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Polarized

 

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. Matthew 10:34

 

And Fault

 

But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death. Proverbs 8:36

 

And When Has Modern Western Science Had Anything To Do With The Truth Anyway

 

Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault at all. John 18:38

 

I Ask

 

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6

 

Hum....

 

For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels. Luke 9:26

 

~

 

The situation is pretty polarized right now and it's unfortunate.

 

While I think at this point both sides are at fault,

 

and with the new atheist thing in the last decade perhaps it is worse from the scientific community due to that influence,

 

I think it makes sense for the Christian community to figure out a way to bridge it.

 

It does mean the gospel is not really being communicated to a profession of people,

 

at least not nearly as effectively as it could be.

 

 

:thumbsup:

 

The

 

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

 

The same was in the beginning with God.

 

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. John 1:1-3

 

Great Light

 

In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

 

And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. John 1:4-5

 

Again Shines Over A Bright New Earth

 

And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever. Revelation 22:5

 

And It Seems To Me

 

Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. Hebrews 11:3

 

That I Am So

 

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Hebrews 11:6

 

Blessed

 

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17

 

Western Science has a lot to do with truth. When you see how successful your physical theories are at making specific predictions, and then using them to design technology that couldn't even be imagined a mere century before, it is very compelling to think you are onto something important and deep about the world. More than that though, western science developed first with believers. It was only in the 20th C (for physics anyway), that a link was made between being very good in your scientific field and being a skeptic about God in some sense. There's no intrinsic reason that should be that way and that is my point. A series of historical happenings led to the current alignment of unbelief and the sciences, 'conservative' Christianity and skepticism of science (and even anti-intellectualism in a wider fashion). Whether or not you think young earth creationism is definitely the case, I am convinced there are far more effective ways of reaching these various communities with the gospel than what is being done right now. How many people bother to take up Paul's methodology and speak to these groups in language that has maximal clarity?

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Did anyone point out that both Adam and Eve were not slowly created but created instantaneously to the fullness of maturity, being able to comprehend God and understand Him to the point that He would hold them responsible for their understanding?

If God instantly created them to the fullness of maturity in God's own eyes, then why does anyone think that when He says He did the same with everything else (6 days to make everything) that He is lying? The Hebrew word used in Genesis for day is yom, which always means what we know as a day: daytime and nighttime; 24 hours.

 

I believe that those who insist that God took a loooooooong time to make everything are trying to figure out how they themselves could have done it - they deny God's unlimited ability.

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....Western Science has a lot to do with truth....

 

....How many people bother to take up Paul's methodology....

 

....and speak to these groups in language that has maximal clarity....

 

:thumbsup:

 

Beloved, As I See It

Western Science (Mostly)

Will Have Nothing To Do With The Truth

 

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

 

The same was in the beginning with God.

 

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. John 1:1-3

 

Not Does It Even Come Close To Making Valid Eternal Predictions

 

Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

 

For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

 

And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. 1 John 215-17

 

For When It Comes To Eternity

 

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Romans 5:20

 

Western Science Is

 

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23

 

Ignorance

 

For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,

 

I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat,

 

and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel,

 

whom they have scattered among the nations,

 

and parted my land. Joel 3:1-2

 

~

 

And As For Believer's Effective Communications

 

What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops. Matthew 10:27

 

God's Word Is The Way To Maximal Clarity

 

Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

 

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

 

For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

 

For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:

 

So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. Isaiah 55:7-11

 

And To The Sure Hope Of Man

 

For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. Romans 10:11

 

Just Ask Brother Saul

 

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17

 

~

 

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

 

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

 

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

 

Love, Your Brother Joe

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Western Science has a lot to do with truth. When you see how successful your physical theories are at making specific predictions, and then using them to design technology that couldn't even be imagined a mere century before, it is very compelling to think you are onto something important and deep about the world. More than that though, western science developed first with believers. It was only in the 20th C (for physics anyway), that a link was made between being very good in your scientific field and being a skeptic about God in some sense. There's no intrinsic reason that should be that way and that is my point. A series of historical happenings led to the current alignment of unbelief and the sciences, 'conservative' Christianity and skepticism of science (and even anti-intellectualism in a wider fashion). Whether or not you think young earth creationism is definitely the case, I am convinced there are far more effective ways of reaching these various communities with the gospel than what is being done right now. How many people bother to take up Paul's methodology and speak to these groups in language that has maximal clarity?

 

 

=========================================================================

 

 

Western Science has a lot to do with truth.

 

Yes, the "science" that employs the Scientific Method....that makes "science", science.  Not the "sciences" that Masquerade under the heading "science" that aren't "science".

 

 

When you see how successful your physical theories are at making specific predictions, and then using them to design technology that couldn't even be imagined a mere century before, it is very compelling to think you are onto something important and deep about the world.

 

Yes, the "science" that uses the Scientific Method, The Empirical and Information Sciences: (Physics, Chemistry/Biochemistry, Biology).

 

You also have to be careful Equivocating (Fallacy) Science and Technology in today's landscape.  Technology is Brought To You by the Empirical Sciences....not, the Masqueraders: (Paleontology, Archeology, Anthropology, most Geology, evolutionary biology (which is a contradiction is terms; one is a pseudo- historical science slapped together incoherently with an Empirical Science), Theoretical Physics (there are echelons here, don't go all Maxwell on me :) ). Throw in Cosmology, because you can't do "repeatable" TESTS/Experiments.

 

 

A series of historical happenings led to the current alignment of unbelief and the sciences

 

Yes, the "Historical Happenings": SEE: satan and his minions.  Most of the so-called unbelief is propagated by the Masqueraders (SEE above).

 

 

and even anti-intellectualism in a wider fashion

 

Well for some "devout" Christians....They got tired of hearing:  that the Universe birthed itself from Nothing, multiple universes, Black Holes, CMB, Life coming from Dead "soup", humans coming from chimps lol, Sand Dunes and Sand Castles are conceptually the same, and the "Learned" telling them that the content of books are Authored by Ink Molecules.

Can you blame them?

 

All of these are Direct Contradictions of Validated "Scientific Principles".  They smell a Rooster in the Hen House!

 

 

How many people bother to take up Paul's methodology and speak to these groups in language that has maximal clarity?

 

Well in Paul's day, they didn't have Mass Media and higher learning Institutions incoherently bombarding the populace with fairytales beginning in diapers and not letting up until you hit the grave.

 

Can you imagine Paul's reaction if someone came into the congregation and said there is no GOD.... and life started in Soup and we descended from CHIMPS!!

 

Personally, I really don't know and don't care how old the Earth and Universe are.  It appears from inferences made in The WORD that it is young (6,000 - 10,000) years old. What I'm saying is "Scientists" don't know either, they just peddle their incoherent "Just So" stories concerning the past.....That is Untestable!!  And More importantly, They push these ideas that they have No Clue of, Incessantly....That's "A Tell", An Agenda!

 

The issue is.....do you believe that there was Death/Disease/Suffering/Thorns prior to Adam?  If so, then that is the Polar Opposite of Christian Doctrine and Directly Contradicting the Plain WORD of GOD.  To be quite honest, it's Blasphemy.

 

What better way to start out preaching the Gospel than to tear down the Incoherent Fairytale Walls of the "Science Masqueraders" then compare and contrast Fairytales with Absolute TRUTH.  Pretty Powerful IMHO.

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I am a theistic evolutionist, believing that God created us through evolution.

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I am a theistic evolutionist, believing that God created us through evolution.

What proof do you have for your assertion, seeing that you do not believe in the bible?

 

How can you believe in God if you do not believe in the bible?

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I am a theistic evolutionist, believing that God created us through evolution.

What proof do you have for your assertion, seeing that you do not believe in the bible?

 

How can you believe in God if you do not believe in the bible?

Uh.. I can. I believe in God through my life experiences, and don't believe the Bible because well, there's not a lot of evidence supporting the Bible is right and well, wholly good (I.e the Flood, creation account, the numerous genocides in the OT, Paul and Revolution are major factors). Though I do believe in the Gospels, which is why I too believe in Christ, and I believe the only requirement to be a Christian is believing in Christ as your personal savior.

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Greeting to you, The Curse of the Rodain,

I hope you don't minding me numerating your three points from your post in articulating a response

Pat

1.

Did anyone point out that both Adam and Eve were not slowly created but created instantaneously to the fullness of maturity, being able to comprehend God and understand Him to the point that He would hold them responsible for their understanding?

2.

If God instantly created them to the fullness of maturity in God's own eyes, then why does anyone think that when He says He did the same with everything else (6 days to make everything) that He is lying? The Hebrew word used in Genesis for day is yom, which always means what we know as a day: daytime and nighttime; 24 hours.

3.

I believe that those who insist that God took a loooooooong time to make everything are trying to figure out how they themselves could have done it - they deny God's unlimited ability.

POINT #1.

Overall I agree God did it in a day but was it in a day according to our time or His time? I think that is the real question and I don't think the Bible answers that question explicitly, although I believe implicitly it does.

To review the 6th Day of creation

Genesis 1:24-31

Then God said,

[A]"Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, each according to its kind";

and it was so.

(B) And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind.

And God saw that it was good.

[C]God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

[D1]Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

[D2]And God said, "See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food.

[D3]Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food"; and it was so.

E. Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

So God did more than create mankind in one day but during the sixth day he created reptiles and mammals first then created both man and women and then gave them dominion over all the living things of creation as His appointed stewards. He also told them to be fruitful and multiply. Please note he does not say sunset/moonrise and sunrise the 6th day but evening and the morning the first day. Lest we mistake evening and morning for the solar day, please be reminded that the Sun and moon were not created until day 4; so even and morning of the 1st, 2nd and 3rd day could not have had anything to do with a solar day, which you seem to insist on. Now while I believe God could have done this in a femptosecond, never mind a 24 hour period let us remember that much was going on with mankind as well.

We actually have much happening on the 6th Day that is documented more in Genesis 2

[A]

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

(B)

The LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden, and there He put the man whom He had formed. 9 And out of the ground the LORD God made every tree grow that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

[C]

Now a river went out of Eden to water the garden, and from there it parted and became four riverheads. The name of the first is Pishon; it is the one which skirts the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold. And the gold of that land is good. Bdellium and the onyx stone are there. The name of the second river is Gihon; it is the one which goes around the whole land of Cush. The name of the third river is Hiddekel; it is the one which goes toward the east of Assyria. The fourth river is the Euphrates.

[D]

Then the LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

[E]

And the LORD God said, “It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him.”

[F]

Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them.

[G]

And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name.

So Adam gave names to all cattle, to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper comparable to him.

[H]

And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place.

(I)

Then the rib which the LORD God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man.

[F]

And Adam said:

​​“This is now bone of my bones

​​And flesh of my flesh;

​​She shall be called Woman,

​​Because she was taken out of Man.”

Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.

And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

So you see there were many events that both the man and women experienced in that Day that we need to consider as well;

For one the creation of mammal and reptiles before man taking up part of that day already.

Also how long did it take Adam to name all the animals, and birds a few minutes, a few hours, days, weeks, months, years, decades?

I make no guess but remember while God can do these things in a femptosecond I believe it takes a man much, much longer.

Adam was a man not God and it had to fit into some form of finite time, which is not exactly stated.

Another thing is how long did Adam sleep; a few seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks, months?

Adam rejoiced over Eve; how long

How much time was left on Day six before God saw it was very good?

These are things I've always considered but I don't here much from the 24 hour camp in consideration of all these events of Day 6.

So my points on your point #1 are

Yes God can choose whatever timeslice He desires in order to create and go from its beginning to where He states the 6th day is good (after the creation of land creatures) and very good after the creation of human beings.

Does this have to be a 24 hour period? If you go by evening and morning you have to take into account that those evenings and mornings and days had no solar start for the earth to experience a solar day nor was there a moon the lesser light of the evening reflecting any solar rays.

POINT #2

The Hebrew word used in Genesis for day is yom, which always means what we know as a day: daytime and nighttime; 24 hours.

Yes it is "Yowm" but that does not always mean a solar day either. Take the Day of the Lord. Is that limited to a single day? Must He be subservient to our clock? I think it even may be rather arrogant of man to think God must operate on our timetable instead of His. Didn't Jesus say He is coming soon 2000 years ago? I still believe it but only because His "soon" is not my "soon" and neither are "my thoughts" and "His thoughts" the same although as a Christian we have the "mind of Christ" but as He said "my thoughts are higher than your thoughts." Therefore I believe His timing and His thoughts are above and beyond what we, as creatures, think.

Psalms 90:4 For a thousand years in Your sight are like yesterday when it is past, and like a watch in the night.

Now as far as the word yowm goes it does not always relate as a solar day. Take this passage for instance:

הִנֵּה אָֽנֹכִי שֹׁלֵחַ לָכֶם אֵת אֵלִיָּה הַנָּבִיא לִפְנֵי בֹּוא יֹום יְהוָה הַגָּדֹול וְהַנֹּורָֽא׃

"Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes. And he will turn the hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers, lest I come and strike the land with a decree of utter destruction."

Notice the traliterated word yowm Hebrew יוֹם signifying "Day" is the same as Genesis. So yowm does not always mean a single day.

Here the Day of the Lord is referring to Jesus but was it a single day or a 3 year ministry.

POINT #3

I believe that those who insist that God took a loooooooong time to make everything are trying to figure out how they themselves could have done it - they deny God's unlimited ability.

What evidence do you base this upon?

Although I am an old earth creationist I am merely sways that way by both the Biblical and the scientific evidence. I do part ways with science over the origins and progression of creation with respect to the earth. It is doubtful any Scientist would claim there could be life on earth without a Solar source but the answer to this is clearly found in Revelation.

Rev 21:23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light.

Rev 22:5 There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever.

So I would disagree with you that those who choose to believe that the days of creation were God days and not man days deny God's unlimited ability. I firmly believe God's light of Glory brought life to the earth and not some solar star and that He chose to do it in His time, with no restriction on a simple earth day.

In Christ, Pat

Edited by Macs Son
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===========================================================================================

 

These are things I've always considered but I don't here much from the 24 hour camp in consideration of all these events of Day 6.

 

Mainly because it's a Red Herring (Fallacy). 

 

This Forum is chalk full discussing these matters @ length; Start Here:

 

 

Yes it is "Yowm" but that does not always mean a solar day either.

 

I've already dealt with this from you, here (that you didn't answer):

 

Lets compare Scripture with Scripture: "Yom"----- When it is modified by a numeral or ordinal in historical narrative (359 times in the OT outside Gen. 1), it always means a literal day of about 24 hours. When modified by “evening and/or morning”, (38 times outside Gen. 1), it always means a literal day. There were plenty of words that GOD could have used if HE had wanted to teach long periods of time, yet HE did not.

 

 

Psalms 90:4 For a thousand years in Your sight are like yesterday when it is past, and like a watch in the night.

 

I've already dealt with this from you, here again (that you didn't answer):

 

This is a Rhetorical Device (a Simile: "are like") and is not speaking to a Literal Day.  Similar verse here....

 

(2 Peter 3:8) "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

 

Two more Similes ("as a", "as one")  This is not speaking to a: Literal Day = a Thousand Years....it's speaking to HIS "Timelessness", specifically.

 

In other words, it's Irrelevant to your argument (SEE: Red Herring Fallacy above)

 

 

Please note he does not say sunset/moonrise and sunrise the 6th day but evening and the morning the first day. Lest we mistake evening and morning for the solar day, please be reminded that the Sun and moon were not created until day 4; so even and morning of the 1st, 2nd and 3rd day could not have had anything to do with a solar day, which you seem to insist on. Now while I believe God could have done this in a femptosecond, never mind a 24 hour period let us remember that much was going on with mankind as well.

 

The discussion is not what GOD "could" have done; it's what HE said HE did...

 

(Exodus 20:11) "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."

 

Passages leading up for "Context"....

 

(Exodus 20:8-10) "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.  {9} Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:  {10} But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:"

 

In the industry, This is called a "Slam Dunk".

 

 

Although I am an old earth creationist I am merely sways that way by both the Biblical and the scientific evidence.

 

You have Zero Biblical Evidence, in fact, it's all Contrary to your position....SEE: above.

 

You have Zero "Scientific Evidence" because the Inquiry is Non-Sequitur (Fallacy).  Unless, you can provide some....

 

SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE: consists of observations and EXPERIMENTAL RESULTS that serve to support, refute, or modify a scientific hypothesis or theory, when collected and interpreted in accordance with the SCIENTIFIC METHOD.'

 

Step 1: Observe a Phenomenon

Step 2: Lit Review

Step 3: Hypothesis

Step 4: TEST/EXPERIMENT

Step 5: Analyze Data

Step 6: Valid/Invalid Hypothesis

Step 7: Report Results

 

??

 

By proxy of your OEC beliefs, you must also believe in a Local vs Global Flood: See here; 

 

And lastly, was there Death/Disease/Suffering/Thorns prior to Adam?

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I am a theistic evolutionist, believing that God created us through evolution.

What proof do you have for your assertion, seeing that you do not believe in the bible?

 

How can you believe in God if you do not believe in the bible?

Uh.. I can. I believe in God through my life experiences, and don't believe the Bible because well, there's not a lot of evidence supporting the Bible is right and well, wholly good (I.e the Flood, creation account, the numerous genocides in the OT, Paul and Revolution are major factors). Though I do believe in the Gospels, which is why I too believe in Christ, and I believe the only requirement to be a Christian is believing in Christ as your personal savior.

 

So the law is of no account? Anything outside the Gospels means little or nothing?

 

Homosexuality is not a sin for instance? Abortion? You shall have no other god but me? That sort of thing....

 

Just trying to understand your point of view, even though I believe you are very wrong.

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