation: each item place in the exact order in which they will take place when these things happen. If you can't believe it now, just hang on, and you will see these things come with your own eyes.

[iamlamad]

 

Then the angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the land lifted up his right hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and the things in it, and the earth and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it, that there will be delay no longer, but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as He preached to His servants the prophets.  Revelation 10:5-7

 

I like this passage too.

 

 

Well said. Obviously prophecy is subject to interpretation, but if anyone honestly thinks about the wording its pretty obvious that the second coming occurs at the 7th trumpet.

 

You say this, yet the word "coming" is NOT FOUND in this text. Neither is there even a HINT of a coming found here. I think you WANT to find it because you believe it should be here. Sorry, it does not work that way. Read the text, then believe what it says. It should be easy to believe Jesus begins to reign at this point, for that is clearly written. To believe this is a coming when John does not tell us it is - that in human imagination.

 

If you believe this is a coming, do you then add one more coming, knowing that Rev. 16 is also a coming?

[Last Daze]

 

Then the angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the land lifted up his right hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and the things in it, and the earth and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it, that there will be delay no longer, but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as He preached to His servants the prophets.  Revelation 10:5-7

 

I like this passage too.

Please, tell us what this mystery was and is.

 

I was going to ask you the same thing.