a-seeker Posted August 20, 2014 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 589 Content Per Day: 0.16 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/06/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted August 20, 2014 This OP is from someone admittedly ignorant of science. It is not intended to be controversial. I am not raising the issue of whether miracles can happen; I believe they can. I am more curious as to the behavior of nature when a miracle is occurring. Perhaps a concrete example will help: We are told that on two occasions Jesus multiplied bread. I admit I have always had difficulty imaging such an event--after all, if I were looking at one of the baskets, what would I see? Would the loaves be bubbling and expanding; would there suddenly appear a new loaf. But I also admit that the inability of the imagination to reproduce an event does not make that event impossible. What I am really interested in is the chemistry required for that to take place: After all, we have something appearing that wasn't there before (new loaves). Loaves are, I assume, made of atoms. That means these atoms had to come from somewhere? Where did they come from? Was there an enormous shift of atoms as some from the ground move through a disciple and ultimately come into alignment with other atoms so that finally we have a new piece of bread? And yes, I am aware that I probably just exposed my embarrassing deficiency in atoms. clb Oh, other miracles are forthcoming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
He giveth more grace Posted August 20, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 123 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,049 Content Per Day: 0.32 Reputation: 267 Days Won: 9 Joined: 10/22/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted August 20, 2014 Ours is not to reason how, but praise God for the miracle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted August 20, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 595 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,029 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,770 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted August 20, 2014 About 25 years ago there was a young girl just preteen as I remember. She had been sick most of her life, constantly on antibiotics from infection after infection. Finally the doctors sent her to our Children's Hospital here in Oklahoma City and after a series of tests and ex-rays it was discovered that she had a third kidney that was between the other two and toward her back...... the kidney was upside down and had no connection to her bladder. The girl basically had had a kidney infection her whole life. They couldn't do any operation at that time for it was too dangerous with an active infection so they put her on a very strong antibiotic and scheduled the operation for a couple of weeks later. She as expected got better being on the antibiotic. As the week went by, they took her to the front of the church and anointed her with oil and the entire congregation came and laid hands on her and prayed.... one after the other until it was complete. The surgeons were very concerned about removing the kidney for on one had ever had to do so and they were concerned about damaging different arteries and veins along with nerves that might also be different so they requested a high definition CT scan to see what all was there and what they should avoid. Long story short when the CT was finished, it did not show the other kidney, and it appears that the girl was feeling so good because she was actually healed of the problem... It was interesting to me that the pastors wife was present when the doctors showed the parents the CT scans and explained that there was no need for the surgery. She told me that the Radiologist was making guesses as to why the ex-rays showed one thing and the CT scan showed another and as the doctor and he walked out of the room she heard the doctor say something to the effect....... Hey I know your new here. If this is your first miracle to experience, you need to prepare yourself for you will see many here. They said that the doctor just sort of took it all in stride like it was no big deal.... i kept track of the girl for about five years and she didn't have any setbacks that I'm aware of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a-seeker Posted August 20, 2014 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 589 Content Per Day: 0.16 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/06/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 20, 2014 This is an interesting train of thought. God can create something (atoms) from nothing. There are somethings that we cannot measure though, like say annointing or faith. And when I say faith I am not speaking on the measure of faith unto salvation or a belief one holds. There are 9 gifts of The Spirit and one of them is the gift of faith, and it works closely with the gift of miracles for example multiplying bread or turning water into wine or moving mountians and possibly healing(God has never healed anyone thru me so I am going on what others have said on healing) I have experienced the gift of faith and its not something words can explain really. I would say God can just make it or create it from nothing. Its really a work of The Holy Spirit so it is kinda difficult to get our heads wraped around or explain because its orgin is not physicaly measurable. I imagine how the world is going we will probably get to see some bread multiplying soon, but thats just a guess. 1 corithians 14:1 I like the first point you make (not that I dislike the rest) about God creating something from nothing. For instance, many people have trouble with or outright reject the virgin birth; yet they have little difficulty accepting Creation ex-nihilo. They also (and I as well) wonder what genes Jesus had if he had only one biological parent. But is it impossible that a new act of creation ex-nihilo were occurring, inserting itself into this one...? clb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a-seeker Posted August 20, 2014 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 589 Content Per Day: 0.16 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/06/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 20, 2014 I was wondering if there were any science fanatics who might shed light on the molecular processes that such a miracle as multiplying bread would have to involve. Another miracle, in John we see Jesus pass through walls. I am told this is not physically impossible; if the atoms of our bodies were so aligned that they met no resistance in the opposing atoms of the walls (like ships passing in the night). Could a similar maneuver be made to conceive Jesus' walking on water, though in the opposite way? clb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted August 20, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 595 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,029 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,770 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted August 20, 2014 I was wondering if there were any science fanatics who might shed light on the molecular processes that such a miracle as multiplying bread would have to involve. Another miracle, in John we see Jesus pass through walls. I am told this is not physically impossible; if the atoms of our bodies were so aligned that they met no resistance in the opposing atoms of the walls (like ships passing in the night). Could a similar maneuver be made to conceive Jesus' walking on water, though in the opposite way? clb If you study "m" string physics it becomes possible to transition between dimensions and move through anything solid on earth. The strings are not vibrating at the same frequency and they are not really part of our forth dimension at times. it's my understanding that the spirit world we hear so much about are dimensions above the fifth and the angels can come and go at will. God exists at the tenth or eleventh and that realm is just crazy for us to try and comprehend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerryR34 Posted August 28, 2014 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 588 Content Per Day: 0.15 Reputation: 82 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/22/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/12/1969 Share Posted August 28, 2014 Ours is not to reason how, but praise God for the miracle. ugggg...yes, by all means we should just stay ignorant. do you believe that is what God wants? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
He giveth more grace Posted August 28, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 123 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,049 Content Per Day: 0.32 Reputation: 267 Days Won: 9 Joined: 10/22/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted August 28, 2014 Ours is not to reason how, but praise God for the miracle. ugggg...yes, by all means we should just stay ignorant. do you believe that is what God wants?There are just some things that are out our domain and how God does thing is one of them, let God be God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightoverloadtheconfusedpiece Posted August 28, 2014 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 15 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/27/2009 Status: Offline Share Posted August 28, 2014 Hello ConnorLiamBrown, Lets look at other miracles too. 1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. ( Genesis 1:1) Resurrection of Christ. Jesus Christ raised from dead. 40 but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. 41 He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. (Acts 10) 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. (1 Thessalonians 4) Another miracle to be performed. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. (1 Thessalonians 4) Greetings ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Persuaded Posted August 28, 2014 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 249 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 107 Days Won: 2 Joined: 06/29/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted August 28, 2014 This is one of those "how big is your God?" kind of questions. In the first verse of Genesis God created (bara, cause to exist) about 10^80 atoms. There are jewish commentaries that describe Him as speaking them into existence, presciently describing John 1:3- ...and without (the Word) was not any thing made that was made. If you can get your head around that, the rest is trivial. If your God is smaller than that, may I suggest an upgrade? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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