THE SEVEN TRUMPETS,AND THE SEVEN VIALS.

[iamlamad]

 

 

 

How to show that the seals, trumpets and vials are three different events, each having their own seven events in them? The only way I can do this is with an analogy, since people do not accept how it is laid out in scripture.

There is a door in front of me with a sign on it that says "Seals". The door is open and I walk through. As I continue to walk, I see seven separate events unfolding, starting with the first seal and ending with the seventh seal, which the events I witnessed was alarming. At the end of the seventh seal, I saw another door that is now open, titled Trumpets. I walk through the door and as I continue to walk, I see seven more events unfold before me, starting with the first and ending with the seventh. These events were shocking, much more then the first seven seals events. During these events, I was also shown what took place, what is taking place and what will take place. At the end, I see another door titled Vials/Bowls. I walk through this door and as I continued to the end, I witness seven more events. These events are devastating, the wrath of God being poured out onto the unbelieving world. At the end of this I heard a loud voice claim “It is done!”, then another door appeared titled The Millennium, which was opened to walk through.

How scripture is written shows the seventh seal opens the first trumpet, and the seventh trumpet the first vial/bowl. The are not opened side by side, but in sequence. Some of the events may sound similar, but that does not equate that they are the same. Just as a parent punishes a child for continuing to misbehave, so is God punishing His creation. At first, the parent talks to the child until it is evident the child is not listening, so a warning is given ... do this again and I will have to punish you. When the child does it again, the child receives an easy punishment to get their attention. When they refuse correction, the same punishment is given, but more severely. When the child still refuses correction, the same punishment is delivered with even more severity. Each is the same kind of punishment, but they are all delivered at different times with increasing severity. So are the events in the seals, trumpets and vials/bowls.

Of course these "consecutive visions" are easy to understand, without need for an analogy. I just feel the text itself is showing 3 visions leading up to the second coming, instead of one long vision of ~21 events leading up to the second coming.

 

If this 6th seal event isn't the second coming, what event is it:

Rev 6:15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains.16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us[f] from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their[g]wrath has come, and who can withstand it?

 

Also if this 7th trumpet event is not the second coming, what event is it:

Rev 11:15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

 

“The kingdom of the world has become

    the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,

    and he will reign for ever and ever.”

 

The 6th seal is EXACTLY what John portrays it to be: the "opening salvo" of the Day of the Lord. Not as easy to see, but still truth, it is also Paul's "sudden destruction."

 

The 7th trumpet is also exactly what John portrays it to be: the MARKER for the midpoint of the week. It is the END of 6000 years of man ruling the earth and the beginning of the 1000 years of God ruling the earth. God is not a liar. God gave the ruler-ship, authority and dominion of this planet to Adam, and when Satan deceived Eve and Adam sinned, Satan USURPED Adam's authority and became the "god of this present world."  John shows us that at the 7th trumpet Satan's ruler-ship ENDS and the kingdoms of the world are transferred to Jesus Christ the KING. There is nothing here that even hints at a "coming" of the Lord. All this will take place in the supreme court of LAW, IN HEAVEN.

 

LAMAD

 

 

Aah so you are saying the 7th trumpet is the "marker for the midpoint of the week". So let me clarify,  the kingdom of the world becomes Christ's at the midpoint of the week?  Interesting!?

 

15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

“The kingdom of the world has become

    the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,

    and he will reign for ever and ever.”

 

It is far more than "the middle of the week. It is also the changing from one Millennium to another. This is the beginning of the Millennial reign of Christ. However, He has given the Beast 42 months of authority, and will NEVER go back on His word: the beast will have His 42 months.

 

Did you ever stop to think, God would not have any authority to destroy the world as long as Satan was the god of this world. It is at the 7th trumpet that the ruler-ship of the world changes: Satan loses and Jesus wins, and the kingdoms are transferred to Jesus.

 

LAMAD

[iamlamad]

 

 

 

 

How to show that the seals, trumpets and vials are three different events, each having their own seven events in them? The only way I can do this is with an analogy, since people do not accept how it is laid out in scripture.

There is a door in front of me with a sign on it that says "Seals". The door is open and I walk through. As I continue to walk, I see seven separate events unfolding, starting with the first seal and ending with the seventh seal, which the events I witnessed was alarming. At the end of the seventh seal, I saw another door that is now open, titled Trumpets. I walk through the door and as I continue to walk, I see seven more events unfold before me, starting with the first and ending with the seventh. These events were shocking, much more then the first seven seals events. During these events, I was also shown what took place, what is taking place and what will take place. At the end, I see another door titled Vials/Bowls. I walk through this door and as I continued to the end, I witness seven more events. These events are devastating, the wrath of God being poured out onto the unbelieving world. At the end of this I heard a loud voice claim “It is done!”, then another door appeared titled The Millennium, which was opened to walk through.

How scripture is written shows the seventh seal opens the first trumpet, and the seventh trumpet the first vial/bowl. The are not opened side by side, but in sequence. Some of the events may sound similar, but that does not equate that they are the same. Just as a parent punishes a child for continuing to misbehave, so is God punishing His creation. At first, the parent talks to the child until it is evident the child is not listening, so a warning is given ... do this again and I will have to punish you. When the child does it again, the child receives an easy punishment to get their attention. When they refuse correction, the same punishment is given, but more severely. When the child still refuses correction, the same punishment is delivered with even more severity. Each is the same kind of punishment, but they are all delivered at different times with increasing severity. So are the events in the seals, trumpets and vials/bowls.

Of course these "consecutive visions" are easy to understand, without need for an analogy. I just feel the text itself is showing 3 visions leading up to the second coming, instead of one long vision of ~21 events leading up to the second coming.

 

If this 6th seal event isn't the second coming, what event is it:

Rev 6:15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains.16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us[f] from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their[g]wrath has come, and who can withstand it?

 

Also if this 7th trumpet event is not the second coming, what event is it:

Rev 11:15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

 

“The kingdom of the world has become

    the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,

    and he will reign for ever and ever.”

 

 

 

The Second Coming of Christ is at the last trump.  The problem, as I see it, is when people try to overlay the three different events when scripture does not.  When a person looks only at scripture, and not how we can arrange scripture to fit our understanding, we do see that scripture lays it out as it will happen.  The 6th seal shows the lost, hiding in fear, as they are beginning to see that Gods wrath is coming.  Nowhere does it point to the rapture.

 

 

You are saying the last trump (the 7th trumpet?) is the second coming, but your analogy seemed to describe the 7 bowls occurring after the 7th trumpet. And I have never heard a clear explanation about what you are claiming as an earlier day of wrath when the the one who "sits on the throne" appears to the leaders on earth. What do you envisage happening here:

16 And they called to the mountains and the rocks, Fall on (before) us and hide us from the face of Him Who sits on the throne and from the [d]deep-seated indignation and wrath of the Lamb.17 For the great day of His wrath (vengeance, retribution, indignation) has come, and who is able to stand before it?

My explanation is pretty simple, to me this "day of wrath" is obviously the day of the Lord, the second coming.  How do you fit in an earlier day of wrath into your beliefs?

 

 

I apologize.  I meant to say the rapture will be at the last trumpet, not His second coming.  Jesus will not appear to the world until after the last bowl is poured out and loud voice from heaven states "It is done!".

 

I do not see the seventh trumpet as a mid point of the tribulation.  I see this more toward the end, where God gave His last time statement at the 5th trumpet, claiming it to last 5 months or more.  I believe the bowls will happen quicker then the seals and trumpets.

 

Your theory does not match what is written. How would one have a clue to the midpoint of the week? Daniel said that the sacrifices would be stopped and this event would divide the week into two halves. Jesus called that event the abomination and told those living in Judea, the moment they see the abomination, they must flee into the mountains. We see that fleeing in 12:6 signifying that the abomination had to come seconds before verse 12:6. What event comes before that? Not 12:1-5, for that is written as a parenthesis. So we have to look for an event in chapter 11.

 

Next, every time John mentions the time period of 3 1/2 years, whether given in days, months or years, it is a HINT that he is right at the midpoint of the week, for those time periods will start the count (for example the 1260 days of fleeing will begin at 12:6) right at the verse of mention, showing that this verse (for example 12:6) is a MIDPOINT verse.

 

Therefore you are ignoring all five of these clues.

 

LAMAD

[iamlamad]

 

 

 

How to show that the seals, trumpets and vials are three different events, each having their own seven events in them? The only way I can do this is with an analogy, since people do not accept how it is laid out in scripture.

There is a door in front of me with a sign on it that says "Seals". The door is open and I walk through. As I continue to walk, I see seven separate events unfolding, starting with the first seal and ending with the seventh seal, which the events I witnessed was alarming. At the end of the seventh seal, I saw another door that is now open, titled Trumpets. I walk through the door and as I continue to walk, I see seven more events unfold before me, starting with the first and ending with the seventh. These events were shocking, much more then the first seven seals events. During these events, I was also shown what took place, what is taking place and what will take place. At the end, I see another door titled Vials/Bowls. I walk through this door and as I continued to the end, I witness seven more events. These events are devastating, the wrath of God being poured out onto the unbelieving world. At the end of this I heard a loud voice claim “It is done!”, then another door appeared titled The Millennium, which was opened to walk through.

How scripture is written shows the seventh seal opens the first trumpet, and the seventh trumpet the first vial/bowl. The are not opened side by side, but in sequence. Some of the events may sound similar, but that does not equate that they are the same. Just as a parent punishes a child for continuing to misbehave, so is God punishing His creation. At first, the parent talks to the child until it is evident the child is not listening, so a warning is given ... do this again and I will have to punish you. When the child does it again, the child receives an easy punishment to get their attention. When they refuse correction, the same punishment is given, but more severely. When the child still refuses correction, the same punishment is delivered with even more severity. Each is the same kind of punishment, but they are all delivered at different times with increasing severity. So are the events in the seals, trumpets and vials/bowls.

Of course these "consecutive visions" are easy to understand, without need for an analogy. I just feel the text itself is showing 3 visions leading up to the second coming, instead of one long vision of ~21 events leading up to the second coming.

 

If this 6th seal event isn't the second coming, what event is it:

Rev 6:15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains.16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us[f] from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their[g]wrath has come, and who can withstand it?

 

Also if this 7th trumpet event is not the second coming, what event is it:

Rev 11:15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

 

“The kingdom of the world has become

    the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,

    and he will reign for ever and ever.”

 

 

 

The Second Coming of Christ is at the last trump.  The problem, as I see it, is when people try to overlay the three different events when scripture does not.  When a person looks only at scripture, and not how we can arrange scripture to fit our understanding, we do see that scripture lays it out as it will happen.  The 6th seal shows the lost, hiding in fear, as they are beginning to see that Gods wrath is coming.  Nowhere does it point to the rapture.

 

 

You are saying the last trump (the 7th trumpet?) is the second coming, but your analogy seemed to describe the 7 bowls occurring after the 7th trumpet. And I have never heard a clear explanation about what you are claiming as an earlier day of wrath when the the one who "sits on the throne" appears to the leaders on earth. What do you envisage happening here:

16 And they called to the mountains and the rocks, Fall on (before) us and hide us from the face of Him Who sits on the throne and from the [d]deep-seated indignation and wrath of the Lamb.17 For the great day of His wrath (vengeance, retribution, indignation) has come, and who is able to stand before it?

My explanation is pretty simple, to me this "day of wrath" is obviously the day of the Lord, the second coming.  How do you fit in an earlier day of wrath into your beliefs?

 

Why do you tie "the day of the Lord" with "the second coming? What verse tells you these two things are synonymous?  if we follow John's narrative without rearranging things to fit a pet theory, John shows the day of the Lord beginning at the 6th seal, and His coming after the 7th vial. Truthfully, there will be over 7 years between the start of the Day of the Lord, and the coming of Jesus on the white horse.

 

If you believe what Paul wrote, Jesus NEXT coming FOR His bride, will be the trigger for the Day. To locate His coming for the rapture of the Bride, look in Rev. chapter 6. Paul's "sudden destruction" is the earthquake at the 6th seal. this great earthquake will be caused by the dead in Christ rising. If you notice, God has given us two hints that when the dead are raised to resurrection bodies, there will be an earthquake. (Matthew 27 and Rev. 11).

 

There is no "coming" at the 6th seal. There is not even one word that hints of a "coming" there, The ONLY way to associate the 6th seal with a coming of Christ is to recognize that the great earthquake at the 6th seal will be caused by the dead in Christ rising. So His "coming" for Paul's rapture will be one instant BEFORE the 6th seal. It was no mistake that God showed John the raptured church IN HEAVEN just after the 6th seal.

 

 

LAMAD

[iamlamad]

Sorry, duplicate post

 

[iamlamad]

 

The 6th Seal cannot be the Second Coming.  Why;  Because there is a 7th Seal which follows.  Where does Armageddon fit in if all are hiding.  After the 6th Seal, the Wrath is just beginning for those still on earth.  Rev 6:17 - For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?

 

Rev 8...  When he opened the 7th Seal, there was silence in heaven for about a half an hour.  v2 - And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven Trumpets.  And this after the 7th Seal.  Yet these seven angel all sound their trumpets.

 

With the Seals; the Lamb is opening each of them.  Then with the Trumpets, there are 7 angels which sound or blow their trumpets.  Next there are seven angels which pour out vials of Wrath.

 

Now the 1 Thes 4:16  Three things are happening at once.  1.  For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command (verbal, not a trumpet).  2.  With the voice of the archangel (verbal), and  3.  With the Trumpet call of God (a call from God, not an angel).  Then the dead in Christ will rise first, and then we who are still alive will rise to meet them in the air.   What is happening here?  Rejoicing or Mourning.  What happens at the Second Coming?  On needs to look at Zech and all the "On that Days".  And this is the Word of God concerning Israel.  The Second Coming is mainly for Israel, for their inheritance.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

You have a problem then, because of the events of 5th & 6th trumpets definitely are about tribulation timing when God's people here on earth go through a time of persecution, and that is not the time of God's wrath that's to occur with the day of Christ's return.

 

Likewise all the way to the 7th vial, the dragon is still in power upon the earth, meaning the event of God's cup of wrath on the day of The Lord with Christ's coming won't happen until the 7th vial. God's wrath through His Son on the day of His return is what that 6th Seal event is about which ends this present world, along with the dragon's reign and the tribulation time.

 

The days of great tribulation do not begin until the MIDPOINT of the week. Did you forget what Jesus said?  "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains..."  This event, the abomination that caused the sacrifices to cease, comes AFTER the 5th and 6th trumpet judgments. The abomination takes place in chapter 11, not chapter 9. Those fleeing in 12:6 are fleeing because they have JUST SEEN the abomination. The Beast's 42 months of authority begin very shortly after the abomination and continue all the way to Jesus return, when he is captured and thrown into the lake of fire.

 

the event of God's cup of wrath on the day of The Lord with Christ's coming won't happen until the 7th vial.

 

How can anyone write one sentence with so may errors?

 

What is "the cup of wrath?" Do you mean the vials of His wrath? Just simply reading the text shows us that the vials come BEFORE Jesus returns on the white Horse. Before He comes the last vial, the 7th, must be poured out to END the week, then events in heaven must take place: the marriage and supper. Finally, AFTER the marriage and supper, Jesus gets on His white horse to descend to earth.

 

Next, just a simply reading of John's narrative shows us that the Day of the Lord comes LONG before (many chapters before) Jesus returns on the white horse. Why would ANYONE try to rearrange John's book when it makes perfect sense as it is written?

 

It is a completely BOGUS theory that "the day of the Lord" begins at His coming on the white horse. That is twisting and rearranging John's book. Just read it as written: the "Day of His wrath" is written in chapter 6 of Revelation, at the 6th seal. There is one more seal that must be opened before the book can be opened and read, or before any of the trumpets can be sounded. no matter how hard you try, the scroll WILL NOT BE unrolled until ALL 7 SEALS ARE broken or opened.

 

Please, just open your book of Revelation and read: there are MANY WORDS written between the 7th vial and His coming. Some of those words describe the MARRIAGE and SUPPER. You have no authority to rearrange. Leave it as written: the marriage and supper will take place AFTER the 7th vial but BEFORE Jesus comes on His white horse.

 

God's wrath through His Son on the day of His return is what that 6th Seal event is about which ends this present world, along with the dragon's reign and the tribulation time.

 

This sentence is worse than the other one. It is ALL NONSENSE; a jumbled up mess of false theories.

 

Yes, I will agree that Jesus will be ANGRY at the battle of ARmageddon. Since He is GOD, then God is still angry after the vials of His wrath are poured out. However, God's wrath BEGINS at the beginning of the 70th week at the great earthquake at the 6th seal. God's wrath is in the first trumpet, and the second trumpet and the third trumpet and the 4th - all the way to the 7th trumpet: ALL are God's wrath at a world that refuses to repent.

 

Do this: take a piece of paper and write on the inside "TRumpet 1" in the middle of the page on the first line. Then "trumpet 2" on the next line, "trumpet 3" on the next, down to the 7th. Then get a pencil and roll the paper from the left side towards the center. Get a second pencil and roll the right side towards the center, until both rolls touch in the middle. Now melt some wax and seal the rolls so they cannot be unrolled. Now give it to someone else and ask them, WHAT is written on the inside?

 

NO ONE will know what is written on the inside until the      seal of wax is BROKEN or opened so the rolls can be unrolled to reveal what is written on the INSIDE.l

 

Now, after you have tried this, you can explain to us all HOW the first trumpet judgment can be revealed before the 7th seal on the scroll us broken or opened so that the scroll can be unrolled.

 

"This present world" will not end until over 7 years AFTER the 6th seal. Anyone can try to say otherwise until these events happen, but no one will not change God's mind, nor will these false theories change what is coming.  When the 7th seal is opened, THEN the scroll will be unrolled to reveal the beginning of the trumpet judgments. And when the trumpets have finished and the abomination has occurred, then, some UNKNOWN time after, God will begin to pour out the vials of His wrath. Just because someone has a pet theory that has rearranged all these events does not mean God will change His mind.

 

LAMAD

[Montana Marv]

 

The 6th Seal cannot be the Second Coming.  Why;  Because there is a 7th Seal which follows.  Where does Armageddon fit in if all are hiding.  After the 6th Seal, the Wrath is just beginning for those still on earth.  Rev 6:17 - For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?

 

Rev 8...  When he opened the 7th Seal, there was silence in heaven for about a half an hour.  v2 - And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven Trumpets.  And this after the 7th Seal.  Yet these seven angel all sound their trumpets.

 

With the Seals; the Lamb is opening each of them.  Then with the Trumpets, there are 7 angels which sound or blow their trumpets.  Next there are seven angels which pour out vials of Wrath.

 

Now the 1 Thes 4:16  Three things are happening at once.  1.  For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command (verbal, not a trumpet).  2.  With the voice of the archangel (verbal), and  3.  With the Trumpet call of God (a call from God, not an angel).  Then the dead in Christ will rise first, and then we who are still alive will rise to meet them in the air.   What is happening here?  Rejoicing or Mourning.  What happens at the Second Coming?  On needs to look at Zech and all the "On that Days".  And this is the Word of God concerning Israel.  The Second Coming is mainly for Israel, for their inheritance.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

You have a problem then, because of the events of 5th & 6th trumpets definitely are about tribulation timing when God's people here on earth go through a time of persecution, and that is not the time of God's wrath that's to occur with the day of Christ's return.

 

Likewise all the way to the 7th vial, the dragon is still in power upon the earth, meaning the event of God's cup of wrath on the day of The Lord with Christ's coming won't happen until the 7th vial. God's wrath through His Son on the day of His return is what that 6th Seal event is about which ends this present world, along with the dragon's reign and the tribulation time.

 

Salty

 

I have no problem:  For I see ALL the 7 Seals, 7 Trumpets, and 7 Bowls unfolding in the final 3 1/2 years of the final 70th Week which is yet to come.  I say the Dragon is in control for the final 3 1/2 years per Rev 12:13.   Who then is control for the first 3 1/2 years?  The beast with the fatal wound in Rev 13:5, which exercise his authority for 3 1/2 years, also which was thrown alive into the Lake of Fire with the False Prophet . per Rev 19:20. Prior to Armageddon.

 

I see the 7 Seals, 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls all in sequential order.  First 2 years of the final 3 1/2 years are the Seal Judgments, The next one year are the Trumpet Judgments, and the final 6 months are the Bowl Judgments.  That is how I see them unfolding.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[iamlamad]

Hi LAMAD,

 

I think you need to read what I was saying one more time and I think you will realize that this statement of yours has already been addressed:

 

 

 

Nice trick, slipping verses from chapter 15 right in the list of verses from chapter 8, AS IF THEY WERE MEANT TO BE PUT TOGETHER.

However, John did not put them together. Did you notice how John wrote if it was the same angel he had seen before? Rev. 17:1 John wrote "Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and talked with me,"  And again in 21:9; "Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me,"  John does not say that with any of the trumpet angels. We could guess then that the vial angels are different than the trumpet angels.

 

What happens when one of the plague and vial angels pours out his vial? That is the plague associated with the vial. What event actually happens is the plague, and the vial shows that the plague is coming from God's wrath.

 

THERE IS NO NEED to  rearrange the book!

 

 

 

However, if for some reason you don't notice it, again, then I will gladly go over it, again.

 

 

 

if we study, we will see that the events of the vials are DIFFERENT than the events of the trumpets, and cannot be talking of the same events.

 

 

 

Again, if you go over what I was saying one more time, I think you will find that this has already addressed in my explanation.

 

 

Oh, and LAMAD, one last thing friend,  you made a BIG error saying this:

 

 

In other words, something read in a given chapter, say chapter 11, will ALWAYS be after the events of the previous chapter. We are not allowed to mix them up or rearrange them. Anyway, you desire to rearrange to fit your theory. Why not form your theory from what is written and in the order it is written? Wouldn't that make more sense?

 

 

If you want to take it back, we can forget you said it, no harm done...otherwise... I will use it against you...lol...up to you!

 

Cheers.

No error made. What is written is written. John wrote with GOD GIVEN chronology. No changes or rearranging is necessary. if you THINK rearranging is necessary, it will be up to you to PROVE such a theory. Of course, there are some parenthesis that are an exception to this rule. For example, 12:1-5 is written as a parenthesis about the birth of the Lord Jesus somewhere around 2 BC. of course that would not fit in John's 70th week chronology. It is why it is a parenthesis.

 

Yes, this statement of yours was addressed. Perhaps I did not "get it" and you need to make it clearer. Please, go over it again.

 

Or, perhaps I did get it, and disagreed. It is OBVIOUS what the plagues are: they are what happens on earth when an associated vial is poured out. The plague then, for example, is the sea turning to blood. It is accomplished with the wrath of God (the vial) on an unrepentant world. The sea turning to blood then is not the vial, it is the plague, accomplished WITH the vial. This is showing us the REASON why God is turning the sea into blood. It is His WRATH. The trumpets at this time are OVER and completed. The vials and associated plagues are a NEW SET of judgments, much worse than the trumpets.

 

LAMAD

[iamlamad]

 

The 6th seal is EXACTLY what John portrays it to be: the "opening salvo" of the Day of the Lord. Not as easy to see, but still truth, it is also Paul's "sudden destruction."

 

The 7th trumpet is also exactly what John portrays it to be: the MARKER for the midpoint of the week. It is the END of 6000 years of man ruling the earth and the beginning of the 1000 years of God ruling the earth. God is not a liar. God gave the ruler-ship, authority and dominion of this planet to Adam, and when Satan deceived Eve and Adam sinned, Satan USURPED Adam's authority and became the "god of this present world."  John shows us that at the 7th trumpet Satan's ruler-ship ENDS and the kingdoms of the world are transferred to Jesus Christ the KING. There is nothing here that even hints at a "coming" of the Lord. All this will take place in the supreme court of LAW, IN HEAVEN.

 

LAMAD

How do you see the last trumpet mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:51-53?

Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed — in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

The last trumpet mentioned in scripture is the 7th trumpet.

 

Is God not allowed to mention a trumpet without someone claiming it must be another trumpet mentioned in scripture? The "last trump" at the rapture of the church (1 Cor. 15 and 1 Thes. 4) has NOTHING to do with the 7th trumpet in Revelation.

 

Do you suppose that at the 7th trumpet in Revelation God will send angels to remove all trumpets from the earth, so that NEVER, EVER will another trumpet sound? OF COURSE NOT! So we have to qualify "last" to mean the last of a certain series or last in a given time frame, or even the last in a dispensation.

 

The last trumpet at Paul's rapture will most certainly be the very last trumpet blast of the church age, for moments after the rapture it will be "The Day of the Lord." (See the 6th seal in Rev. 6)

 

LAMAD

[Serving]

Hi LAMAD,

 

 

 

No error made. What is written is written. John wrote with GOD GIVEN chronology.

 

 

 

The visions themselves were given chronologically, yes, but not the order of events.

 

 

 

No changes or rearranging is necessary.

 

 

 

No changes were made LAMAD, and as for the rearranging, the information within the verses did that all on their own as i already explained.

 

 

 

if you THINK rearranging is necessary, it will be up to you to PROVE such a theory.

 

 

 

I will go over it again for you...but first:

 

 

 

Of course, there are some parenthesis that are an exception to this rule. For example, 12:1-5 is written as a parenthesis about the birth of the Lord Jesus somewhere around 2 BC. of course that would not fit in John's 70th week chronology. It is why it is a parenthesis.

 

 

Hmmm, I see, first give whatever conflicts with a theory a name, then, include the confliction as though it were a mere part of that theory all along...and...shazzam...a contradiction no more!! ....

 

Neat trick...just one problem though...it is only a trick...

 

Because here is an example of Parenthesis:

 

Its a section in a sentence that only adds to the sentence, and would still make sense without it. A parenthesis can sometimes be seperated from a sentence by commas or brackets.

 

What you described was not parenthesis, LAMAD, but a personal view.
 

 

Yes, this statement of yours was addressed. Perhaps I did not "get it" and you need to make it clearer. Please, go over it again. Or, perhaps I did get it, and disagreed.

 

 

Perhaps i should go over it again because you didn't get it?

 

OR

 

Perhaps i should go over it again because you did get it, yet disagreed?

 

Hmmm....

 

 

It is OBVIOUS what the plagues are: they are what happens on earth when an associated vial is poured out. The plague then, for example, is the sea turning to blood. It is accomplished with the wrath of God (the vial) on an unrepentant world. The sea turning to blood then is not the vial, it is the plague, accomplished WITH the vial. This is showing us the REASON why God is turning the sea into blood. It is His WRATH.

 

 

 

LAMAD, i'm sure you understand what plagues are...no need to explian.

 

 

 

The trumpets at this time are OVER and completed. The vials and associated plagues are a NEW SET of judgments, much worse than the trumpets.

 

 

Here is where i disagree.

 

Now the interesting thing out of this...is this...

 

If we go by your method of chronological order, then you, by your own admittance, have no other choice but to agree with me...

 

 

 

So, LAMAD, I will explain again...

 

Rev 15:5 And after that i looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:

 

Rev 15:6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.

 

Rev 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

 

Did you notice it was within a chronological order LAMAD?

 

So...one last time...

 

1 Seven angels come out of a temple...v5

 

2 Seven angels having the seven plagues...having means that the plagues are still on their person...that means unused...so seven angels come out of a temple with seven unblown trumpets (plagues)..v6

 

3 THEN one of the four beasts gives the seven angels, seven vials...v7

 

 

And that is it LAMAD!! ...seven angels come out of a temple with seven trumpets, which they have not yet used (having), and before they even use them, they are given seven golden vials...which means that each angel has one trumpet and one vial each.

 

And since they are in a chronological order that obeys your demand...and within the same chapter...I am glad to say that we are now in full agreement...wouldn't you?

 

I'm interested to hear your response whenever you are ready..

 

Cheers LAMAD.

[ARGOSY]

 

 

 

 

How to show that the seals, trumpets and vials are three different events, each having their own seven events in them? The only way I can do this is with an analogy, since people do not accept how it is laid out in scripture.

There is a door in front of me with a sign on it that says "Seals". The door is open and I walk through. As I continue to walk, I see seven separate events unfolding, starting with the first seal and ending with the seventh seal, which the events I witnessed was alarming. At the end of the seventh seal, I saw another door that is now open, titled Trumpets. I walk through the door and as I continue to walk, I see seven more events unfold before me, starting with the first and ending with the seventh. These events were shocking, much more then the first seven seals events. During these events, I was also shown what took place, what is taking place and what will take place. At the end, I see another door titled Vials/Bowls. I walk through this door and as I continued to the end, I witness seven more events. These events are devastating, the wrath of God being poured out onto the unbelieving world. At the end of this I heard a loud voice claim “It is done!”, then another door appeared titled The Millennium, which was opened to walk through.

How scripture is written shows the seventh seal opens the first trumpet, and the seventh trumpet the first vial/bowl. The are not opened side by side, but in sequence. Some of the events may sound similar, but that does not equate that they are the same. Just as a parent punishes a child for continuing to misbehave, so is God punishing His creation. At first, the parent talks to the child until it is evident the child is not listening, so a warning is given ... do this again and I will have to punish you. When the child does it again, the child receives an easy punishment to get their attention. When they refuse correction, the same punishment is given, but more severely. When the child still refuses correction, the same punishment is delivered with even more severity. Each is the same kind of punishment, but they are all delivered at different times with increasing severity. So are the events in the seals, trumpets and vials/bowls.

Of course these "consecutive visions" are easy to understand, without need for an analogy. I just feel the text itself is showing 3 visions leading up to the second coming, instead of one long vision of ~21 events leading up to the second coming.

 

If this 6th seal event isn't the second coming, what event is it:

Rev 6:15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains.16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us[f] from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their[g]wrath has come, and who can withstand it?

 

Also if this 7th trumpet event is not the second coming, what event is it:

Rev 11:15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

 

“The kingdom of the world has become

    the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,

    and he will reign for ever and ever.”

 

 

 

The Second Coming of Christ is at the last trump.  The problem, as I see it, is when people try to overlay the three different events when scripture does not.  When a person looks only at scripture, and not how we can arrange scripture to fit our understanding, we do see that scripture lays it out as it will happen.  The 6th seal shows the lost, hiding in fear, as they are beginning to see that Gods wrath is coming.  Nowhere does it point to the rapture.

 

 

You are saying the last trump (the 7th trumpet?) is the second coming, but your analogy seemed to describe the 7 bowls occurring after the 7th trumpet. And I have never heard a clear explanation about what you are claiming as an earlier day of wrath when the the one who "sits on the throne" appears to the leaders on earth. What do you envisage happening here:

16 And they called to the mountains and the rocks, Fall on (before) us and hide us from the face of Him Who sits on the throne and from the [d]deep-seated indignation and wrath of the Lamb.17 For the great day of His wrath (vengeance, retribution, indignation) has come, and who is able to stand before it?

My explanation is pretty simple, to me this "day of wrath" is obviously the day of the Lord, the second coming.  How do you fit in an earlier day of wrath into your beliefs?

 

Why do you tie "the day of the Lord" with "the second coming? What verse tells you these two things are synonymous?  if we follow John's narrative without rearranging things to fit a pet theory, John shows the day of the Lord beginning at the 6th seal, and His coming after the 7th vial. Truthfully, there will be over 7 years between the start of the Day of the Lord, and the coming of Jesus on the white horse.

 

If you believe what Paul wrote, Jesus NEXT coming FOR His bride, will be the trigger for the Day. To locate His coming for the rapture of the Bride, look in Rev. chapter 6. Paul's "sudden destruction" is the earthquake at the 6th seal. this great earthquake will be caused by the dead in Christ rising. If you notice, God has given us two hints that when the dead are raised to resurrection bodies, there will be an earthquake. (Matthew 27 and Rev. 11).

 

There is no "coming" at the 6th seal. There is not even one word that hints of a "coming" there, The ONLY way to associate the 6th seal with a coming of Christ is to recognize that the great earthquake at the 6th seal will be caused by the dead in Christ rising. So His "coming" for Paul's rapture will be one instant BEFORE the 6th seal. It was no mistake that God showed John the raptured church IN HEAVEN just after the 6th seal.

 

 

LAMAD

 

 

The day of the Lord occurs at the second coming:

Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

 

I find that your belief that all the leaders of the earth see God around the time of a pre-trib rapture, and yet carry on with their lives for years after that until the second coming.... completely incredulous!

15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains.16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us[f] from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!