THE SEVEN TRUMPETS,AND THE SEVEN VIALS.

[ARGOSY]

 

 

 

 

How to show that the seals, trumpets and vials are three different events, each having their own seven events in them? The only way I can do this is with an analogy, since people do not accept how it is laid out in scripture.

There is a door in front of me with a sign on it that says "Seals". The door is open and I walk through. As I continue to walk, I see seven separate events unfolding, starting with the first seal and ending with the seventh seal, which the events I witnessed was alarming. At the end of the seventh seal, I saw another door that is now open, titled Trumpets. I walk through the door and as I continue to walk, I see seven more events unfold before me, starting with the first and ending with the seventh. These events were shocking, much more then the first seven seals events. During these events, I was also shown what took place, what is taking place and what will take place. At the end, I see another door titled Vials/Bowls. I walk through this door and as I continued to the end, I witness seven more events. These events are devastating, the wrath of God being poured out onto the unbelieving world. At the end of this I heard a loud voice claim “It is done!”, then another door appeared titled The Millennium, which was opened to walk through.

How scripture is written shows the seventh seal opens the first trumpet, and the seventh trumpet the first vial/bowl. The are not opened side by side, but in sequence. Some of the events may sound similar, but that does not equate that they are the same. Just as a parent punishes a child for continuing to misbehave, so is God punishing His creation. At first, the parent talks to the child until it is evident the child is not listening, so a warning is given ... do this again and I will have to punish you. When the child does it again, the child receives an easy punishment to get their attention. When they refuse correction, the same punishment is given, but more severely. When the child still refuses correction, the same punishment is delivered with even more severity. Each is the same kind of punishment, but they are all delivered at different times with increasing severity. So are the events in the seals, trumpets and vials/bowls.

Of course these "consecutive visions" are easy to understand, without need for an analogy. I just feel the text itself is showing 3 visions leading up to the second coming, instead of one long vision of ~21 events leading up to the second coming.

 

If this 6th seal event isn't the second coming, what event is it:

Rev 6:15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains.16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us[f] from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their[g]wrath has come, and who can withstand it?

 

Also if this 7th trumpet event is not the second coming, what event is it:

Rev 11:15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

 

“The kingdom of the world has become

    the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,

    and he will reign for ever and ever.”

 

 

 

The Second Coming of Christ is at the last trump.  The problem, as I see it, is when people try to overlay the three different events when scripture does not.  When a person looks only at scripture, and not how we can arrange scripture to fit our understanding, we do see that scripture lays it out as it will happen.  The 6th seal shows the lost, hiding in fear, as they are beginning to see that Gods wrath is coming.  Nowhere does it point to the rapture.

 

 

You are saying the last trump (the 7th trumpet?) is the second coming, but your analogy seemed to describe the 7 bowls occurring after the 7th trumpet. And I have never heard a clear explanation about what you are claiming as an earlier day of wrath when the the one who "sits on the throne" appears to the leaders on earth. What do you envisage happening here:

16 And they called to the mountains and the rocks, Fall on (before) us and hide us from the face of Him Who sits on the throne and from the [d]deep-seated indignation and wrath of the Lamb.17 For the great day of His wrath (vengeance, retribution, indignation) has come, and who is able to stand before it?

My explanation is pretty simple, to me this "day of wrath" is obviously the day of the Lord, the second coming.  How do you fit in an earlier day of wrath into your beliefs?

 

 

I apologize.  I meant to say the rapture will be at the last trumpet, not His second coming.  Jesus will not appear to the world until after the last bowl is poured out and loud voice from heaven states "It is done!".

 

I do not see the seventh trumpet as a mid point of the tribulation.  I see this more toward the end, where God gave His last time statement at the 5th trumpet, claiming it to last 5 months or more.  I believe the bowls will happen quicker then the seals and trumpets.

 

 

Ok thanks for explaining.   So do you see the 6th seal as the leaders of the world hiding away in caves for a little while, and then crawling out their hiding places and carrying on with life? If so...interesting view!  

 

Then a little later you believe the 7th trumpet is the rapture but not the second coming?   If so why does the kingdom of this world become the kingdom of Jesus at the 7th trumpet? Please explain what happens to the kingdom of this world at the rapture?

[iamlamad]

 

 

 

 

 

How to show that the seals, trumpets and vials are three different events, each having their own seven events in them? The only way I can do this is with an analogy, since people do not accept how it is laid out in scripture.

There is a door in front of me with a sign on it that says "Seals". The door is open and I walk through. As I continue to walk, I see seven separate events unfolding, starting with the first seal and ending with the seventh seal, which the events I witnessed was alarming. At the end of the seventh seal, I saw another door that is now open, titled Trumpets. I walk through the door and as I continue to walk, I see seven more events unfold before me, starting with the first and ending with the seventh. These events were shocking, much more then the first seven seals events. During these events, I was also shown what took place, what is taking place and what will take place. At the end, I see another door titled Vials/Bowls. I walk through this door and as I continued to the end, I witness seven more events. These events are devastating, the wrath of God being poured out onto the unbelieving world. At the end of this I heard a loud voice claim “It is done!”, then another door appeared titled The Millennium, which was opened to walk through.

How scripture is written shows the seventh seal opens the first trumpet, and the seventh trumpet the first vial/bowl. The are not opened side by side, but in sequence. Some of the events may sound similar, but that does not equate that they are the same. Just as a parent punishes a child for continuing to misbehave, so is God punishing His creation. At first, the parent talks to the child until it is evident the child is not listening, so a warning is given ... do this again and I will have to punish you. When the child does it again, the child receives an easy punishment to get their attention. When they refuse correction, the same punishment is given, but more severely. When the child still refuses correction, the same punishment is delivered with even more severity. Each is the same kind of punishment, but they are all delivered at different times with increasing severity. So are the events in the seals, trumpets and vials/bowls.

Of course these "consecutive visions" are easy to understand, without need for an analogy. I just feel the text itself is showing 3 visions leading up to the second coming, instead of one long vision of ~21 events leading up to the second coming.

 

If this 6th seal event isn't the second coming, what event is it:

Rev 6:15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains.16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us[f] from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their[g]wrath has come, and who can withstand it?

 

Also if this 7th trumpet event is not the second coming, what event is it:

Rev 11:15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

 

“The kingdom of the world has become

    the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,

    and he will reign for ever and ever.”

 

 

 

The Second Coming of Christ is at the last trump.  The problem, as I see it, is when people try to overlay the three different events when scripture does not.  When a person looks only at scripture, and not how we can arrange scripture to fit our understanding, we do see that scripture lays it out as it will happen.  The 6th seal shows the lost, hiding in fear, as they are beginning to see that Gods wrath is coming.  Nowhere does it point to the rapture.

 

 

You are saying the last trump (the 7th trumpet?) is the second coming, but your analogy seemed to describe the 7 bowls occurring after the 7th trumpet. And I have never heard a clear explanation about what you are claiming as an earlier day of wrath when the the one who "sits on the throne" appears to the leaders on earth. What do you envisage happening here:

16 And they called to the mountains and the rocks, Fall on (before) us and hide us from the face of Him Who sits on the throne and from the [d]deep-seated indignation and wrath of the Lamb.17 For the great day of His wrath (vengeance, retribution, indignation) has come, and who is able to stand before it?

My explanation is pretty simple, to me this "day of wrath" is obviously the day of the Lord, the second coming.  How do you fit in an earlier day of wrath into your beliefs?

 

Why do you tie "the day of the Lord" with "the second coming? What verse tells you these two things are synonymous?  if we follow John's narrative without rearranging things to fit a pet theory, John shows the day of the Lord beginning at the 6th seal, and His coming after the 7th vial. Truthfully, there will be over 7 years between the start of the Day of the Lord, and the coming of Jesus on the white horse.

 

If you believe what Paul wrote, Jesus NEXT coming FOR His bride, will be the trigger for the Day. To locate His coming for the rapture of the Bride, look in Rev. chapter 6. Paul's "sudden destruction" is the earthquake at the 6th seal. this great earthquake will be caused by the dead in Christ rising. If you notice, God has given us two hints that when the dead are raised to resurrection bodies, there will be an earthquake. (Matthew 27 and Rev. 11).

 

There is no "coming" at the 6th seal. There is not even one word that hints of a "coming" there, The ONLY way to associate the 6th seal with a coming of Christ is to recognize that the great earthquake at the 6th seal will be caused by the dead in Christ rising. So His "coming" for Paul's rapture will be one instant BEFORE the 6th seal. It was no mistake that God showed John the raptured church IN HEAVEN just after the 6th seal.

 

 

LAMAD

 

 

The day of the Lord occurs at the second coming:

Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

 

I find that your belief that all the leaders of the earth see God around the time of a pre-trib rapture, and yet carry on with their lives for years after that until the second coming.... completely incredulous!

15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains.16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us[f] from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!

 

Did you not realize that this verse (verse 2 above) is just the third verse AFTER the classic rapture verse? Paul has not quit talking about the rapture. He is telling us that the rapture will be the trigger for the Day of the Lord. The Day and the rapture are back to back events that cannot be separated; when the rapture occurs, the church age is over, and it becomes the Day of the Lord.

 

Note that Paul gives us a paradigm in that passage: he compares two groups of people at this great and sudden event we call the rapture: those in darkness get "sudden destruction" while those living in Christ get raptured and get to "live together with Him." This "sudden destruction" will be the earthquake caused by the dead in Christ rising, and this same earthquake John tells us is the start of the Day of the Lord.

 

So WHEN does the day of the Lord begin? The truth is, it begins the moment after the rapture. So you wish to call His coming at the rapture the "second" coming? I am fine with that. But then His coming on the white horse seven plus years later must be His third coming.

 

Do people actually SEE Christ at the rapture event when this great earthquake takes place? Or do they just imagine Him seated on His throne, about to unleash the Day of the Lord upon them? It does not really say that they see Him; only that they try to hide from Him. They KNOW it is the Day of the Lord. So  why don't people today believe John that it is the start of the Day?  I am still open on this: will Jesus be seen by the world at His pretrib rapture coming?

 

OF COURSE life goes on after the rapture. But it will be totally different. Fear will grip everyone.it will be seven plus years before Jesus returns with His bride to the battle of Armageddon.  Soon after the rapture, the trumpet judgments will begin. And the Beast will be on every TV everywhere in the world, saying that he has all the answers.

 

LAMAD

[ARGOSY]

Did you not realize that this verse (verse 2 above) is just the third verse AFTER the classic rapture verse? Paul has not quit talking about the rapture. He is telling us that the rapture will be the trigger for the Day of the Lord. The Day and the rapture are back to back events that cannot be separated; when the rapture occurs, the church age is over, and it becomes the Day of the Lord.

 

Note that Paul gives us a paradigm in that passage: he compares two groups of people at this great and sudden event we call the rapture: those in darkness get "sudden destruction" while those living in Christ get raptured and get to "live together with Him." This "sudden destruction" will be the earthquake caused by the dead in Christ rising, and this same earthquake John tells us is the start of the Day of the Lord.

 

So WHEN does the day of the Lord begin? The truth is, it begins the moment after the rapture. So you wish to call His coming at the rapture the "second" coming? I am fine with that. But then His coming on the white horse seven plus years later must be His third coming.

 

Do people actually SEE Christ at the rapture event when this great earthquake takes place? Or do they just imagine Him seated on His throne, about to unleash the Day of the Lord upon them? It does not really say that they see Him; only that they try to hide from Him. They KNOW it is the Day of the Lord. So  why don't people today believe John that it is the start of the Day?  I am still open on this: will Jesus be seen by the world at His pretrib rapture coming?

 

OF COURSE life goes on after the rapture. But it will be totally different. Fear will grip everyone.it will be seven plus years before Jesus returns with His bride to the battle of Armageddon.  Soon after the rapture, the trumpet judgments will begin. And the Beast will be on every TV everywhere in the world, saying that he has all the answers.

 

LAMAD

 

 

I quoted two verses to support my position. The first verse I quoted from is 1 Thessalonians 5 which describes the day of the Lord as a day of sudden destruction. So your claim that the 6th seal is the "opening salvo of the day of the Lord" is incorrect, because the day of the Lord is the final day of destruction, not an opening salvo. And yes I do realise the close association of this "day of destruction" with the rapture... this rapture according to 1 Thess 4 occurs at "the coming of the Lord". So at the coming of the Lord we have the day of the Lord, and we have the rapture and a day of destruction. interesting pre-trib rapture view you have there LAMAD.

 

Secondly I feel you are in denial of the actual wording of the 6th seal of Rev 6... they are obviously terrified of God and run and hide. To place this event before the second coming is incredulous. The event of the leaders of the world running and hiding in absolute fear of God occurs at the second coming... if one wishes to take the bible at face value. 

 

Everyone can read anything into the text, the bible is open to interpretation. But I believe its pretty obvious that Revelation is a series of visions regarding the second coming, and these are not fulfilled consecutively but all the visions end at the second coming.

[OneLight]

 

 

The 6th seal is EXACTLY what John portrays it to be: the "opening salvo" of the Day of the Lord. Not as easy to see, but still truth, it is also Paul's "sudden destruction."

 

The 7th trumpet is also exactly what John portrays it to be: the MARKER for the midpoint of the week. It is the END of 6000 years of man ruling the earth and the beginning of the 1000 years of God ruling the earth. God is not a liar. God gave the ruler-ship, authority and dominion of this planet to Adam, and when Satan deceived Eve and Adam sinned, Satan USURPED Adam's authority and became the "god of this present world."  John shows us that at the 7th trumpet Satan's ruler-ship ENDS and the kingdoms of the world are transferred to Jesus Christ the KING. There is nothing here that even hints at a "coming" of the Lord. All this will take place in the supreme court of LAW, IN HEAVEN.

 

LAMAD

How do you see the last trumpet mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:51-53?

Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed — in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

The last trumpet mentioned in scripture is the 7th trumpet.

 

Is God not allowed to mention a trumpet without someone claiming it must be another trumpet mentioned in scripture? The "last trump" at the rapture of the church (1 Cor. 15 and 1 Thes. 4) has NOTHING to do with the 7th trumpet in Revelation.

 

Do you suppose that at the 7th trumpet in Revelation God will send angels to remove all trumpets from the earth, so that NEVER, EVER will another trumpet sound? OF COURSE NOT! So we have to qualify "last" to mean the last of a certain series or last in a given time frame, or even the last in a dispensation.

 

The last trumpet at Paul's rapture will most certainly be the very last trumpet blast of the church age, for moments after the rapture it will be "The Day of the Lord." (See the 6th seal in Rev. 6)

 

LAMAD

 

 

I don't suppose anything.  I have faith in what scripture tells me.  You want to see it a different way, no problem.  Their are millions of "guesses" as to when everything in prophecy will happen.  Ours are just two of them.

[iamlamad]

 

Did you not realize that this verse (verse 2 above) is just the third verse AFTER the classic rapture verse? Paul has not quit talking about the rapture. He is telling us that the rapture will be the trigger for the Day of the Lord. The Day and the rapture are back to back events that cannot be separated; when the rapture occurs, the church age is over, and it becomes the Day of the Lord.

 

Note that Paul gives us a paradigm in that passage: he compares two groups of people at this great and sudden event we call the rapture: those in darkness get "sudden destruction" while those living in Christ get raptured and get to "live together with Him." This "sudden destruction" will be the earthquake caused by the dead in Christ rising, and this same earthquake John tells us is the start of the Day of the Lord.

 

So WHEN does the day of the Lord begin? The truth is, it begins the moment after the rapture. So you wish to call His coming at the rapture the "second" coming? I am fine with that. But then His coming on the white horse seven plus years later must be His third coming.

 

Do people actually SEE Christ at the rapture event when this great earthquake takes place? Or do they just imagine Him seated on His throne, about to unleash the Day of the Lord upon them? It does not really say that they see Him; only that they try to hide from Him. They KNOW it is the Day of the Lord. So  why don't people today believe John that it is the start of the Day?  I am still open on this: will Jesus be seen by the world at His pretrib rapture coming?

 

OF COURSE life goes on after the rapture. But it will be totally different. Fear will grip everyone.it will be seven plus years before Jesus returns with His bride to the battle of Armageddon.  Soon after the rapture, the trumpet judgments will begin. And the Beast will be on every TV everywhere in the world, saying that he has all the answers.

 

LAMAD

 

 

I quoted two verses to support my position. The first verse I quoted from is 1 Thessalonians 5 which describes the day of the Lord as a day of sudden destruction. So your claim that the 6th seal is the "opening salvo of the day of the Lord" is incorrect, because the day of the Lord is the final day of destruction, not an opening salvo. And yes I do realise the close association of this "day of destruction" with the rapture... this rapture according to 1 Thess 4 occurs at "the coming of the Lord". So at the coming of the Lord we have the day of the Lord, and we have the rapture and a day of destruction. interesting pre-trib rapture view you have there LAMAD.

 

Secondly I feel you are in denial of the actual wording of the 6th seal of Rev 6... they are obviously terrified of God and run and hide. To place this event before the second coming is incredulous. The event of the leaders of the world running and hiding in absolute fear of God occurs at the second coming... if one wishes to take the bible at face value. 

 

Everyone can read anything into the text, the bible is open to interpretation. But I believe its pretty obvious that Revelation is a series of visions regarding the second coming, and these are not fulfilled consecutively but all the visions end at the second coming.

 

So Paul's "sudden destruction" has some kind of time stamp on it so you know it is the "final" day? HOW did you get "final day" from 1 Thes. 5?  I think that part came from your imagination. if you look at Old Testament passages, the day of the Lord is certainly destruction, but it does not all come in one day. John TELLS US when it starts; with this earthquake at the 6th seal. There are many chapters in revelation after the first seal before we get to the END.

 

They know more that people today know: they know the SIGNS of the start of the Day of the Lord: a great, worldwide earthquake, then signs in the sun and moon. Why is it THEY recognized the start of the Day of the Lord, and writers on this forum don't?  You do realize, to get you your theory, you have to move the 6th seal to chapter 19, where John CLEARLY shows Jesus' coming? I happen to believe that God and John knew what they were doing in writing Revelation, and we have no right and no need to rearrange it to fit a theory. I simply believe John, that the day of the Lord begins in chapter 6 and continues on through most of the book.

 

If you feel the need to rearrange, I can only tell you, your theory will be proven wrong when these events take place. You are trying to open the scroll and read what is inside before you get all the seals opened to release the scroll. It simply will not work. The trumpet judgments are INSIDE the scroll and cannot be accessed until all 7 seals are opened. The way Revelation is written, NO vial will be poured out until all 7 trumpets are sounded, and NO trumpet can be sounded until all seals are opened on the scroll. I see that it makes perfect sense as it is written. I formed my beliefs on what was written, so I had no need to rearrange.

 

Finally, remember that those Pharisees in Jesus day THOUGHT they knew the Old Covenant. But they could see only ONE coming of their Messiah, when after the fact we can clearly see two comings in the Old. Now, in the New Covenant we find the same thing: there is truly two more comings, but it seems many see only one. it is absolutely true, the Bride must BE in heaven in Rev. 19 to attend the marriage and supper, for the marriage will certainly take place there. There are really two reasons for the pretrib rapture: to get the Bride to the wedding, and because God has NO DESIRE for His children to suffer under HIS WRATH.

 

Did you ever sit with pencil and paper and try to fit everything that must happen in your theory into just 3 1/2 years? Did you think about rumors of wars? Rumors can take YEARS. Wars can take many years. Pestilences can take months into years. How long do you give each rider of the horses to ride? Do all four ride at once in your theory? Do they ride to the end? John tells us one trumpet judgment will last 5 months. If EACH trumpet lasted five months, and we allowed two months for people to repent after, that would make 7 months each times 6 trumpets, which equals the entire 42 months JUST FOR TRUMPETS (I cannot count the 7th for it marks the midpoint of the week). Somehow your theory attempts to cram everything into one 42 month period. Of course with God all things are possible, but IS THAT THE INTENT OF THE AUTHOR?

 

I believe the first seals were opened when Jesus ascended (just what John tells us) and we are now waiting on the 6th seal. That means NONE Of the seals are a part of the 70th week of Daniel; only the 7th marks the beginning. Then the trumpet judgments come in the first 42 months, and the vials in the last 42 months. It is the order John gives us.

 

LAMAD

[iamlamad]

 

 

 

The 6th seal is EXACTLY what John portrays it to be: the "opening salvo" of the Day of the Lord. Not as easy to see, but still truth, it is also Paul's "sudden destruction."

 

The 7th trumpet is also exactly what John portrays it to be: the MARKER for the midpoint of the week. It is the END of 6000 years of man ruling the earth and the beginning of the 1000 years of God ruling the earth. God is not a liar. God gave the ruler-ship, authority and dominion of this planet to Adam, and when Satan deceived Eve and Adam sinned, Satan USURPED Adam's authority and became the "god of this present world."  John shows us that at the 7th trumpet Satan's ruler-ship ENDS and the kingdoms of the world are transferred to Jesus Christ the KING. There is nothing here that even hints at a "coming" of the Lord. All this will take place in the supreme court of LAW, IN HEAVEN.

 

LAMAD

How do you see the last trumpet mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:51-53?

Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed — in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

The last trumpet mentioned in scripture is the 7th trumpet.

 

Is God not allowed to mention a trumpet without someone claiming it must be another trumpet mentioned in scripture? The "last trump" at the rapture of the church (1 Cor. 15 and 1 Thes. 4) has NOTHING to do with the 7th trumpet in Revelation.

 

Do you suppose that at the 7th trumpet in Revelation God will send angels to remove all trumpets from the earth, so that NEVER, EVER will another trumpet sound? OF COURSE NOT! So we have to qualify "last" to mean the last of a certain series or last in a given time frame, or even the last in a dispensation.

 

The last trumpet at Paul's rapture will most certainly be the very last trumpet blast of the church age, for moments after the rapture it will be "The Day of the Lord." (See the 6th seal in Rev. 6)

 

LAMAD

 

 

I don't suppose anything.  I have faith in what scripture tells me.  You want to see it a different way, no problem.  Their are millions of "guesses" as to when everything in prophecy will happen.  Ours are just two of them.

 

It is an absolute fact: unless God removes ALL TRUMPETS from the earth AND FROM HEAVEN, and also removes the memories of trumpets, SOMEONE WILL BLOW a trumpet after the 7th in Revelation, either an Angel or a human. Your theory says the 7th is the last - EVER.

 

My theory says that is not the intended meaning. Paul's meaning of "last trumpet" is NOT "the last trumpet that would, in the future of Paul's writing, end up being the last one in scripture. I think it MUCH MORE likely that it is the last of a certain series or simply the very last trumpet OF THE CHURCH AGE. OF COURSE trumpets will be blown somewhere, sometime AFTER Paul's "last trump." But it will be in a different series (such as the series of 7 in Revelation) or in a different dispensation.

 

Maybe you just never thought outside of the box to realize that if Paul's trumpet was THE LAST EVER, then God would have to remove all trumpets.

 

Always remember, anyone can hook two verses together and make it appear as if they were meant to be together.

 

Judas Iscariot went out and hanged Himself.

Go thou and do likewise.

Be of good cheer, for this is the will of the Father concerning you.

 

These three statements have their basis in scripture. But is this the intent of the Author? Of course it is not. NEITHER is it the intent of the Author or Paul that his "last trump" is the 7th trump in Revelation.

 

LAMAD

[Marilyn C]

Hi Lamad,

 

I have heard that illustration too, very good. Also it is good to remember that God`s voice is likened to the `sound of  a trumpet.` (Rev. 4: 1) Thus as you said the `last trumpet,` is related to the Church age. I see it as God`s final word speaking to our hearts before we `meet the Lord in the air.`  (1 Thess. 3: 17)

 

The 7th trumpet in Revelation however, speaks of God`s word of authority on a different matter. There He is sending forth the proclamation that `the kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord, & His Christ...`(Rev. 11: 15)

 

I believe we need more & more look to what God`s intent & purpose is & not `moving deckchairs.` (generally speaking) I appreciate a lot of what you say Lamad.

[ARGOSY]

 

 

Did you not realize that this verse (verse 2 above) is just the third verse AFTER the classic rapture verse? Paul has not quit talking about the rapture. He is telling us that the rapture will be the trigger for the Day of the Lord. The Day and the rapture are back to back events that cannot be separated; when the rapture occurs, the church age is over, and it becomes the Day of the Lord.

 

Note that Paul gives us a paradigm in that passage: he compares two groups of people at this great and sudden event we call the rapture: those in darkness get "sudden destruction" while those living in Christ get raptured and get to "live together with Him." This "sudden destruction" will be the earthquake caused by the dead in Christ rising, and this same earthquake John tells us is the start of the Day of the Lord.

 

So WHEN does the day of the Lord begin? The truth is, it begins the moment after the rapture. So you wish to call His coming at the rapture the "second" coming? I am fine with that. But then His coming on the white horse seven plus years later must be His third coming.

 

Do people actually SEE Christ at the rapture event when this great earthquake takes place? Or do they just imagine Him seated on His throne, about to unleash the Day of the Lord upon them? It does not really say that they see Him; only that they try to hide from Him. They KNOW it is the Day of the Lord. So  why don't people today believe John that it is the start of the Day?  I am still open on this: will Jesus be seen by the world at His pretrib rapture coming?

 

OF COURSE life goes on after the rapture. But it will be totally different. Fear will grip everyone.it will be seven plus years before Jesus returns with His bride to the battle of Armageddon.  Soon after the rapture, the trumpet judgments will begin. And the Beast will be on every TV everywhere in the world, saying that he has all the answers.

 

LAMAD

 

 

I quoted two verses to support my position. The first verse I quoted from is 1 Thessalonians 5 which describes the day of the Lord as a day of sudden destruction. So your claim that the 6th seal is the "opening salvo of the day of the Lord" is incorrect, because the day of the Lord is the final day of destruction, not an opening salvo. And yes I do realise the close association of this "day of destruction" with the rapture... this rapture according to 1 Thess 4 occurs at "the coming of the Lord". So at the coming of the Lord we have the day of the Lord, and we have the rapture and a day of destruction. interesting pre-trib rapture view you have there LAMAD.

 

Secondly I feel you are in denial of the actual wording of the 6th seal of Rev 6... they are obviously terrified of God and run and hide. To place this event before the second coming is incredulous. The event of the leaders of the world running and hiding in absolute fear of God occurs at the second coming... if one wishes to take the bible at face value. 

 

Everyone can read anything into the text, the bible is open to interpretation. But I believe its pretty obvious that Revelation is a series of visions regarding the second coming, and these are not fulfilled consecutively but all the visions end at the second coming.

 

So Paul's "sudden destruction" has some kind of time stamp on it so you know it is the "final" day? HOW did you get "final day" from 1 Thes. 5?  I think that part came from your imagination. if you look at Old Testament passages, the day of the Lord is certainly destruction, but it does not all come in one day. John TELLS US when it starts; with this earthquake at the 6th seal. There are many chapters in revelation after the first seal before we get to the END.

 

They know more that people today know: they know the SIGNS of the start of the Day of the Lord: a great, worldwide earthquake, then signs in the sun and moon. Why is it THEY recognized the start of the Day of the Lord, and writers on this forum don't?  You do realize, to get you your theory, you have to move the 6th seal to chapter 19, where John CLEARLY shows Jesus' coming? I happen to believe that God and John knew what they were doing in writing Revelation, and we have no right and no need to rearrange it to fit a theory. I simply believe John, that the day of the Lord begins in chapter 6 and continues on through most of the book.

 

If you feel the need to rearrange, I can only tell you, your theory will be proven wrong when these events take place. You are trying to open the scroll and read what is inside before you get all the seals opened to release the scroll. It simply will not work. The trumpet judgments are INSIDE the scroll and cannot be accessed until all 7 seals are opened. The way Revelation is written, NO vial will be poured out until all 7 trumpets are sounded, and NO trumpet can be sounded until all seals are opened on the scroll. I see that it makes perfect sense as it is written. I formed my beliefs on what was written, so I had no need to rearrange.

 

Finally, remember that those Pharisees in Jesus day THOUGHT they knew the Old Covenant. But they could see only ONE coming of their Messiah, when after the fact we can clearly see two comings in the Old. Now, in the New Covenant we find the same thing: there is truly two more comings, but it seems many see only one. it is absolutely true, the Bride must BE in heaven in Rev. 19 to attend the marriage and supper, for the marriage will certainly take place there. There are really two reasons for the pretrib rapture: to get the Bride to the wedding, and because God has NO DESIRE for His children to suffer under HIS WRATH.

 

Did you ever sit with pencil and paper and try to fit everything that must happen in your theory into just 3 1/2 years? Did you think about rumors of wars? Rumors can take YEARS. Wars can take many years. Pestilences can take months into years. How long do you give each rider of the horses to ride? Do all four ride at once in your theory? Do they ride to the end? John tells us one trumpet judgment will last 5 months. If EACH trumpet lasted five months, and we allowed two months for people to repent after, that would make 7 months each times 6 trumpets, which equals the entire 42 months JUST FOR TRUMPETS (I cannot count the 7th for it marks the midpoint of the week). Somehow your theory attempts to cram everything into one 42 month period. Of course with God all things are possible, but IS THAT THE INTENT OF THE AUTHOR?

 

I believe the first seals were opened when Jesus ascended (just what John tells us) and we are now waiting on the 6th seal. That means NONE Of the seals are a part of the 70th week of Daniel; only the 7th marks the beginning. Then the trumpet judgments come in the first 42 months, and the vials in the last 42 months. It is the order John gives us.

 

LAMAD

 

 

 

Like you , I believe the seals occur mainly before the tribulation. I believe the end-points of most of John's visions in Revelation occur at the second coming.

 

You seem to see Revelation as a long vision unfolding in sequence, I see it as a series of visions. therefore I am not "re-arranging" Revelation as you allege. It is simply a number of visions that John had , mainly about the second coming. Due to your preconceived notions of Revelation, you are failing to see the obvious, that the day of the Lord is the second coming, and just like Isaiah 2, people run and hide in fear on that final day of the restoration of Israel. This is the same day of wrath, and destruction , and the day of the Lord as mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 5. 

 

From this point I feel we will be just repeating ourselves and so its unnecessary to go into further detail, anyone who is following this conversation can simply read Rev 6 and Rev 11 and decide for themselves if the leaders hide in fear before the tribulation, or when our Lord appears at the second coming.  And they can decide for themselves if at the 7th trumpet the kingdoms of this world become Christ's (Rev 11) during the tribulation , or at the end of the tribulation. 

[iamlamad]

 

 

 

Did you not realize that this verse (verse 2 above) is just the third verse AFTER the classic rapture verse? Paul has not quit talking about the rapture. He is telling us that the rapture will be the trigger for the Day of the Lord. The Day and the rapture are back to back events that cannot be separated; when the rapture occurs, the church age is over, and it becomes the Day of the Lord.

 

Note that Paul gives us a paradigm in that passage: he compares two groups of people at this great and sudden event we call the rapture: those in darkness get "sudden destruction" while those living in Christ get raptured and get to "live together with Him." This "sudden destruction" will be the earthquake caused by the dead in Christ rising, and this same earthquake John tells us is the start of the Day of the Lord.

 

So WHEN does the day of the Lord begin? The truth is, it begins the moment after the rapture. So you wish to call His coming at the rapture the "second" coming? I am fine with that. But then His coming on the white horse seven plus years later must be His third coming.

 

Do people actually SEE Christ at the rapture event when this great earthquake takes place? Or do they just imagine Him seated on His throne, about to unleash the Day of the Lord upon them? It does not really say that they see Him; only that they try to hide from Him. They KNOW it is the Day of the Lord. So  why don't people today believe John that it is the start of the Day?  I am still open on this: will Jesus be seen by the world at His pretrib rapture coming?

 

OF COURSE life goes on after the rapture. But it will be totally different. Fear will grip everyone.it will be seven plus years before Jesus returns with His bride to the battle of Armageddon.  Soon after the rapture, the trumpet judgments will begin. And the Beast will be on every TV everywhere in the world, saying that he has all the answers.

 

LAMAD

 

 

I quoted two verses to support my position. The first verse I quoted from is 1 Thessalonians 5 which describes the day of the Lord as a day of sudden destruction. So your claim that the 6th seal is the "opening salvo of the day of the Lord" is incorrect, because the day of the Lord is the final day of destruction, not an opening salvo. And yes I do realise the close association of this "day of destruction" with the rapture... this rapture according to 1 Thess 4 occurs at "the coming of the Lord". So at the coming of the Lord we have the day of the Lord, and we have the rapture and a day of destruction. interesting pre-trib rapture view you have there LAMAD.

 

Secondly I feel you are in denial of the actual wording of the 6th seal of Rev 6... they are obviously terrified of God and run and hide. To place this event before the second coming is incredulous. The event of the leaders of the world running and hiding in absolute fear of God occurs at the second coming... if one wishes to take the bible at face value. 

 

Everyone can read anything into the text, the bible is open to interpretation. But I believe its pretty obvious that Revelation is a series of visions regarding the second coming, and these are not fulfilled consecutively but all the visions end at the second coming.

 

So Paul's "sudden destruction" has some kind of time stamp on it so you know it is the "final" day? HOW did you get "final day" from 1 Thes. 5?  I think that part came from your imagination. if you look at Old Testament passages, the day of the Lord is certainly destruction, but it does not all come in one day. John TELLS US when it starts; with this earthquake at the 6th seal. There are many chapters in revelation after the first seal before we get to the END.

 

They know more that people today know: they know the SIGNS of the start of the Day of the Lord: a great, worldwide earthquake, then signs in the sun and moon. Why is it THEY recognized the start of the Day of the Lord, and writers on this forum don't?  You do realize, to get you your theory, you have to move the 6th seal to chapter 19, where John CLEARLY shows Jesus' coming? I happen to believe that God and John knew what they were doing in writing Revelation, and we have no right and no need to rearrange it to fit a theory. I simply believe John, that the day of the Lord begins in chapter 6 and continues on through most of the book.

 

If you feel the need to rearrange, I can only tell you, your theory will be proven wrong when these events take place. You are trying to open the scroll and read what is inside before you get all the seals opened to release the scroll. It simply will not work. The trumpet judgments are INSIDE the scroll and cannot be accessed until all 7 seals are opened. The way Revelation is written, NO vial will be poured out until all 7 trumpets are sounded, and NO trumpet can be sounded until all seals are opened on the scroll. I see that it makes perfect sense as it is written. I formed my beliefs on what was written, so I had no need to rearrange.

 

Finally, remember that those Pharisees in Jesus day THOUGHT they knew the Old Covenant. But they could see only ONE coming of their Messiah, when after the fact we can clearly see two comings in the Old. Now, in the New Covenant we find the same thing: there is truly two more comings, but it seems many see only one. it is absolutely true, the Bride must BE in heaven in Rev. 19 to attend the marriage and supper, for the marriage will certainly take place there. There are really two reasons for the pretrib rapture: to get the Bride to the wedding, and because God has NO DESIRE for His children to suffer under HIS WRATH.

 

Did you ever sit with pencil and paper and try to fit everything that must happen in your theory into just 3 1/2 years? Did you think about rumors of wars? Rumors can take YEARS. Wars can take many years. Pestilences can take months into years. How long do you give each rider of the horses to ride? Do all four ride at once in your theory? Do they ride to the end? John tells us one trumpet judgment will last 5 months. If EACH trumpet lasted five months, and we allowed two months for people to repent after, that would make 7 months each times 6 trumpets, which equals the entire 42 months JUST FOR TRUMPETS (I cannot count the 7th for it marks the midpoint of the week). Somehow your theory attempts to cram everything into one 42 month period. Of course with God all things are possible, but IS THAT THE INTENT OF THE AUTHOR?

 

I believe the first seals were opened when Jesus ascended (just what John tells us) and we are now waiting on the 6th seal. That means NONE Of the seals are a part of the 70th week of Daniel; only the 7th marks the beginning. Then the trumpet judgments come in the first 42 months, and the vials in the last 42 months. It is the order John gives us.

 

LAMAD

 

 

 

Like you , I believe the seals occur mainly before the tribulation. I believe the end-points of most of John's visions in Revelation occur at the second coming.

 

You seem to see Revelation as a long vision unfolding in sequence, I see it as a series of visions. therefore I am not "re-arranging" Revelation as you allege. It is simply a number of visions that John had , mainly about the second coming. Due to your preconceived notions of Revelation, you are failing to see the obvious, that the day of the Lord is the second coming, and just like Isaiah 2, people run and hide in fear on that final day of the restoration of Israel. This is the same day of wrath, and destruction , and the day of the Lord as mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 5. 

 

From this point I feel we will be just repeating ourselves and so its unnecessary to go into further detail, anyone who is following this conversation can simply read Rev 6 and Rev 11 and decide for themselves if the leaders hide in fear before the tribulation, or when our Lord appears at the second coming.  And they can decide for themselves if at the 7th trumpet the kingdoms of this world become Christ's (Rev 11) during the tribulation , or at the end of the tribulation. 

 

If this is NOT one long vision, please pick out place where you see one vision ending and another beginning. I find 6 place where John used something like "after this" I saw...

 

It seems much more likely to me that this is one long vision. But even if it is not, it makes more sense that God would put things in sequence, as He did in Mathew 24.

 

If the day of the Lord does not START with the 6th seal, then where do you see the beginning? It seems you find several endings but no beginning.

 

When Paul mentions the day of the Lord, He certainly ties it to the rapture. I think you and I agree there. But we disagree as to when that is.

 

I don't think you have answered the impossible question to answer for your theory: HOW and WHEN will you get to the marriage and supper? Was it your theory that He comes TWICE at the end; first to take His bride to the marriage, and then He comes again for the battle of Armageddon?

 

LAMAD

[ARGOSY]

If this is NOT one long vision, please pick out place where you see one vision ending and another beginning. I find 6 place where John used something like "after this" I saw...

 

 

It seems much more likely to me that this is one long vision. But even if it is not, it makes more sense that God would put things in sequence, as He did in Mathew 24.

 

If the day of the Lord does not START with the 6th seal, then where do you see the beginning? It seems you find several endings but you beginning.

 

When Paul mentions the day of the Lord, He certainly ties it to the rapture. I think you and I agree there. But we disagree as to when that is.

 

I don't think you have answered the impossible question to answer for your theory: HOW and WHEN will you get to the marriage and supper? Was it your theory that He comes TWICE at the end; first to take His bride to the marriage, and then He comes again for the battle of Armageddon?

 

LAMAD

 

 

I'm not sure what you mean about putting "things in sequence". If Revelation is a series of visions about the end-times, then they could overlap and not be in a time sequence.

 

Rev 1-3  a prophetic message to the churches

Rev 4     a vision of heaven

Rev 5 until Rev 8:1   a vision about the 7 seals ending with the second coming (seal 6)  and silence in heaven (seal 7)

Rev 8:2 - Rev 11      a vision about the 7 angels with 7 trumpets ending with the second coming (kingdoms belong to Christ)

Rev 12   vision about Satan and Israel also focussing on the great tribulation (3.5 years)

Rev 13   vision about the beast , also focussing on the great tribulation (3.5 years) 

Rev 14  vision about various end-times events

Rev 15-16  vision about the seven bowls of wrath ending in Armageddon and the great earthquake (second coming events)

Rev 17-21  vision starting with the beast and whore city (Rev 17/18), Rev19 refers to the 2nd coming, and Rev 20-21 after the 2nd coming

 

Context shows us that a new vision is introduced.  Sometimes the phrase "and then I saw" indicates the new vision, but sometimes its only the new context and new symbols which indicate that its a new vision.  So in total, I believe there are 9 separate visions, the first two are not focussed on the end-times, the other 7 concern various aspects of the end-times. (Satan's role/ antichrist's role /the evil city's role/ Armageddon/ seals / trumpets/ bowls)