tsth Posted August 8, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 297 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 5,586 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 193 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/09/2002 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 8, 2014 I agree Goldeneagle, But, some things are pretty obvious....I'm surprised that as the church we haven't gotten hold of how to even deal with these issues. In studying 1 Thess 4: 3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; 4 that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, 5 not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God; 6 that no one should take advantage of and defraud his brother in this matter, because the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also forewarned you and testified. 7 For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness. Sexual Immorality is a BIG issue, even in Paul's day, and there was no question in regard to how to stand in this issue....but we just don't deal with it...which is why it is so rampant today. Here are few of the verses in regard to how clearly it is viewed: Ephesians 5:3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. Col 3:4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory. 5 Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, 7 in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them. 8 But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. 9 Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, 10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, And Romans 1 speaks of the wrath of God again, in the Chapter that addresses homosexuality. The issue of fornication is a big one in the NT, yet the NT church of today is not addressing it and how to deal with it IN THE CHURCH! Why not? This is like the pink elephant in the room, especially if you ask your church young adults, if they know what to do with a "brother" who is practicing this...if not themselves. How do they deal with it, if no one is even admitting it exists withiin their own body? It has to be addressed. In His Love, Suzanne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qnts2 Posted August 8, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,875 Content Per Day: 0.71 Reputation: 1,336 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/13/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted August 8, 2014 The way I view Eph. 4:11-14 the passage is talking about equipping church leaders for the purpose of discipleship in ministry. In my view, Eph 4:11-14 is not about equipping church leaders. It is about equipping saints, which would be all Christians. Sorry I don't do KJV too well. It just boggles my mind with old English. Here's the ESV for comparison: Ephesians 4:11-14 (ESV) 11 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers,12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, 14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. The KJV uses the term “perfecting”. The Greek implies correcting in all that is deficient, instructing and completing in number and all parts. Eph. 4:12 (KJV) 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Perhaps I misspoke or didn't clearly communicate what I was trying to say. The passage is referring to church leaders (vs 11) equipping Believers (vs 12). So to equip, correct that which is deficient, instruct, and complete are all things leaders in the Church do for and with the saints. How? Through apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds, and teacher (in other words leaders). Would you agree from that perspective? I guess that the way I see it anyway. Either way while it's important it's not a savlation issue Even the term “the ministry” here in verse 12 can and I believe does mean the office of the ministry – bishops/pastors & elders/deacons. God bless, GE Yes, we agree that the leaders are to train/equip the saints, to do the work of the ministry. Now, I do not believe ministry in those verses refers to 'office of ministry' limiting it to bishops/pastors or elders/deacons. Ministry, ministering, is not a 'leadership' position, and all saints have a calling, a work, a ministry. One such ministry would be evangelizing. Another would be encouraging. Another would be teaching. Another might be helps. These are all ministries. I compare it to teachers teach, so others can have the knowledge to do. Typically, teachers are not the actual doers. They train the people who will do the work of the ministry. At one point, I looked at the various verses in the NT which referred to the saints as perfect or perfected. I found it confusing as in my view, only God is perfect but scripture was saying saints are to be perfect or are perfected already. Perfect is often used when the intended meaning is complete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsth Posted August 9, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 297 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 5,586 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 193 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/09/2002 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 9, 2014 I also want to add that I find it interesting that one of the "other taboo" topics is in this Scripture. 1 Cor. 5:3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore "put away from yourselves the evil person." Along with breaking fellowship, we do not understand the biblical principle of making "right judgements". John 7:24 Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment." In His Love, Suzanne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 I have no idea if my church practices this. I have never seen it expressed, and in the churches I have been in, I have never known it to come up. I imagine that people who sin in this way, keep it secret and do not tend to get caught. If I had to guess, I imagine that the churches I have attended would be confrontational to the one(s) involved, perhaps one one one first, then two or three, then if still no repentance, before the whole body, and disfellowshipping being the final outcome if still no repentance. Of course, I only attend bible beleiving felloswships, and a body that does not practice the bible, does not really beleive the bible, in my opinion. If my church failed to pratice this practice, and allowed sexual sin to persist among it's members, I would leave it. What concerns me though is that my perception about some Christians and some local bodies, is that somehow, they feel a need to point out how horrible homosexual sin is, and then fail to make an equal point that sex outside of marriage, is a sin, whether it is of homosexual nature or not. Surely even the world can see the hypocrisy of that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsth Posted August 9, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 297 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 5,586 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 193 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/09/2002 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 9, 2014 What concerns me though is that my perception about some Christians and some local bodies, is that somehow, they feel a need to point out how horrible homosexual sin is, and then fail to make an equal point that sex outside of marriage, is a sin, whether it is of homosexual nature or not. Surely even the world can see the hypocrisy of that! I completely agree with that........and believe it is total hypocrisy. In His Love, Suzanne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsth Posted August 9, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 297 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 5,586 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 193 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/09/2002 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 9, 2014 I'll make this a bit more uncomfortable for us Christians...........what do you do personally with a brother or sister in Christ who is not in the church building(body), but in the Christian body, who is in sexual sin? Look, here's the thing..........I know from my young adult kids, that sexual sin is rampant among the young singles in the church today........and I really want to know why it's not being dealt with within the body, by those who are not practicing sexual sin? I know why not..........it's HARD to do. Just ask my dd. She's come under such fire for holding a brother in Christ accountable for his behavior, and rather than go to him regarding his sin, her college leader is angry with her for breaking fellowship with the brother/friend. This should not be happening within the body, but the truth of the matter is that no one is teaching this doctrine, so that the young adult leaders are abiding by it in the young adult groups. These leaders are very uncomfortable with having to do this, because the church leadership is negligent on this teaching, thus the wrong person is beling labeled as "judgmental" when in fact she is wanting the church leadership to abide in the doctrine of Christ. So, are you personally dealing with known blatant practiced sin, in a brother/sister, by breaking fellowship? In His Love, Suzanne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsth Posted August 10, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 297 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 5,586 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 193 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/09/2002 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 10, 2014 I know it's not a popular topic, but sexual immorality in the church is a huge issue today...that has to be addressed. 1 Thess. 4:3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; 4 that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, 5 not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God; (it sets us apart from the unbelievers) In His Love, Suzanne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alien224 Posted August 10, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 82 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,762 Content Per Day: 0.38 Reputation: 869 Days Won: 2 Joined: 08/09/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/24/1964 Share Posted August 10, 2014 If this was practiced at most churches today no one would b allowed to attend even the church staff.The church as a whole is very worldly influenced. Sorry to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsth Posted August 10, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 297 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 5,586 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 193 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/09/2002 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 10, 2014 Even more reason to bring this doctrine to light. :-( Ephesians 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. In His Love, Suzanne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsth Posted August 11, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 297 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 5,586 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 193 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/09/2002 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 11, 2014 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company Strongs #4874 Original Word Word Origin sunanamivgnumi from (4862) and a compound of (303) and (3396) Transliterated Word TDNT Entry Sunanamignumi 7:852,1113 Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech soon-an-am-ig'-noo-mee Verb Definition to mix up together to keep company with, be intimate with one King James Word Usage - Total: 3 company with 1, keep company 1, have company with 1 2 And ye are puffed up , and have not rather mourned , that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. 13 But them that are without God judgeth . Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person. Strongs #1808 Original Word Word Origin ejxaivrw from (1537) and (142) Transliterated Word TDNT Entry Exairo None Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech ex-ah'-ee-ro Verb Definition to lift up or take away out of a place to remove King James Word Usage - Total: 2 take away 1, put away 1 In His Love, Suzanne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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