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dscapp

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Guest Butero

That is an interesting way of putting it, but if Jesus is the savior of the world, then everyone in the world would be saved, and they are not.  It still doesn't really give us an absolute answer to the question.  Those who believe in pre-destination would say that while in theory, Jesus' sacrifice on the cross is sufficient to save everyone, only those pre-destined to accept him will be saved, while those who don't believe in pre-destination would say his blood is sufficient to save everyone, but all won't choose to accept him as their Lord and savior.  He still leaves it up to the individual to accept or reject him. 

 

I believe I am making my own decisions throughout the day, however, when I know that God knew me before he formed me in my Mother's womb, as is seen in the example of Jeremiah, and I know God is all knowing, so he knew exactly what decisions I would make day in and day out, in that way, free will is an illusion.  I am still going to do exactly what I was created to do, as will everyone else, all the way to the final day of our life.  The only way we could really have free will, is if God deliberately chooses not to know what we are going to do, but I know that is not the case because of the example of how Jesus knew what Peter would do in denying him three times.   

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Guest shiloh357

dscapp, I fully understand where you are coming from.  It is hard for people to comprehend the idea that God would create some people for destruction and others to be saved.  It is hard for people to believe God would intentionally create vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor, and all serve a purpose, but that is just what he did.  It is right there throughout the Bible.  I couldn't accept that for years, but after awhile, I had to accept what was right before my eyes. 

 

This is another of those "hot button" topics that we will never all agree on.  Just don't let people get you discouraged by belittling you.  I don't think the problem is that you are not teachable.  I think God is teaching you.  At first, I wasn't even going to come back in here, but I think that one comment was uncalled for, and I just want you to know that at least one person understands the point you are making. 

The reason we don't believe that notion is because the Bbile doesn't say that.  That view is based on your poor exegesis of Romans 9.   Romans 9 is about God choosing whom he will use for what purpose He has chosen.   Romans 9 is about service, not salvation.   It isn't talking about God choosing to create people to destroy them.  IN fact for you to say such a thing is  a direct assault on God's character. 

 

Romans 9 is Paul's defense of God's sovereign choice to use people in certain ways to affect His will in the earth.  Paul is defending God's choice to cause a blindness to come upon Israel to facilitate the inclusion of the Genitles.  Paul draws on the metaphor of the potter who can fashion the clay to be whatever he wants, be it a high end vase that sits in Buckingham Palace or a common cereal bowl.   it's God's choice to use whom he will in whatever capacity.

 

The Bible nowhere says that God creates people to be destroyed.  That is not what Romans 9 says at all.   Pharaoh was a vessel fit for destruction AFTER he chose to harden His heart.  Pharaoh was irretrievably wicked, not because God made Him that way, but because his heart was turned to destruction.   God gave him over to His rebellion that condition made him fit for destruction.

 

To argue that God creates people to be so sinful that He has to destroy them is heretical to the core.  I don't mean that as a pejorative;  I mean that in the pure theological/historical sense of the word.  You are promoting a genuine heresy in that it makes God responsible for sin.  It contradicts the doctrine of the holiness of God that God actually wants some people to be sinful and makes sure that they will be sinful enough that He has to destroy them.   God would be unjust to make someone sinful and thus compromise His holiness and at the same time on the grounds of Holiness, destroy the sinner he made to be sinful.   It is simply not an internally consistent view of God and any genuine follower of Jesus should reject your position for heretical attack on God's holiness that it is.

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1. That is an interesting way of putting it, but if Jesus is the savior of the world, then everyone in the world would be saved, and they are not.  It still doesn't really give us an absolute answer to the question.  Those who believe in pre-destination would say that while in theory, Jesus' sacrifice on the cross is sufficient to save everyone, only those pre-destined to accept him will be saved, while those who don't believe in pre-destination would say his blood is sufficient to save everyone, but all won't choose to accept him as their Lord and savior.  He still leaves it up to the individual to accept or reject him. 

 

2. I believe I am making my own decisions throughout the day, however, when I know that God knew me before he formed me in my Mother's womb, as is seen in the example of Jeremiah, and I know God is all knowing, so he knew exactly what decisions I would make day in and day out, in that way, free will is an illusion.  I am still going to do exactly what I was created to do, as will everyone else, all the way to the final day of our life.  The only way we could really have free will, is if God deliberately chooses not to know what we are going to do, but I know that is not the case because of the example of how Jesus knew what Peter would do in denying him three times.

 

1. No, that is not true.  They are given a choice to accept salvation.  Your statement sound more like Universalism, not free will choice.

 

2. Romans 8:29 clearly states the process pertaining to predestination.

For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

First, God foreknew, meaning He looked down through time and saw our choice toward accepting salvation. Those whom He knew would accept, He predestined to conform to the image of Jesus, meaning that before we were born, He gave His stamp of approval. They have to work together, not against each other.  God also knows who will reject salvation, which is why there will be a Great White Throne judgment.

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The Lord knows what their choice is in advance so He is able to have that be prophetic. But it is nonetheless their free choice.

 

There's always a 'but' in all your guys sentences. Why the but????? No I have no children, and thank God for that.

 

No "but" in my sentences. The "but" is the choice, my friend, in those that do.

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Where's the free will in Islamic nations if they're only here to fulfill Psalm 83 prophecy, then die and go to hell. 2 Peter 3:9 doesn't make sense.

 

Firstly, how can you demonstrate that Psalm 83 is a prophecy of the ongoing conflict between Israel and the Arab nations? If you insist on 'Israel' being a reference to the physical nation in existence today surely if you are going to be consistant you must also insist in the enemy being the confederacy of Edom, Ishmael, Moab, the Hagrites, Gebal, Ammon, Amalek, Philistia, Tyre and Assyria.  

 

Secondly, what has 2 Pet 3 9 got to do with this? 

 

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. (2Pe 3:9 NKJ)

 

There is so much assumption about what Peter is saying here!

 

However to quickly trace the pronouns through Peter's words will clearly identify the 'us' and the 'all' he is referring to - and it isn't all people everywhere who have ever lived. No, peter is saying that God does not desire that of his people will perish. Which again, with just a few moments careful contemplation becomes quite obvious. Think about the following:

 

(a) If Peter was saying that God doesn't want anyone at all to perish then God is not really that powerful, there are some who he wants to save but it is beyond to achieve their salvation, the end result of such thinking must be to conclude that in eternity to come God will be sad because some whom he wished to save have perished.

(b) If God desires  all people everywhere who have ever lived to be saved why does he allow so many to die having never heard the gospel and therefore having never had an opportunity to repent?  

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First, God foreknew, meaning He looked down through time and saw our choice toward accepting salvation.

 

This right here is what I'm having trouble accepting. We are not saying that a random mother from North Dakota looked down through time and saw our choices, we are saying that God looked down. GOD who is all powerful and all knowing. If God can move the Red sea for Moses, why can't he save every single person he ever created since the beginning of time. If God foreknew then doesn't that make him half responsible for at least drawing people in to salvation. Like if the mother saw her child walking out into the street the mother wouldn't just sit on the porch and watch her child die. The mother would run out in the street to try to save her child. But the way you're putting it is like saying, the mother just sits on the porch and watches her child die because the child has free will, oh well. What kind of will is that, in which God had created. Everyone keeps talking about God's will God's will, his plan for life. What kind of plan is that. John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

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Guest LadyC

when a mother LOVES her child, as the child grows up, she allows him to learn from his mistakes. once the child is an adult, the mother who LOVES her child will sit quietly in the background while allowing her adult child to make decisions and choices, even if those choices break her heart... even if those choices are self destructive and will lead to her child's death. because a mother who LOVES her child will not FORCE him to behave according to HER morals and standards.

 

our Heavenly Father LOVES each person He created. He loves them so much that HE sent His own child to be persecuted, beaten, betrayed and killed in the most horrible, torturous way imaginable so that NO precious creation of His would have to spent eternity in Hell. and then He loved each precious creation so much that He made sure every single one of us would know who He is, one way or another. He loves each person ever born so much that not a SINGLE ONE has ever been denied the opportunity to accept His gift of eternal life.

 

and then He loves each of us so much that He promised never to force us to love Him back against our will, no matter how self destructive our choices are, no matter how deeply it hurts Him to see us reject the gift of life.

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Guest shiloh357

 

First, God foreknew, meaning He looked down through time and saw our choice toward accepting salvation.

 

This right here is what I'm having trouble accepting. We are not saying that a random mother from North Dakota looked down through time and saw our choices, we are saying that God looked down. GOD who is all powerful and all knowing. If God can move the Red sea for Moses, why can't he save every single person he ever created since the beginning of time. If God foreknew then doesn't that make him half responsible for at least drawing people in to salvation. Like if the mother saw her child walking out into the street the mother wouldn't just sit on the porch and watch her child die. The mother would run out in the street to try to save her child. But the way you're putting it is like saying, the mother just sits on the porch and watches her child die because the child has free will, oh well. What kind of will is that, in which God had created. Everyone keeps talking about God's will God's will, his plan for life. What kind of plan is that. John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

 

Sure God could override everyone's will and just "save" everyone.   He could say, "you will accept my love whether you want to or not."   In human terms, we call that rape.

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Sure God could override everyone's will and just "save" everyone.   He could say, "you will accept my love whether you want to or not."   In human terms, we call that rape.

 

But it's not rape. Rape is the result of sinful men or women forcing. Jesus was sinless. The love of a sinful man and rape cannot be compared to heavenly sinless love.

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Guest LadyC

it is a valid comparison. 

 

rape is the result of a sinful person forcing his or her self upon another. it is sin.

 

Jesus was sinless. therefore Jesus does not force Himself upon another.

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