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It is not my problem of you cannot understand what is written. It is a MYTH that the 7th trumpet is at the end. It is in chapter 11. That means, 10 chapters were written before it, and and 11 chapters after it. Do you imagine God was confused as how to write history in advance? Do you imagine John was just playing with numbers for sequencing? When you learn that what is written in one chapter will happen in real life AFTER what is written in previous chapters, and what is written in later chapters will ALWAYS happen AFTER previous chapters (with minor exceptions for parenthesis) in the book of Revelation, you will then be on your way to understanding this book. If you think you need to rearrange (as the 7th trumpet being the "end") you are still confused.

 

Your apple logic doesn't work with the Daniel-Revelation prophecy, mainly because what you're saying does not align with either Book.

 

Rev.10 declares when the 7th angel begins to sound, what God gave His OT prophets to write will be finished. So how can there be another 3.5 years after the 7th Trumpet? Cannot be, not if one keeps to what is actually written in God's Word.

 

 

ALWAYS REMEMBER:

 

AXIOM on Revelation:

 

ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology, is immediately suspect and WILL be proven wrong.

 

By the way, have you TRIED to cut an apple in half, throw away one half (or eat it) then try to cut it in half again and end up still with one half? It is simply impossible. John shows us TWO HALVES of the week in Revelation.

 

 

LAMAD

 

 

I have no problem reading and understanding these Scriptures as written:

 

 

Rev.10

But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as He hath declared to His servants the prophets.

 

Rev.11

14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.

 

The doctrine you're following that adds 3.5 years of tribulation after that 7th trumpet does not align with God's Word.

 

Of course it does. you think Jesus takes physical possession the moment the kingdoms of the world are transferred to Jesus. You are simply wrong. God has given His word, which cannot be broken, that the Beast will have 42 months of authority AFTER the abomination. It is the very same 42 months the city will be trampled, and the very same 1260 days of witnessing and fleeing. All are about the last half of the week. That last half of the week in from the 7th trumpet to the 7th vial.

 

You do not have any authority to rearrange what John has written and attempt to put the 7th trumpet into chapter 19, when Jesus returns.

 

There IS something written in chapter 11 - written as an parenthesis - that is about the end: it is 11:7-13. The real time these events will happen will be AFTER they have testified for 1260 days, which will end just 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial that ends the week. So they will be killed almost at the end of the week. The great earthquake when they rise is the very same earthquake we read about at the 7th vial.

 

What MYSTERY is finished at the 7th vial? It is not all mysteries, it is ONE mystery. God was 6 days creating, and on the 7th day rested. Man will have authority to rule earth for 6000 years, but on the 7 thousandth year GOD will reign. Satan has been the "god of this world" for almost 6000 years now, but when the 7th trumpet is sounded, his usurped reign will END (Adam's lease runs out) and the kingdoms of this world will be TRANSFERRED to Jesus Christ`.

 

Always remember, NO VIAL can be poured out until all 7 trumpets have sounded.

 

LAMAD

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I have no problem reading and understanding these Scriptures as written:

 

 

Rev.10

But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as He hath declared to His servants the prophets.

 

Rev.11

14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.

 

The doctrine you're following that adds 3.5 years of tribulation after that 7th trumpet does not align with God's Word.

 

 

Of course it does. you think Jesus takes physical possession the moment the kingdoms of the world are transferred to Jesus. You are simply wrong.

 

 

When those kingdoms there "become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ...", what do you think that "... and He shall reign for ever and ever" actually means???

 

I'm not the one doing any re-arranging of Scripture like you falsely claim. It's the doctrine of men you're following that is doing that...

 

 

The following is still within the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe timing that began in Rev.9...

 

Rev.11

But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

And I will give power unto My two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

 

The 7th trumpet has yet to sound at that point. There's your 42 months timing. It's the same timing those Gentiles will tread the holy city, and the same timing of the prophesying by God's two witnesses in Jerusalem before they are killed, which is pointing to the "great tribulation" timing prior to Jesus' coming.

 

So HOW can that 42 months be AFTER... the LATER Rev.11 verses about the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe period???

 

This clearly shows how you have those events backwards... in your mind.

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I have no problem reading and understanding these Scriptures as written:

 

 

Rev.10

But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as He hath declared to His servants the prophets.

 

Rev.11

14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.

 

The doctrine you're following that adds 3.5 years of tribulation after that 7th trumpet does not align with God's Word.

 

Of course it does. you think Jesus takes physical possession the moment the kingdoms of the world are transferred to Jesus. You are simply wrong.

 

When those kingdoms there "become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ...", what do you think that "... and He shall reign for ever and ever" actually means???

 

I'm not the one doing any re-arranging of Scripture like you falsely claim. It's the doctrine of men you're following that is doing that...

 

 

The following is still within the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe timing that began in Rev.9...

 

Rev.11

But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

And I will give power unto My two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

 

The 7th trumpet has yet to sound at that point. There's your 42 months timing. It's the same timing those Gentiles will tread the holy city, and the same timing of the prophesying by God's two witnesses in Jerusalem before they are killed, which is pointing to the "great tribulation" timing prior to Jesus' coming.

 

So HOW can that 42 months be AFTER... the LATER Rev.11 verses about the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe period???

 

This clearly shows how you have those events backwards... in your mind.

*** Removed personal attack *** This is John's chronology:

 

1. The man of sin shows up, probably 3 1/2 days before the exact midpoint: 7th trumpet The city will be trampled for the next 42 months.

2. The two witnesses show up (probably seconds after the man of sin) and begin testifying*. They will testify 1260 days parallel with 42 M.

3. 3 1/2 days later the man of sin will enter the temple and the daily sacrifices will cease. It is the abomination that divides the week.

4. Seconds after the 7th trumpet those in Judea begin fleeing.  (12:6)

5. Seconds after the 7th trumpet Michael goes after Satan to cast him down.

6. Those fleeing will have supernatural protection for 3 1/2 years. (All counts begins at the verse of mention.) 12:14

 

*The two witnesses will testify for 1260 days which will take them to just 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial that ends the week. They will be killed and lay dead for these 3 1/2 days. They will rise up at the 7th vial when ALL the Old Testament saints rise.

 

If you disagree on any of these points, we can discuss WHY you disagree.

 

He shall reign for ever and ever

 

This means that the kingdoms of the world will never again be taken away from God. Jesus will rule forever. Very simple, basic English. It is TRUTH and I agree with it. However, Jesus does not return to earth until chapter 19, which will be 3 1/2 years later. Chapters 12-18 will take place between the 7th trumpet sounding and Jesus returning. This also is truth. If you disagree, you are rearranging the book.

 

The following is still within the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe timing that began in Rev.9..

 

Do you imagine that 6th trumpet will sound for days on end? WOW! That angel must have some set of lungs!  No, the 6th trumpet sounds and then QUITS sounding. And the events assigned to that 6th trumpet take place: one third of mankind are killed. BELIEVE IT, for it is written. Killed means DEAD killed. Don't spiritualize it, for it is meant to be taken literally. Notice what John wrote next: "And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not"  So one third of earth's population will be killed at the 6th trumpet judgment. God will do exactly what He said He would do: destroy the world and the sinners in the world. This 6th trumpet is a good start. The end of chapter 9 is the END of the 6th trumpet. We could say that the events of chapter 10 come AFTER the 6th trumpet. The events of chapter 11 come AFTER the 6th trumpet.  So OF COURSE the city being trampled and the two witnesses testifying will come AFTER the 6th trumpet judgment has come and gone.

 

Right; at the point that the city BEGINS to be trampled and the point that the two witnesses BEGIN to testify will be 3 1/2 days before the 7th trumpet marks the middle of the week, so this is certainly before as you said. Keep in mind, this is the BEGINNING of these times, and the count (42 months and 1260 days) will BEGIN here.

 

There's your 42 months timing.

 

NO NO NO!  That is the STARTING POINT of the 42 months and 1260 days. The 7th trumpet will sound just 3 1/2 days AFTER this starting point.

 

So HOW can that 42 months be AFTER... the LATER Rev.11 verses about the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe period???

 *** Removed personal attack *** The 42 months do not all take place in 11:1-2! That is just the STARTING POINT.

The 1260 days do not take place in 11:3. That is the STARTING POINT.

 

What you are missing is that 11:4-13 are written as a PARENTHESIS and have no bearing on chronology. In other words, verse 11:15 comes ONLY 3 1/2 days after verses 1-3.

 

John has given us 6 different parallel journeys to the end of the week:

42 months of trampling

1260 days of testifying

1260 days of fleeing

3 1/2 years of protection

42 months of authority

 

and #6, John's narrative from chapters 11 on through chapter 19 when Jesus returns.

 

All of these times run parallel, meaning at the same time. They all end at or near the 7th vial that ends the week. Salty, this is TRUTH. Any other theory will be false. Think about it.

 

LAMAD

Edited by OneLight
personal attack

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1. The man of sin shows up, probably 3 1/2 days before the exact midpoint: 7th trumpet The city will be trampled for the next 42 months.

 

 

 

 

 

That 3.5 days application is totally unfounded, not Scripture at all, because the Rev.11 reference to 3.5 days is how long the dead bodies of God's two witnesses lay in the street of Jerusalem once they are killed by... whom? By the beast that ascends from the bottomless pit (Rev.11:7). That means the 2nd beast of Rev.13:11 forward is already there, reigning in Jerusalem. Per Rev.13 the dragon is to reign 42 months. That's the same timing of Rev.11 with God's two witnesses prophesying for 1260 days before they are killed and their dead bodies left in the street for 3.5 days. Like I said, you're timing does not align with the actual written Scripture at all.

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1. The man of sin shows up, probably 3 1/2 days before the exact midpoint: 7th trumpet The city will be trampled for the next 42 months.

 

 

 

 

 

That 3.5 days application is totally unfounded, not Scripture at all, because the Rev.11 reference to 3.5 days is how long the dead bodies of God's two witnesses lay in the street of Jerusalem once they are killed by... whom? By the beast that ascends from the bottomless pit (Rev.11:7). That means the 2nd beast of Rev.13:11 forward is already there, reigning in Jerusalem. Per Rev.13 the dragon is to reign 42 months. That's the same timing of Rev.11 with God's two witnesses prophesying for 1260 days before they are killed and their dead bodies left in the street for 3.5 days. Like I said, you're timing does not align with the actual written Scripture at all.

 

  I will agree that John did not write that the two witnesses begin 3 1/2 days before the midpoint. But we can determine this by what John did write.

 

 

Please consider:

 

From the exact midpoint to the 7th vial that ends the week  will be 1260 days.

The city will be trampled 42 months, as shown in verses 1 & 2. This tells me the man of sin arrives in Jerusalem at this time. He MUST be in Jerusalem to enter the temple in Jerusalem, right? He comes with armies that will trample the city for 42 months. From this 42 months we know that verses 1 & 2 are VERY CLOSE to the midpoint. Maybe not to the exact day, but close enough to write 42 months. So perhaps a couple of days off from 1260? Would 3 1/2 days off be close enough to write 42 months?

 

The two witnesses show up to begin testifying AFTER the man of sin with his armies arrive in Jerusalem. it is written that they will testify for 1260 days. These days will PARALLEL the 42 months of trampling. Since they are starting their testimony just before the exact midpoint, that shows us they will die just before the 7th vial. Since John tells us they lay dead for 3 1/2 days, and then are raised, is is possible that they begin testifying 3 1/2 days before the midpoint and die 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial?

 

When we consider there is a great earthquake at the 7th vial, and a great earthquake when the two witnesses rise, is it possible that they are the very same earthquake? It is more than possible, it is VERY PROBABLE.

 

Next, I consider WHO these two witnesses will be. I am convinced they are OLD TESTAMENT saints. Next, I consider WHEN the Old Testament saints rise. I puzzled over that question for years, until I discovered that when people long dead are raised to resurrection bodies that rising will CAUSE an earthquake. (See Matthew 27:  "the earth did quake....and the graves were opened.") That earthquake at the 7th vial will be caused by the righteous dead from the Old Testament rising. I also puzzled why the marriage and supper had to wait until AFTER the 70th week. It is because God will wait for the Old Testament saints to rise, for they will be GUESTS at the marriage.

 

Since the two witnesses will be Old Testament saints, does it not make sense that they will rise with resurrection bodies with all the rest of the Old Testament saints? It does to me.

 

Therefore, LOGIC tells me the two witnesses appear and begin testifying just 3 1/2 days before the midpoint, then testify for 1260 days, taking them to just 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial. they lay dead and will rise with the rest of the Old Testament saints at the 7th vial.

 

What part of this do you disagree with?

 

LAMAD

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It is very simple: get an apple, and cut it in half. The knife you use to cut it represents the abomination. Throw one half away, or eat and and save the other half for tomorrow. Imagine tomorrow is 2000 years later. Now take the half of an apple left and try to divide in in half and still end up with a half.  Remember,  the abomination DIVIDES the week into two halves. Therefore at the time of the abomination, there must be an entire week to divided, so as to end up with 42 months, and 1260 days.

 

If you say the first half was finished in 32 AD, then it would be 2000 years dividing the week, NOT the abomination.

 

Yes, I agree, all the mentions of the 3 1/2 years, given in days, months and years all are for the last half of the week. But the first half must be there to make a whole to be divided by the abomination.  And that is EXACTLY what the book of Revelation shows us. The abomination takes place in chapter 11. What events PRECEDE chapter 11? Of course the trumpet judgements. They will take place in the FIRST HALF of the week.

 

LAMAD

 

 

The bible does not say that the antichrist splits any period in half.   This is just an assumption coming from the standard dispensationalist interpretation of Daniel 9:27

 

Did you look up the Hebrew word that was translated as "midst" and see what it means? It means to divide in half.

 

 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week; and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease.

 

This speaks of a "week" which we know to be a week of years, or 7 years. Daniel tells us that in the exact middle of the week (the week divided in half) someone will cause the sacrifices to cease. This event then will come at the exact middle of the 7 years, and this is proven 7 times in scripture as both Daniel and John speak the last half of this week.

 

So the bible CERTAINLY tells us the week will be divided. Read it again; it is right there.

 

LAMAD

 

 

 

Yes the week is divided that's for sure. But does the antichrist divide the week?  MOST translations have a different person who confirms the covenant from the person who sets up the abomination.  

 

I don't think so. It is preconceptions of the readers and the rules for the use of pronouns.  My point was, a week already divided into two halves by the abomination cannot be divided again and end up with halves.

 

LAMAD

 

 

The wording just does not say that the "abomination" divided the week. You are reading that into the text. The wording says the week was divided.  This is what I believe as well, the week was divided/split into two.  This could also be seen as a break in the week.  Like I said, most translations mention two characters not one, and yet you quoted from one of the translations that just mention one character. Here's another translation:

 

27 And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who [b]makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate

 

So the fact that MOST translations agree with me and not you about two separate characters puts me at a slight advantage in this debate.

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It is very simple: get an apple, and cut it in half. The knife you use to cut it represents the abomination. Throw one half away, or eat and and save the other half for tomorrow. Imagine tomorrow is 2000 years later. Now take the half of an apple left and try to divide in in half and still end up with a half.  Remember,  the abomination DIVIDES the week into two halves. Therefore at the time of the abomination, there must be an entire week to divided, so as to end up with 42 months, and 1260 days.

 

If you say the first half was finished in 32 AD, then it would be 2000 years dividing the week, NOT the abomination.

 

Yes, I agree, all the mentions of the 3 1/2 years, given in days, months and years all are for the last half of the week. But the first half must be there to make a whole to be divided by the abomination.  And that is EXACTLY what the book of Revelation shows us. The abomination takes place in chapter 11. What events PRECEDE chapter 11? Of course the trumpet judgements. They will take place in the FIRST HALF of the week.

 

LAMAD

 

 

The bible does not say that the antichrist splits any period in half.   This is just an assumption coming from the standard dispensationalist interpretation of Daniel 9:27

 

Did you look up the Hebrew word that was translated as "midst" and see what it means? It means to divide in half.

 

 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week; and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease.

 

This speaks of a "week" which we know to be a week of years, or 7 years. Daniel tells us that in the exact middle of the week (the week divided in half) someone will cause the sacrifices to cease. This event then will come at the exact middle of the 7 years, and this is proven 7 times in scripture as both Daniel and John speak the last half of this week.

 

So the bible CERTAINLY tells us the week will be divided. Read it again; it is right there.

 

LAMAD

 

 

 

Yes the week is divided that's for sure. But does the antichrist divide the week?  MOST translations have a different person who confirms the covenant from the person who sets up the abomination.  

 

I don't think so. It is preconceptions of the readers and the rules for the use of pronouns.  My point was, a week already divided into two halves by the abomination cannot be divided again and end up with halves.

 

LAMAD

 

 

The wording just does not say that the "abomination" divided the week. You are reading that into the text. The wording says the week was divided.  This is what I believe as well, the week was divided/split into two.  This could also be seen as a break in the week.  Like I said, most translations mention two characters not one, and yet you quoted from one of the translations that just mention one character. Here's another translation:

 

27 And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who [b]makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate

 

So the fact that MOST translations agree with me and not you about two separate characters puts me at a slight advantage in this debate.

 

WE should not rely on one single verse, but take everything the bible has to say. Yes, I agree that the word "midst" is in reference to stopping the daily sacrifices. I think Paul has made it clear what will stop the sacrifices. When the man of sin enters the Holy of Holies and declares that he is God, the sacrifices must stop, because the temple must be cleansed before they could begin again - and there is simply no chance to do that. I think very soon after he enters the temple Satan is cast down and the man of sin becomes possessed by Satan Himself, and he becomes the Beast of Rev. 13.

 

More yet, the fact that a Gentile has entered the most holy place IS an abomination. Worse, he has declared he is God, making him even more of an abomination.

 

Will this theory fit Dan. 9: 27? Of course it will.

 

From Adam Clarke commentary:

Verse 27. And for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate

This clause is remarkably obscure. kenaph shikkutsim meshomem, "And upon the wing of abominations causing amazement." This is a literal translation of the place; but still there is no determinate sense. A Hebrew MS., written in the thirteenth century, has preserved a very remarkable reading here, which frees the place from all embarrassment. Instead of the above reading, this valuable MS. has ubeheychal yihyey shikkuts; that is, "And in the temple (of the Lord) there shall be abomination." This makes the passage plain, and is strictly conformable to the facts themselves, for the temple was profaned; and it agrees with the prediction of our Lord, who said that the abomination that maketh desolate should stand in the holy place, Matthew 24:15, and quotes the words as spoken διαδανιηλτουφÏοφητου, by Daniel the prophet. That the above reading gives the true sense, there can be little doubt, because it is countenanced by the most eminent ancient versions.

The Vulgate reads, Et erit in templo abominatio, "And in the temple there shall be abomination."

The Septuagint (Greek would not print here), "And upon the temple there shall be the abomination of desolation."

The Arabic, "And upon the sanctuary there shall be the abomination of ruin."

 

David Guzik commentary:

i. Abominations translates an ancient Hebrew word (shiqquwts) that is connected to horrific idolatry (Deuteronomy 29:17, 1 Kings 11:5-7, 2 Kings 23:13). The idea is that the coming prince breaks the covenant and brings an end to sacrifice and offering by desecrating the holy place of the temple with a horrific idolatry.

ii. Jesus called this the abomination of desolation (Matthew 24:15) and indicated that it would be a pivotal sign in the Great Tribulation. Paul referred to the idolatry of the coming prince in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4.

 

Wycliffe Bible:

9:27  Forsothe o wouk `of yeeris schal conferme the couenaunt to many men, and the offryng and sacrifice schal faile in the myddis of the wouke of yeeris; and abhomynacioun of desolacioun schal be in the temple, and the desolacioun schal contynue til to the parformyng and ende.

 

Coverdale:

9:27 He shall make a stronge bonde with many, for the space of a weke: and when the weke is half gone, he shal put downe the slayne and meatoffringe. And in the temple there shalbe an abhominable desolacio, till it haue destroyed all. And it is concluded, yt this waistinge shal continue vnto the ende.

 

Bishop's bible: 9:27 He shall confirme the couenaunt with many for one weeke, and in the midst of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to ceasse, and for the ouerspreading of the abhominations, he shal make it desolate, [euen] vntil the consummation determined shalbe powred vpon the desolate.

 

Geneva Bible: 9:27  And he shal confirme the couenant with many for one weeke: and in the middes of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of the abominations, he shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation determined shalbe powred vpon the desolate.

 

I believe there is enough evidence that the intent of the scriptures is that the entire week is still ahead of us. In fact, Revelation shows us this very thing: the abomination takes place in chapter 11, after the first 6 trumpet judgments.

 

Finally, it was about this that I heard from God. I mean, I heard what sounded like an audible voice. When I was reading this very verse, when my eyes and my mind got to the word "midst," He spoke and said "you could find this exact midpoint clearly marked in the book of Revelation." I asked Him how I would find that, and He told me. Then, almost as an afterthought, He said, "in fact, you could find the entire 70th week clearly marked." When He said that, He said more, but not in words: I can only describe it as a "download." I just knew the REASON I could find the entire 70th week "clearly marked" was that God used the SAME MARKER as the midpoint for the beginning and the end. (Red text added later; I did not get that point written the first time.)

 

To make a long story short, I found what He sent me to find, the midpoint clearly marked by a 7: the 7th trumpet. I immediately went to the 7th vial and read, "it is done." I knew that was the end. I flipped quickly to the 7th seal, and read of the 30 minutes of silence, and I knew that was the beginning.

 

I will admit, some commentaries show a very history view that all was finished in 60 AD when the temple was destroyed. I am convinced they are wrong.

 

Therefore I have NO DOUBT that the entire 70th week is still ahead of us. I have a GREAT advantage, for God Himself instructed me in this exact area. If God believes it is, that is good enough for me.

 

LAMAD

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  I will agree that John did not write that the two witnesses begin 3 1/2 days before the midpoint. But we can determine this by what John did write.

 

 

Please consider:

 

From the exact midpoint to the 7th vial that ends the week  will be 1260 days.

The city will be trampled 42 months, as shown in verses 1 & 2. This tells me the man of sin arrives in Jerusalem at this time. He MUST be in Jerusalem to enter the temple in Jerusalem, right? He comes with armies that will trample the city for 42 months. From this 42 months we know that verses 1 & 2 are VERY CLOSE to the midpoint. Maybe not to the exact day, but close enough to write 42 months. So perhaps a couple of days off from 1260? Would 3 1/2 days off be close enough to write 42 months?

 

If you understand that the "man of sin" arrives in Jerusalem at the same time as those Gentiles treading the city for 42 months, and that's also when the two witnesses will begin prophesying for 1260 days, then why haven't you understood that is the "middle" of the "one week" when all that begins?

 

The 3 trumpet-woe periods flow in chronological order, we can trust that order because our Lord Jesus attached those 3 Woe periods with those last 3 trumpets. As long as the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period is going on, that means it's that 42 months, 1260 days timing, and our Lord Jesus has not come yet, and won't until those 42 months, 1260 days are over with the ending of the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period.

 

 

The two witnesses show up to begin testifying AFTER the man of sin with his armies arrive in Jerusalem. it is written that they will testify for 1260 days. These days will PARALLEL the 42 months of trampling. Since they are starting their testimony just before the exact midpoint, that shows us they will die just before the 7th vial. Since John tells us they lay dead for 3 1/2 days, and then are raised, is is possible that they begin testifying 3 1/2 days before the midpoint and die 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial?

 

The vials are not mentioned in Rev.11. It's the trumpets/woes that are mentioned, though I do believe the 7th vial does parallel the timing of the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe. The 42 months, 1260 days flow all the way up to the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe period. The time differences of the 3 1/2 days is because the 42 months are given per lunar reckoning (months=moon), and the 1260 days (days=solar) are given per solar reckoning. It's a children of light vs. children of darkness association from other Scripture.

 

 

 

When we consider there is a great earthquake at the 7th vial, and a great earthquake when the two witnesses rise, is it possible that they are the very same earthquake? It is more than possible, it is VERY PROBABLE.

 

Yes, it is most probable the same great earthquake timing. But note Rev.11 says in the "same hour" the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe follows very quickly. Per the OT prophets it will be suddenly, at an instant.

 

 

Next, I consider WHO these two witnesses will be. I am convinced they are OLD TESTAMENT saints. Next, I consider WHEN the Old Testament saints rise. I puzzled over that question for years, until I discovered that when people long dead are raised to resurrection bodies that rising will CAUSE an earthquake. (See Matthew 27:  "the earth did quake....and the graves were opened.") That earthquake at the 7th vial will be caused by the righteous dead from the Old Testament rising. I also puzzled why the marriage and supper had to wait until AFTER the 70th week. It is because God will wait for the Old Testament saints to rise, for they will be GUESTS at the marriage.

 

Apostle Paul said the dead will be raised first, and those still alive on earth will be changed, "at the twinkling of an eye". Rev.1 says all eyes will see Christ coming in the clouds. It takes longer to describe these events than it will for them to occur, for it will come very quickly.

 

 

Since the two witnesses will be Old Testament saints, does it not make sense that they will rise with resurrection bodies with all the rest of the Old Testament saints? It does to me.

 

No one knows who they will be yet; there's only a lot of speculation.

 

 

 

Therefore, LOGIC tells me the two witnesses appear and begin testifying just 3 1/2 days before the midpoint, then testify for 1260 days, taking them to just 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial. they lay dead and will rise with the rest of the Old Testament saints at the 7th vial.

 

What part of this do you disagree with?

 

LAMAD

 

I don not agree with your mention of the 7th vial in that Rev.11 chapter, though I believe it is concurrent with the 7th trumpet. I do not accept there is a rapture prior to the 1260 days either. What you've said in this post is not the same things you've been saying in your previous posts.

 

You said the following in a previous post here...

 

LAMAD:

"1. The man of sin shows up, probably 3 1/2 days before the exact midpoint: 7th trumpet The city will be trampled for the next 42 months."

 

 

The "man of sin" shows up to mark... the midpoint of the "one week", with placing the abomination that makes desolate in the temple in Jerusalem, ending the daily sacrifice and oblation. You mention the "7th trumpet" right after that, which is too early per the Rev.11 reckoning. The 7th trumpet - 3rd woe happens at the end of the 42 months, at the end of the 3 1/2 days per Rev.11.

 

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  I will agree that John did not write that the two witnesses begin 3 1/2 days before the midpoint. But we can determine this by what John did write.

 

 

Please consider:

 

From the exact midpoint to the 7th vial that ends the week  will be 1260 days.

The city will be trampled 42 months, as shown in verses 1 & 2. This tells me the man of sin arrives in Jerusalem at this time. He MUST be in Jerusalem to enter the temple in Jerusalem, right? He comes with armies that will trample the city for 42 months. From this 42 months we know that verses 1 & 2 are VERY CLOSE to the midpoint. Maybe not to the exact day, but close enough to write 42 months. So perhaps a couple of days off from 1260? Would 3 1/2 days off be close enough to write 42 months?

 

If you understand that the "man of sin" arrives in Jerusalem at the same time as those Gentiles treading the city for 42 months, and that's also when the two witnesses will begin prophesying for 1260 days, then why haven't you understood that is the "middle" of the "one week" when all that begins?

 

I do understand that. Chapters 11 and 12 are MIDPOINT chapters. It is close to the middle (the 7th trumpet) but in reality it is 3 1/2 days BEFORE the middle when the two witnesses show up. This is shown by the very same earthquake when they rise as seen at the 7th vial, 1260 days after the exact midpoint. You still don't believe that the 7th trumpet MARKS the exact midpoint - but indeed it does.

 

The 3 trumpet-woe periods flow in chronological order, we can trust that order because our Lord Jesus attached those 3 Woe periods with those last 3 trumpets. As long as the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period is going on, that means it's that 42 months, 1260 days timing, and our Lord Jesus has not come yet, and won't until those 42 months, 1260 days are over with the ending of the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period.

 

This is NOT that complicated. The 6th trumpet sounds and then ENDS. Then the EVENTS of the 6th trumpet take place: the 1/3 of earth's population being killed. That is the END of the 6th trumpet. Then, AFTER the events of the 6th trumpet, OTHER EVENTS take place that are not associated with the 6th trumpet, except to say they come AFTER the 6th trumpet.  All of chapter 10 fits into this category, as events AFTER the 6th trumpet. The man of sin entering the city of Jerusalem with his armies fits this catigory: this will happen AFTER the 6th trumpet [and the 2nd woe] has come and gone. OF COURSE we can trust John's order, not only here but elsewhere.

 

our Lord Jesus has not come yet, and won't until those 42 months, 1260 days are over with the ending of the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period.

 

Get this straight: Jesus does not return until chapter 19, over 1260 days AFTER ALL the events of chapters 11 & 12 (except 11:4-13 - written as a parenthesis). These are MIDPOINT CHAPTERS and Jesus does NOT RETURN AT THE MIDPOINT. You are teaching false doctrine.

 

Jesus does NOT return in chapter 11 nor in chapter 12 nor any other chapter until John finishes the 70th week (chapter 16) and then the marriage in heaven (chapter 19). This theory is trying to make the 7th trumpet the coming of the Lord, when John makes it the MIDPOINT of the week. This theory is simply VERY WRONG. Why would anyone try to rearrange John's book and move Jesus coming to chapter 11? Always remember: the 7th trumpet sounds in heaven to mark the very moment in time when the man of sin enters the temple and declares that he is GOD. The man of sin shows up in Jerusalem 3 1/2 days before this event, and the two witnesses show up perhaps a few seconds after he does.

 

 

The two witnesses show up to begin testifying AFTER the man of sin with his armies arrive in Jerusalem. it is written that they will testify for 1260 days. These days will PARALLEL the 42 months of trampling. Since they are starting their testimony just before the exact midpoint, that shows us they will die just before the 7th vial. Since John tells us they lay dead for 3 1/2 days, and then are raised, is is possible that they begin testifying 3 1/2 days before the midpoint and die 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial?

 

The vials are not mentioned in Rev.11. It's the trumpets/woes that are mentioned, though I do believe the 7th vial does parallel the timing of the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe. The 42 months, 1260 days flow all the way up to the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe period. The time differences of the 3 1/2 days is because the 42 months are given per lunar reckoning (months=moon), and the 1260 days (days=solar) are given per solar reckoning. It's a children of light vs. children of darkness association from other Scripture.

 

WRONG! The 7th vial ENDS the week, while the 7th trumpet marks the MIDPOINT. This should be very easy to see just because the 7th trumpet is in chapter 11 while the 7th vial is in chapter 16. Again, this theory is attempting to rearrange John's book. No one  has any authority to do that, and rearranging is very close to adding to or taking away. WHY would anyone do that when God gives such a warning against it? Next, THERE IS NO NEED, for it is in perfect order as written: the 7th trumpet needs to stay right in chapter 11 where John wrote it, as a MIDPOINT event. There is NOT ONE WORD about a coming at the 7th trumpet.

 

Look, this is simple 5th grade arithmetic.  Suppose you start walking from a point exactly 3 1/2 miles East of the center of  New York city with your pet turtle, and your destination is  Miami OK - according to an online map, 1260 miles away.  Suppose you cover only one mile a day (remember your pet turtle). Therefore your trip  will take 1260 days. You  will testify to everyone you meet that the Kingdom of God on earth is at hand. Now, suppose you begin that trip just 3 1/2 days before the 7th trumpet will sound, marking THE EXACT MIDPOINT of the week.. You would arrive in Miami OK just 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial would be poured out.

 

Just a short 3 1/2 days after you begin, you read on your smart phone a news headline, the man of sin has just entered the temple and said he was GOD. (this is when the 7th trumpet will sound in heaven) Soon after you read a new headline that many in Israel have run on foot to the mountains, and the man of sin is chasing them with his armies. Maybe when you cross the border into Pennsylvania you read a headline about a prophet appearing to work along side of the man of sin. 

 

Suddenly the sky is filled with SOUND: you hear a voice of an angel in heaven warning that all should fear God and worship Him. Soon after another angel comes, warning of the fall of Babylon. Soon after that a third angel comes warning people NOT to take the mark, for all who take it will be guaranteed a spot in the lake of fire. You keep walking.

 

Perhaps around Ohio, you hear a headline that the police around the world are beginning to hunt down all those who refuse to accept the mark - just what the angel was warning about! (For this example, you are invisible and they cannot find you). Soon you see people captured and carried away in military looking vehicles. Perhaps it is half way to your destination now, and you have walked for 21 months. From the headlines you know that the days of GT are in full swing. As you get further along, perhaps near St Louis or Springfield Mo, you see that everyone you meet had terrible sores on their bodies. You know it is the first vial judgment.  Soon after you read a headline that the sea has turned to blood. You warn people that it won;t be long now, and Jesus will return to set up His kingdom. As you walk, and listen to the headlines, you see that all seven vials have been poured out as you near your destination: the end of the 1260 miles. 

 

Just as you see Miami OK ahead (the 7th vial), just 3 1/2 miles away, your 1260 miles are finished,  and suddenly one of the man who have been hunting down people that refuse the mark sees you, and shoots you dead. You have just taken a journey through time - the last half of the 70th week, sort of like one of the two witnesses.

 

See how easy this is? Did you not notice that in 11:2 those 42 months do not take place in that verse, and 12:3 is not 42 months later? Did you not notice that in 12:6 the 1260 days do not all take place in that verse, so that 12:7 is 1260 days later? Did you not notice that the 3 1/2 years in 12:14 do not take place in that verse, so that 12:15 is 3 1/2 years later?  Did you not notice that the 42 months of authority given in 13:5 does not all take place in that verse, so that 13:6 is 42 months later? No, all these counts BEGIN in the verse of mention. Verse 11:3 is exactly the same: the 1260 days are mentioned but do not all take place before 11:14 as you suppose. John takes the readers on a SIDE JOURNEY as a parenthesis. The TRUTH IS, Rev 11:14 is just 3 1/2 days after 11:1-3. The TRUTH is, the 7th trumpet will sound 3 1/2 days after the man of sin arrives as shown in 11:2. The 7th trumpet will sound to mark the exact midpoint just 3 1/2 days after the two witnesses show up and begin to testify. As you took your journey through time, your 1260 days walked you through the entire last half of the week, to just 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial ends the week. (You lay dead for those 3 1/2 days taking you to the very end of the 70th week.

 

 

 

When we consider there is a great earthquake at the 7th vial, and a great earthquake when the two witnesses rise, is it possible that they are the very same earthquake? It is more than possible, it is VERY PROBABLE.

 

Yes, it is most probable the same great earthquake timing. But note Rev.11 says in the "same hour" the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe follows very quickly. Per the OT prophets it will be suddenly, at an instant.

 

IF you agree that it is the same earthquake, then you know that the two witnesses testify for most of the last half of the week, and die just before the 7th vial. I suspect "in the same hour" means the two events do not happen at the same time. Good point.

 

 

Next, I consider WHO these two witnesses will be. I am convinced they are OLD TESTAMENT saints. Next, I consider WHEN the Old Testament saints rise. I puzzled over that question for years, until I discovered that when people long dead are raised to resurrection bodies that rising will CAUSE an earthquake. (See Matthew 27:  "the earth did quake....and the graves were opened.") That earthquake at the 7th vial will be caused by the righteous dead from the Old Testament rising. I also puzzled why the marriage and supper had to wait until AFTER the 70th week. It is because God will wait for the Old Testament saints to rise, for they will be GUESTS at the marriage.

 

Apostle Paul said the dead will be raised first, and those still alive on earth will be changed, "at the twinkling of an eye". Rev.1 says all eyes will see Christ coming in the clouds. It takes longer to describe these events than it will for them to occur, for it will come very quickly.

 

I suspect it will be less than a microsecond between the dead in Christ rising and those who are alive begin changed and rising. Most pretribbers do not think Jesus will be seen at Paul's rapture. I am not so sure. Of course all eyes will see Him at His Rev. 19 coming. I firmly believe that Jesus comes to get His bride before the 70th week begins.

 

 

Since the two witnesses will be Old Testament saints, does it not make sense that they will rise with resurrection bodies with all the rest of the Old Testament saints? It does to me.

 

No one knows who they will be yet; there's only a lot of speculation.  True.

 

 

 

Therefore, LOGIC tells me the two witnesses appear and begin testifying just 3 1/2 days before the midpoint, then testify for 1260 days, taking them to just 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial. they lay dead and will rise with the rest of the Old Testament saints at the 7th vial.

 

What part of this do you disagree with?

 

LAMAD

 

I don not agree with your mention of the 7th vial in that Rev.11 chapter, though I believe it is concurrent with the 7th trumpet. I do not accept there is a rapture prior to the 1260 days either. What you've said in this post is not the same things you've been saying in your previous posts.

 

I agree the 7th vial is not mentioned in chapter 11. I get there by counting the 1260 days from the time the two witnesses arrive, which is at the MIDPOINT. Of course if we count 1260 days from the midpoint, we arrive at the END. This should not be hard for anyone to see. How can you possibly see the 7th trumpet happening at the same time as the 7th vial? One marks the midpoint and one marks the END. These two will be 1260 days apart. Surely you notice there are 4 chapters (12, 13, 14, 15) between chapters 11 and 16? EVENTS happen between these two events. Again I remind you that you do not have any authority to rearrange what John has written. Again there is NOTHING about a coming at the 7th trumpet. 

 

As for the timing of the rapture, Paul is clear that the rapture comes as the TRIGGER for the start of the Day of His wrath, which John puts at the end of the 6th seal in chapter 6.  Therefore according to Paul the rapture MUST happen before then. It is no accident that John then SAW the raptured church in heaven shortly after that.

 

You said the following in a previous post here...

 

LAMAD:

"1. The man of sin shows up, probably 3 1/2 days before the exact midpoint: 7th trumpet The city will be trampled for the next 42 months."

 

I did say that and I stand behind it. The man of sin MUST arrive in Jerusalem before he is to enter the temple. that is simply logic. I believe He arrives about 3 1/2 days before and the two witnesses show up then because He has arrived.  And then 3 1/2 days later the 7th trumpet will sound marking the exact midpoint. Why is this difficult?

 

 

The "man of sin" shows up to mark... the midpoint of the "one week", with placing the abomination that makes desolate in the temple in Jerusalem, ending the daily sacrifice and oblation. You mention the "7th trumpet" right after that, which is too early per the Rev.11 reckoning. The 7th trumpet - 3rd woe happens at the end of the 42 months, at the end of the 3 1/2 days per Rev.11.

 

Here is where your theory falls apart. This is not at all the intent of the Author. There is no 42 months here! the COUNT of 42 months BEGINS here at 11:2. It is not completed here! Neither is the 1260 days completed in chapter 11, although it may seem that way at first. the journey through the Two witnesses time is written as a parenthesis and is not really fulfilled in chapter 11. IT IS ONLY MENTIONED in chapter 11. If ANYONE that can count, counts 1260 days from the midpoint, they will arrive at the END. Same with the 42 months. If anyone begins counting from 11:2 and counts 42 months, they will end at the 7th vial.  It is the 7th trumpet that MARKS the midpoint. The man of sin shows up (11:1-2) some few days before that. My guess is 3 1/2 days before, because that is when the two witnesses show up. Then, when the man of sin enters the temple and declares he is God, THEN the 7th trumpet will sound in heaven MARKING that event on earth.  By the way, the 3 1/2 days mentioned are real, 24 hour days.

 

Do you understand that all five mentions of the last half of the week run PARALLEL?

 

 

Do you understand a parenthesis? You can pull a parenthesis (a phrase inserted into a text to help explain the text) out of its setting and the setting reads perfectly as if the parenthesis were not there. Try reading 11:1 - 11:2 - 11:3 - 11:14 - 11:15 - 12:6  in that order. That is John's chronology. Verse 11:14 is to follow 11:3 immediately. there is no 1260 days  or 42 months in-between these two verses as so many imagine. Those verses are written as a parenthesis.  This way John goes straight from the man of sin and the two witnesses arriving just before the abomination  - to the abomination (7th trumpet)  - to those fleeing when then see the abomination. This is the TRUE chronology.

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Therefore I have NO DOUBT that the entire 70th week is still ahead of us. I have a GREAT advantage, for God Himself instructed me in this exact area. If God believes it is, that is good enough for me.

 

LAMAD

 

 

For the purpose of bible discussions its better to show your evidence from the bible. Even Jesus used this scriptural approach. So I don't find your last point compelling whatsoever, despite being sure that in other areas God would communicate with you directly.

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