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dscapp

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But God knowing what wiill happen doesn't mean that no one has free will.  God knew what you would choose to eat for breakfast or if you would even eat breakfast.  But that knowledge doesn't force you to make any particular choice.

 

But I'm not talking about breakfast. I'm talking about hell. Breakfast isn't a horrible place of judgment. Free will is the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine forces. But it is determined by divine forces because God is divine and is also omnipotent and omniscient.

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God has the ability to look through time as we know it and see what our choices will be.  We, on the other hand, had not made the choices yet, so we don't.  Just because He knows and we don't does not exclude the fact that we will still be faced with a choice and the options that come with a choice.  People try to make this far too difficult.

 

But if God knows we are going to make bad choices in life, why doesn't he do anything to stop us.

 

 

Than that wold no longer be free will, would it?

 

Why does the great white throne exist if he already knows who is going to hell.

That is a question you will have to ask Him. I would think it would be because there will be some who are 100% they will be going to heaven due to their false religion that do not know they are going to be judged in such a manner. Having your life read back to you will highlight why they did not make it.

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Guest LadyC

 

You have to have a basic understanding of God and eternity to see that there is no determinism or predestiny in the way you are thinking.

I can try to explain it to you, if you like, but it would take me awhile to write it out, and I do not want to go to the trouble if you are not interested. The short answer, though, I have already posted above.

 

I'm interested. Please explain.

 

He won't FORCE us to make better choices, because He would rather us make bad choices than to force Himself on us. 

 

that is the definition of free will. through my eyes, there's no illusion at all.

 

Ok, he won't force us to make better choices, but he sits back and watches?

 

An no the mother and God are not the same, the mother isn't omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent.

 

 

God will only act in direct response to prayer. if your little old grandmother is praying for you, God's going to intervene and do what He can to put you back on the right path... everything short of forcing His will on you.  He knows whether His intervention in your life will turn you around or not, but it won't stop Him from trying to persuade you.

 

and true, a mother is not omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. but she knows her child. and the Father knows His children... each of them. the real difference between a human parent and our heavenly Father is that God KNOWS, because He's already seen the future. a mother knows based only on the child's past.

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Guest LadyC

let me back pedal a bit. God does act on His own at times, not just in response to prayer. This can be seen in the OT stores about the patriarchs... abraham, for instance, who was the first "jew", so to speak. He didn't know anyone who knew God. and yet God called Him out of his life, out of his family, out of his whole culture.

 

but most of the time His intervention is in direct response to prayer.

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Than that wold no longer be free will, would it?

 

So he just let's people die nonbelievers? But then again God knew John Smith would die a nonbeliever.

 

That is a question you will have to ask Him. I would think it would be because there will be some who are 100% they will be going to heaven due to their false religion that do not know they are going to be judged in such a manner. Having your life read back to you will highlight why they did not make it.

 

But a person only knows God exists if the Father draws them in. If I were a nonbeliever at the great white throne then I would ask God why he didn't draw me in to salvation!

 

God will only act in direct response to prayer. if your little old grandmother is praying for you, God's going to intervene and do what He can to put you back on the right path... everything short of forcing His will on you.  He knows whether His intervention in your life will turn you around or not, but it won't stop Him from trying to persuade you.

 

and true, a mother is not omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. but she knows her child. and the Father knows His children... each of them. the real difference between a human parent and our heavenly Father is that God KNOWS, because He's already seen the future. a mother knows based only on the child's past.

 

God will only act in direct response to prayer only if it aligns with his will. What if it's God's will for the grandson to not repent.

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for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believes in Him would not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

not "God so loved only those who He knew would repent".

 

God so loved THE WORLD.

 

and yes, He just "lets" people die unbelievers... because He won't FORCE them to love Him. He gave them the freedom to NOT love Him... the consequence of which is eternity without Him. 

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Than that wold no longer be free will, would it?

 

So he just let's people die nonbelievers? But then again God knew John Smith would die a nonbeliever.

 

Yes, He does allow people to make their own choice. We read in scripture that "He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." The "whoever believes in Him should" is the free will choice He gives all.

 

 

That is a question you will have to ask Him. I would think it would be because there will be some who are 100% they will be going to heaven due to their false religion that do not know they are going to be judged in such a manner. Having your life read back to you will highlight why they did not make it.

 

But a person only knows God exists if the Father draws them in. If I were a nonbeliever at the great white throne then I would ask God why he didn't draw me in to salvation!

 

God has made Himself known to every human through His creation, as we can see in Romans 1:18-23

 

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

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Yeah but they really don't have a choice because of their geographical location in the Bible.

 

Certain men were born to fulfill certain prophecy. Psalm 83 was written well over 2,000 years ago.

 

Sure they have the choice. The Lord knows what their choice is in advance so He is able to have that be prophetic. But it is nonetheless their free choice.

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not because of who they are or where they live, but because of whom they chose to serve. God knew this would happen from the beginning of time. He still gives them the choice...

 

I don't understand. If God writes it down before it happens how are they given free will. God already wrote in Psalm 83 that Muslims would be the enemy of God 2,000 years later. If the Muslims repented that would make God a liar. Muslims not repenting is what is suppose to happen. It is because of who they are and where they live.

 

 

 

Do you have children? 

 

If you give your 4 yr old a choice of cake or spinach, what will happen? You know that your child will choose cake. Is it any less the choice of that child just because you know the outcome?

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not because of who they are or where they live, but because of whom they chose to serve. God knew this would happen from the beginning of time. He still gives them the choice...

 

I don't understand. If God writes it down before it happens how are they given free will. God already wrote in Psalm 83 that Muslims would be the enemy of God 2,000 years later. If the Muslims repented that would make God a liar. Muslims not repenting is what is suppose to happen. It is because of who they are and where they live.

 

There is the “decretive” will of GOD; that will by which GOD decrees things to come to pass according to His supreme sovereignty. By it, GOD brings to pass whatsoever He wills. When GOD sovereignly decrees something in this sense, nothing can prevent it from coming to pass. When GOD commanded the light to shine, the darkness had no power to resist the command. The “lights” came on. GOD did not persuade the light to shine, He did not negotiate with elemental powers to form a universe. He did not achieve a plan of redemption by trial and error; the Cross was not a cosmic accident GOD exploited. These things were decreed absolutely – sovereignly decreed.

Now, GOD works His plan through means, via the real choices of willing and acting creatures. There are secondary as well as primary causes. To deny this is to embrace a determination that eliminates human freedom and dignity which would violate the very character of GOD. Yet GOD is sovereign, His will is greater than ours. His will restricts our will. Our will cannot restrict His will. When He decrees something sovereignly, it will come to pass-whether we like it or not, whether we choose it or not. He is sovereign, we are subordinate.

When the Bible speaks of the will of GOD, it does not always mean the decretive will of GOD. The decretive will of GOD cannot be broken or disobeyed. It will come to pass. On the other hand there is a will that can be broken, the “preceptive” will of GOD. The preceptive will of GOD is found in His Law. The precepts, statutes and commandments that He delivers to His people make up the preceptive will. They express and reveal to us what is right and proper for us to do. The preceptive will is GOD’s will of righteousness for our lives. By this rule we are governed. It is the will of GOD that we not sin. It is the will of GOD that we have no other gods before Him, etc. Yet the world is filled with sin. The preceptive will of GOD is violated whenever His law is broken.

With respect to GOD’s sovereign will, we assume we are passive. With respect to His preceptive will, we know that we are active and therefore responsible and accountable. It is easier to pass off our sin on GOD. That is the spirit of the anti-Christ. So, those who choose to oppose Israel, those nations and peoples who will bring about Psalm 83 and Ezekiel 38-39 are fulfilling GOD's decretive will through disobedience of GOD's preceptive will. GOD's preceptive will for them is that they all be saved while His decretive will is that the prophesy be fulfilled. It is their choice whether to choose GOD or Allah. Free will.

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