Guest Jesse Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 I agree that once saved Always saved. God is not an Indian giver. Once u receive him u are sealed forever even if u backslide u r still his! I don't understand how some Christians can believe u can loose your salvation! Weak faith I guess. I myself have backslid n I can tell u every single day god was chastising me, pulling me back, moving the sinful ppl out of my life! He fights for us, for we r NOT our own! Praise Jesus! We must return to our maker less we live in misery. The only happiness for the Christian is when they abide in Christ. Non the less, once saved Always saved!!!! Tera. Who decides who is saved and who is not? Is it not God? Whom can say who is born again or not? is it not God? Why are we placing ourselves in that position to decide, who is and who is not saved or born again? Why will there be many so called born again christians to fall away? Once born again;can one be unborn again? and reborn again? Must understand what born again and saved truly is. This is used to sweet talk the flock. jesse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Bradley Posted August 21, 2014 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 30 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 16 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/20/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted August 21, 2014 Hi Firestormx, You asked a very valid question concerning John 20:22, and it brings up some interesting points about God's Truth. In the Gospel according to John: Jesus answered and said unto him (Nicodemus), "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (John 3:3). The Kingdom of God is everything that God IS. That would include the fact that Jesus is God. Anyone who is not born-again cannot see that Jesus is God. This brings up a question: Did the disciples at any point during Jesus' earthly ministry know that Jesus was God? The final disciple to physical see Jesus in His resurrected body was doubting Thomas. Thomas was not around for the John 20:22 experience. But later Jesus appeared to Thomas: Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. (John 20:27-28) Thomas had to be born-again in order to know that Jesus was God and be able to make that statement. When did Thomas become born-again? Jesus answers that question for us in John: "Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." (John 3:7-8) It stands to reason that all the disciples were already born-again before the John 20:22 experience. Luke tells us: And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high. (Luke 24:49) We now have the context of John 20:22 being explained by Luke 24:49. The Bible explains itself quite often. Jesus was giving a prophecy, not concerning being born-again as a first infilling of the Holy Spirit, but rather as the receiving of empowerment by the Holy Spirit. The point is that the Holy Spirit has multiple functions in our lives. You could look upon the breathing of Jesus upon his disciples as a sealing of the promise to come. So, to answer your question: No, the disciples did not receive a twice infilling. You could look at it as an activating of an extra function of the Holy Spirit. As an additional note, you are right, God is not a respecter of persons, but He is sovereign to give or withhold anything from anyone's life and when He gives something to someone, it is always in His perfect timing for that particular person. We can ask for all the gifts and empowerments of the Spirit, but God is wise to know what we need and what we can handle. Every promise from God is conditional. There is nothing that gives us entitlement to reach up into the heavenly and pull anything down to ourselves. We are totally reliant upon God and His graciousness to bless us. And believe me, He wants very, very much to bless us, if we'd only open our hearts fully to Him. May God richly bless you, my brother in Jesus, Agape, Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firestormx Posted August 21, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,113 Content Per Day: 0.26 Reputation: 442 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/06/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/17/1975 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Hi Firestormx, So, to answer your question: No, the disciples did not receive a twice infilling. You could look at it as an activating of an extra function of the Holy Spirit. May God richly bless you, my brother in Jesus, Agape, Greg I do appreciate the thoughtful response, however the bolded part contradicts what scripture states. In John and in Acts both the bible says they received the Holy Spirit. That's what the bible says, not me. I disagree with you. They couldn't have been born again before the Resurrection because Jesus had not been sacrificed for our sins yet. That's my point. first they received the Holy Spirit for salvation in John, and then was baptized in the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost that they might receive power from on high in the book of Acts. There is a difference between being filled and being baptized. Firestormx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Bradley Posted August 21, 2014 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 30 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 16 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/20/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted August 21, 2014 Hello Firestormx, I believe that we are saying the same thing, but apparently you do not like my usage of the word "Infilling". What I mean by infilling is the depositing of the Holy Spirit for our new birth, a depositing of God's Spirit that never leaves us while we are here on this earth. Obviously, a second infilling is never needed. Baptism in the Holy Spirit, is a different type of manifestation of the same One Spirit of God. So, I think we are saying the same thing, but perhaps I have misunderstood your original question of "So why did the Apostles receive the Holy Spirit twice after the resurrection?" I took that question to mean that you were wondering about if the disciples got a double born-again experience. If I am being confusing to you, please rephrase your question to clarify it for me, ok? If you were asking the question rhetorically, meaning that it should be obvious that there is a difference between the two receptions of the Holy Spirit, then I apologize that I did not recognize that. I would like to clear this up, if you don't mind responding to this reply. Thank you, Always with Agape, Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firestormx Posted August 21, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,113 Content Per Day: 0.26 Reputation: 442 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/06/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/17/1975 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Hello Firestormx, I believe that we are saying the same thing, but apparently you do not like my usage of the word "Infilling". What I mean by infilling is the depositing of the Holy Spirit for our new birth, a depositing of God's Spirit that never leaves us while we are here on this earth. Obviously, a second infilling is never needed. Baptism in the Holy Spirit, is a different type of manifestation of the same One Spirit of God. So, I think we are saying the same thing, but perhaps I have misunderstood your original question of "So why did the Apostles receive the Holy Spirit twice after the resurrection?" I took that question to mean that you were wondering about if the disciples got a double born-again experience. If I am being confusing to you, please rephrase your question to clarify it for me, ok? If you were asking the question rhetorically, meaning that it should be obvious that there is a difference between the two receptions of the Holy Spirit, then I apologize that I did not recognize that. I would like to clear this up, if you don't mind responding to this reply. Thank you, Always with Agape, Greg I think your right that we are saying the same thing. Yes, your usage of the word infilling is what through me off. I didn't ask the question very well either. I thought you were saying the 12 apostles were born again before the crucifixion and resurrection. Meaning they were saved, born again without the need for Christ to pay the penalty for our sins, like there was another way to get saved. Yes, I was also hoping people would see it was rhetorical and that there is a difference between the 2 receptions of the Holy Spirit. I should have just said it bluntly. My apologies. I just was trying to show in opposition to the original post that there is a difference between the 2 receptions of the Holy Spirit and that just because there is an overflow of the Spirit of God at the initial baptism of the Holy Spirit manifested as Divine utterance that is not understood or maybe even mocked, doesn't mean it is not of God( Just like what happened at the day of Pentecost. ). I Apologize to you for any misunderstanding. God bless you Firestormx Joseph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Tera. Why will there be many so called born again christians to fall away? jesse. Because they were never born again. If GOD has written the believer's name in the Lamb's Book of Life (the Church), wouldn't He have made a mistake by writing it there in the first place if a person can lose their salvation? Isn't GOD perfect? Isn't GOD omniscient? Isn't GOD omnipotent? Is a human being more powerful than He? An Angel? Satan? Who than can snatch one of us out of His hand? Who then can cause The Shepherd (Jesus) to loose even one of His Sheep? You? Me? Who? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jesse Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Tera. Why will there be many so called born again christians to fall away? jesse. Because they were never born again. If GOD has written the believer's name in the Lamb's Book of Life (the Church), wouldn't He have made a mistake by writing it there in the first place if a person can lose their salvation? Isn't GOD perfect? Isn't GOD omniscient? Isn't GOD omnipotent? Is a human being more powerful than He? An Angel? Satan? Who than can snatch one of us out of His hand? Who then can cause The Shepherd (Jesus) to loose even one of His Sheep? You? Me? Who? This born again thing is a big misunderstanding,and so is being saved. The pastors and priests have been buttering and sugaring the flock. And they themselves dont know. Jesus said: when you are born OF THE SPIRIT.YOU ARE SPIRIT.(physically). If the born again thing is true;then we are amongst many saints. Anyone here claiming to be a saint? jesse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Bradley Posted August 21, 2014 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 30 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 16 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/20/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted August 21, 2014 To all my brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus, I'm going to say some things that will rock your understandings of "Falling away", "Born-again", "Salvation", and "Eternal Life". What I'm hearing in this chat thread so far are the typical notions of receiving Christ to become born again and because you said the "sinner's prayer", you are saved and have eternal life and you can never lose your salvation because God won't allow it to happen. There are many assumptions within this last sentence and Biblical evidence dispels those assumptions. Because this is a multiple topic subject and because all of the concepts in quotations are intertwined, if anyone is to understand what the concepts really mean, it is best to deal with one concept at a time. So, I'm going to address the "Born-again" concept first. I'll start off by saying, "Just because you are born-again, it doesn't mean you are automatically saved and automatically have eternal life." Okay, I just ruffled a few feathers and some of you are now crying out, "Heresy! This guy needs to be stoned to death!" Well, I'm glad this is not Old Testament times - LOL. Let's start with some Scripture: (Romans 3:10-18) As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes. What is the Apostle Paul saying here in Romans? He is describing our natural human state of being. He is describing the human race that is in a fallen state because of Adam's sin in the Garden of Eve. No one in a fallen state, without the direct intervention of God Himself touching that person, has the inclination to even seek God!!! All of you reading this (and me included) were all born in a fallen state, having no desire toward God. If you can accept this fact, then here's a question for you: How could you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior in your fallen state? Your natural inclination according to Romans 3:10-18 is to reject and resist God at every level. Jesus gives us that answer in: (John 6:44) "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him…" The word translated as 'draw' comes from a Greek word which more literally means 'drag'. It puts a better understanding to heart when we read the more literal translation: "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me drag him…" It more accurately describes what our true condition was before accepting Jesus as our Lord and Savior. (John 3:3-8) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. Being 'born-again', 'born anew', 'born of the Spirit', they all mean the same thing, so let's not get hung up on which is the best wording. The Greek most literal translation into English is 'born from above'. The point that Jesus is making is that the Holy Spirit comes to enter us and how it happens should be of no concern to us. The purpose of the Holy Spirit entering us as our new birth, is not to change our flesh, but to give us sight to see the Kingdom of God, and to give us an inclination to seek God. The point that I'm making is that we all had to become born-again before we could see that Jesus is the Christ and God. The Kingdom of God is everything that God IS, including Jesus being in and of that Kingdom. The notion that we accept Jesus and then we become instantly born again does not comply with Scripture. You were born-again before you ever came to accepting Jesus to be your Lord and God. Okay, what does that have to do with "Falling away"? If you can understand that being born-again is not by our choice, it is the sole discretion of God, the Father, who determines who will be born-again and when it will happen, then you can begin to understand that being born-again does not instantly make you 'saved', nor does it instantly give you 'eternal life'. Being born-again is merely one step in a process of getting to the place of salvation and eternal life. So, to answer the tough question, "Can a born-again person reject Jesus?" The answer is yes, because that person despite being born-again has yet to accept Jesus. "Can a born-again believer reject Jesus?" Yes, again, because we still have our free-will even after saying the 'sinner's prayer'. "Can a born-again believer throw away His salvation?" Well, who said he was saved in the first place? If you believe you are saved right now, every time you sin, you throw your salvation away, but by the grace of God and the forgiveness of Jesus and the prompting of the Holy Spirit, hopefully, you rebound in the hope. As I mentioned, we are all in a process with regards to Salvation and Eternal Life. In our human nature, which is still very much alive within us, we want to "know" that we have Eternal Life. We don't like hanging in mid-air, so the well-meaning theologians try to convince us and themselves that through the cause and effect of saying the 'sinner's prayer', you are saved and have eternal life, but God has given us a better way for any assurance that is desired: (John 14:21-23) He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. Can you feel the manifest presence of God in your heart? It is God's way of giving you a sure assurance that His promise of Eternal Life will be given to you. For those of you who cannot feel God in your heart, don't be discouraged. Not everyone will feel the manifest presence of God, because not everyone will reach this point in the process of salvation. As long as you, as a believer, are seeking the Kingdom, God will continue to hold you in His hands and honor His promise of Salvation as you hold onto Him. He will strengthen you with His Spirit when you need it. Anyone who simply has a figurative relationship with God is in danger of falling away. When those who think of themselves as Christians are confronted with persecution and the Mark of the Beast, those with figurative relationships will likely buckle and fall away. But, those Christians who are strengthened by God's Spirit because their relationships are truly personal and intimate with God, they will stand in their Faith and not fall away. My prayer for all of you is to experience John 14:21-23, if you have yet to experience what Jesus promises. I can tell you from firsthand experience with our Lord, that He is faithful and He Loves us with so much graciousness, it goes beyond our comprehension. Ask Him to show you His Love for you. In His Love, Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Tera. Why will there be many so called born again christians to fall away? jesse. Because they were never born again. If GOD has written the believer's name in the Lamb's Book of Life (the Church), wouldn't He have made a mistake by writing it there in the first place if a person can lose their salvation? Isn't GOD perfect? Isn't GOD omniscient? Isn't GOD omnipotent? Is a human being more powerful than He? An Angel? Satan? Who than can snatch one of us out of His hand? Who then can cause The Shepherd (Jesus) to loose even one of His Sheep? You? Me? Who? This born again thing is a big misunderstanding,and so is being saved. The pastors and priests have been buttering and sugaring the flock. And they themselves dont know. Jesus said: when you are born OF THE SPIRIT.YOU ARE SPIRIT.(physically). If the born again thing is true;then we are amongst many saints. Anyone here claiming to be a saint? jesse. I am. I am not perfect, by any means. But I am saved. I have been born both of water and of Spirit. I have been born again. I am neither Greek nor Jew. I am of a new race. I am in the family of GOD. And I won't even respond to the false theology of one losing their salvation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jesse Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 Parker1. There is no need for name calling as a chtistian. If a christian claims he has the spirit;He should walk by the spirit. You should not be shaken; if you are saved and born again. Baptism in water is just a symbol of the real thing,which is baptism in the Holy spirit. When one is baptised in water;he had made a decision to follow Christ. He is just enrering that door,but behind that door, is a long narrow path that he must follow. A life time narrow path. Many have fallen off that path.The world has reclaimed him. To claim that he is saved and born again is silly,because one can not claim the reward,before crossing the finish line. One can not swim across troubled waters and scream: I am saved. He is only saved when he has reached solid ground. To be born again is a reward;and that comes when reward is due. Jesus will come with His reward;we can not decide who will have that reward. Only God knows who is worthy. I know many will be upset to read this ,but not to reveal it to my brothers/sist, is also a sin. The flock have been made drunk with the wine of the scribes.. Shalom. jesse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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