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Joshua David

How the study of Salvation impacted my study of the Endtimes

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When I was young, my mom carried me to different churches, looking for one that felt 'right' to her.  She took me to different kinds of denominations, and I sat and listened to what all these preachers had to say.  The one thing I understood for sure was that all these churches taught something different and they all thought it was correct.  The reason that they all thought it was correct, was because they all 'proved' their position by scripture.  They would  use this scripture and that scripture, and they all seemed to make really good points.  Needless to say, I was confused.  How could the same bible be used to 'prove' different things.  So I stopped accepting what other people taught about the bible, and started studying it for myself.  I would still listen to what people were saying, I started reading the entire chapter of the scriptures so that I could get the context of what was being said.  I started doing word studies on the scriptures, so that I understood what the scripture meant in the original language that it was spoken or written. But most of all, I started to form my own opinions, that were based on my own study, and stopped relying on other people's interpretation.  Because what I discovered, was that EVERYONE had their own interpretation, EVERYONE believed that the Holy Spirit led them to 'their' conclusion, and very few were actually honest enough to admit even the possibility that what they believed could be wrong.  They believed what they believed, and everyone else was wrong.


One of the topics that came up most often was the subject of salvation.  Some churches believed that you could lose your salvation, ( and had scriptures to 'prove' it ) and other churches were equally convinced that you could not lose your salvation ( and had scriptures to 'prove' it. )  What I found was that the churches that believed you could lose your salvation NEVER talked about the scriptures that seemed to indicate otherwise.  They never addressed them, they never explained them, they never quoted them, and most of the christians that went to the church never even knew that those scriptures were in the bible.  The exact same thing could be said for the churches that believed that you could not lose your salvation.  And what end up happening is that most Christians could 'parrot' what their church believed, and could quote scripture supporting their position, but very few could actually defend what they believed.  They couldn't explain how those 'troubling' verses ( the ones used to support a different position ) fit into what they believed.


So I am going to start a series of topics that have led me to my conclusions on the end times.  I am going to try not only show how I arrived at my conclusions, but will try to show how those 'troubling" verses fit into what I believe.  The reason that I put this topic here is because all of these subjects led me to the conclusion that the pretrib rapture is true, and that is the central point to this series.


So now that the intro is complete lets' get started....


Salvation.  There is probably not another topic that has been more divisive than this one.  This topic has been debated throughout the entire church history.  If you have never taken the time to really study the history of the doctrine of Salvation I highly encourage you, because it is a fascinating study.  It would surprise some people to learn that what is believed about salvation today is not what the church had always taught.  But that is outside the scope of this thread.  I want to talk about how my understanding of salvation affects my understanding of the timing of the rapture.


Let's start with the big question.  Once you become saved, can you lose your salvation?  The one question has divided more Christians than any other topic in history.  Why?  Well let me ask you a question?  Does the bible contain verses that seem to indicate that you can lose your salvation?  YES it does.  Does the bible contain verses that seem to indicate that you can not lose your salvation?  YES it does. And we are going to look at both groups.


Let's look at the verses that defend OSAS first.  


1 Cor 1:21-22 21 Now he which establisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;

22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.


Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


Eph 4:30  And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.


John 10:27-29  27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

And first verses really clinched it for me when I was studying this topic.  Consider this question.  Who is the responsible party in us standing firm in Christ?   If you can lose your salvation, then the question is obviously We are the responsible party.  If you can't lose your salvation, then the answer is God is the responsible party.  And the scripture clearly says that God is the responsible party.  Not only that but consider verse 22 in Eph 1.  God seals us with his Spirit.  And the Spirit is the "earnest".  What is the earnest?  The original word that Paul used was the Greek word arrabon.  Arrabon means money which is purchases is given as a pledge or downpayment that the full amount will subsequently be paid.  Now I ask you, who makes the pledge?  Us or God?  So let me paraphrase just a little.  It is God that annoints us, it is God that seals us, it is God that makes us stand fast in Christ, it is God that pledges to complete the purchase.  When is it completed?  Eph 4:30 tells us, the day of redemption.   When is that?  At the rapture.  So what is the security of our salvation based on?  Us or God?  It is God.  He is the one that made the pledge.  He is the one that sealed us, He is the one that promises to complete our redemption.  


In the next post I will discuss the scriptures that deal with people losing their salvation.


As Iron sharpens Iron.


Joshua David


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In my last post, I posted some of the scriptures that I believe prove that once we are saved, our salvation is secure because it is based on the promises of God, not on our behavior.  In this post I will explore some of the scriptures that indicate that you can lose your salvation.


One of the interesting things is that the bible does not talk about being saved in the Old Testament in the same sense as it does in the New Testament.  Whenever the bible uses the word saved in the Old Testament it is talking about their physical life being saved.  But as we often find, what is external and physical in the Old Testament becomes internal and spiritual in the New.   


While the Old Testament doesn't really talk about salvation, it does talk about God expectation of obedience to the Law for the Children of Israel.  If you did not obey the Law, or failed to bring a suitable sacrifice when you did sin, then you were cut off from the Children of Israel, and were forbidden to partake of the blessings of Israel.


So are there scriptures in the New Testament that seem to indicate that you can lose your salvation?  Yes there are, and ironically enough, Jesus talked more about losing your salvation than any other person in the New Testament.


Let's look a just a few examples....     Matt 24:13  But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.


Also let's consider the parable of the 10 virgins.  Because of space, I won't type the entire parable, but just the highlights....  All 10 virgins start with oil in their lamps.  All ten virgins fall sleep.  When the call came in that the Bridegroom was coming, the five wise virgins, who maintained their supply of oil were allowed to enter the wedding feast.  The five foolish, who let their supply of oil run out was not allowed to enter the wedding feast.  


There are some others but these two are the two strongest arguments that is always used to support the idea that you can lose your salvation.  So let's take a closer look at both of these.


Matt 24 is often referred to as the little apocalypse, since it gives such a good summary of the Book of Revelations.  Almost the entire chapter is Jesus' reply to his disciples questions concerning the endtime, his second coming, and the end of the age.  We start in verse 4-8 with the birth pains, then increase in lawlessness, and starting at verse 15 it talks about the abomination of desolation.  When happens in the middle of the tribulation.  Then we get to the Second Coming of Christ.  Right in the middle of all this we have that little verse that states he who endures until the end shall be saved.  


Based on my first post, I think everyone knows that I believe that during this current age, once a person is saved, their salvation is secure, and I believe that the evidence of this is very very strong.  But Jesus says here that only he who endures until the end will be saved.  This shows a great fundamental shift.  As great a fundamental shift as when we moved from the Age of Law to the Age of Grace.  The entire context of Matt 24 is the Tribulation period up until the Second coming.  Therefore it shows that during the Tribulation period, the Age of Grace, and the promise of eternal security is not in effect.  Therefore, since we are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption, ( rapture) then the only way that all these verses can be true is that the day of redemption ( the rapture ) happens before the Tribulation period, and this is why the Saints must endure until the end to be saved.


The very next chapter Matt 25 starts out with the parable of the 10 virgins.  There are a lot of commentaries out there that suggest that this parable is about the church.  I disagree.  Again for the same reasons as above.  Matt 24 and 25 are about the time of the tribulation.  The virgins are not the bride, we would call them bridesmaids today.  These are the tribulation saints.  In fact the one thing that no one should question is the timing of this parable, it is the second coming.  Yes, I agree that all 10 virgins had oil to start with, they were all 'saved' but the wise maintained their oil, while the foolish did not.  This parable is about the fundamental shift in the conditions of salvation during the tribulation period vs the conditions of salvation during the church age.  Therefore the church age must come to a close ( day of redemption ) before this parable takes place ( the Tribulation preceeding the second coming of Jesus ) 


As Iron sharpens Iron, 


Joshua David



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This thread is Locked.


Hello Joshua, 


I left your first post open when you started the thread, hoping that you would give other members the time to reply 

and therefore have a discussion. 


Please keep in mind that we all do a bit of teaching in what we write, but teaching in general is not allowed on the boards or in the chat room.

Only those who are in Worthy Ministry are allowed to teach.

If you had an answer all along and through your questioning, you were leading up to what you believe.

This is teaching.

The questions are not necessary when you already have an answer in mind.

Present your thoughts first and open it up for a discussion.

That is the difference between teaching and discussing.

If we allowed every member to "teach", imagine what sort of teaching we would find.


Please re word your thread and then re post it. 


Open it up for discussion and allow other members to reply and join in with the discussion. 


God Bless.



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