Which day is the Sabbath and is it still valid today?

[Guest shiloh357]

To all who are saying there is no command for gentiles to keep the sabbath I would also like to point out there is not one verse where Jesus says to forget the sabbath either.

 

Well if Gentiles are not required to keep the Sabbath in the first place, then your point is really a non starter. Jesus would not address the Sabbath one way or the other to Gentile believers and more to the point,  Jesus' ministry on earth was to Israel and they were keeping the Sabbath.  Everything Jesus said relative to the Sabbath was aimed at Jews, not Gentiles.

 

I want to further point out I am not trying to argue a point with anyone as it says in Galatians 3 that the law is a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ and that we might be justified by faith. I get your point. Truly I do. My point is only that Jesus never said to totaly forget aboit it.

 

It's not that anyone should forget it.  The point is that Gentiles believers are not required to observe it.

 

 

And you can choose to not participate, but the purpose is to turn our attention to God. Why would you not want to participate in that? i look foward to a day to raise my hands towards the heavens and cry aloud with other believers holy holy holy. I look foward to a day to seek Him in prayer and be fed with the written Word of God. I think its pleasing to God and i am find it easier to make it through the week because it makes my spirit stronger in me.

 

The purpose of the Sabbath is not to turn your attention toward God.  That is something that happens every day, not just on the Sabbath.  The Sabbath is a day of rest.  That is the primary interpretive motif of that commandment.

 

The primary importance for the Christian regarding the Sabbath is that Jesus is our Sabbath Rest.  When we enter into Christ, we enter into God's rest.  We enter into His peace and wholeness.  Honestly, there is nothing that keeping the Sabbath day would do for me that I haven't already found in Jesus.   For me to feel I need to keep the Sabbath day would require me to go backwards, spiritually.  It would mean that Jesus isn't enough.

 

[shinethelight14]

 

 

 

To use NT as an argument is poor. The early christian days they have never had a New Testament readings. All they have was Tanakh. So try again...as if  there was no NT

 

Not is not a poor argument.  They may not have had the finalized canon of 27 books established, but even Paul and Peter were beginning to recognize a NT canon.   The letters of Paul were being passed around from church to church, as were the Gospels.   They were being taught by the apostles.   Nowhere were any Gentiles in any of the letters or the Gospels commanded to observe the Sabbath.   If it was required of them, there would have been plenty of admonitions to all of the churches in the NT.  But none exist.

 

Even if we go only by the OT, no Gentiles were expected to keep the Torah unless they converted to the Israelite religion.  Then they had to be circumcised and all that. They had to become part of Israel. 

 

But no one outside of Israel, even in the OT were ever commanded to keep the Sabbath.  The Sabbath was only given to Israel in the OT and you cannot find ONE commandment even in the OT that contradicts that fact.

 

Instead of using NT verses, show me in the Tanakh that says sabbath day is not for gentiles

 

That's the point I am making.  You don't have any verses in the Tanakh or the NT  commanding Gentiles to keep the Sabbath.   The Sabbath, as a commandment is only given to Israel, in Exodus 20:8-11; 31:13-17; Lev. 23:3; Deut. 5:12-15.   

 

There are no commandments given to the Gentile nations requiring them to keep the Sabbath.   So the truth is that it is YOU that have the burden of proof when you claim that the Bible requires Gentiles to keep the Sabbath.  You don't have any at all.   I think you know that, too.  I don't have to come up with a verse that says, "the Sabbath is not for Gentiles" because that hasn't been my argument.  My argument has been that Gentiles are free to keep the Sabbath day and they are free not to keep the Sabbath day.  It is not compulsory on Gentiles.

 

So far, you have not been able to drum up ONE verses of Scripture to support your position that Gentiles are required to keep the Sabbath day.   Your argument is impotent and devoid of truth

 

Isaiah 56:6 

“Also the sons of the foreigner

Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,

And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—

Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,

And holds fast My covenant—

7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain,

And make them joyful in My house of prayer.

Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices

Will be accepted on My altar;

For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.”

8 The Lord God, who gathers the outcasts of Israel, says,

“Yet I will gather to him

Others besides those who are gathered to him.”

 

 

This passages proves that a gentile who is a foreigner can keep the sabbath  who join themelves to the Lord. 

I've asked a rabbi who I am friends with. I asked him that can gentile keep the sabbath. He said if he wanted to according to the book of Isaiah.

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

 

 

To use NT as an argument is poor. The early christian days they have never had a New Testament readings. All they have was Tanakh. So try again...as if  there was no NT

 

Not is not a poor argument.  They may not have had the finalized canon of 27 books established, but even Paul and Peter were beginning to recognize a NT canon.   The letters of Paul were being passed around from church to church, as were the Gospels.   They were being taught by the apostles.   Nowhere were any Gentiles in any of the letters or the Gospels commanded to observe the Sabbath.   If it was required of them, there would have been plenty of admonitions to all of the churches in the NT.  But none exist.

 

Even if we go only by the OT, no Gentiles were expected to keep the Torah unless they converted to the Israelite religion.  Then they had to be circumcised and all that. They had to become part of Israel. 

 

But no one outside of Israel, even in the OT were ever commanded to keep the Sabbath.  The Sabbath was only given to Israel in the OT and you cannot find ONE commandment even in the OT that contradicts that fact.

 

Instead of using NT verses, show me in the Tanakh that says sabbath day is not for gentiles

 

That's the point I am making.  You don't have any verses in the Tanakh or the NT  commanding Gentiles to keep the Sabbath.   The Sabbath, as a commandment is only given to Israel, in Exodus 20:8-11; 31:13-17; Lev. 23:3; Deut. 5:12-15.   

 

There are no commandments given to the Gentile nations requiring them to keep the Sabbath.   So the truth is that it is YOU that have the burden of proof when you claim that the Bible requires Gentiles to keep the Sabbath.  You don't have any at all.   I think you know that, too.  I don't have to come up with a verse that says, "the Sabbath is not for Gentiles" because that hasn't been my argument.  My argument has been that Gentiles are free to keep the Sabbath day and they are free not to keep the Sabbath day.  It is not compulsory on Gentiles.

 

So far, you have not been able to drum up ONE verses of Scripture to support your position that Gentiles are required to keep the Sabbath day.   Your argument is impotent and devoid of truth

 

Isaiah 56:6 

“Also the sons of the foreigner

Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,

And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—

Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,

And holds fast My covenant—

7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain,

And make them joyful in My house of prayer.

Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices

Will be accepted on My altar;

For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.”

8 The Lord God, who gathers the outcasts of Israel, says,

“Yet I will gather to him

Others besides those who are gathered to him.”

 

 

This passages proves that a gentile who is a foreigner can keep the sabbath  who join themelves to the Lord. 

I've asked a rabbi who I am friends with. I asked him that can gentile keep the sabbath. He said if he wanted to according to the book of Isaiah.

 

Honestly, do you read anything i have posted?    I never said that Gentiles can't keep the Sabbath.  I have said over and over and over that any Gentile is free to keep the Sabbath if they choose to.  I have not said that Gentiles can't keep the Sabbath.

 

So you really haven't provided any verse that says that God REQUIRES Gentiles to keep the Sabbath.  My argument has been laid out very consistently. 

 

You are trying to refute an argument I never raised.   Sorry, but your position is still empty and impotent.

[coheir]

 

 

 

 

To use NT as an argument is poor. The early christian days they have never had a New Testament readings. All they have was Tanakh. So try again...as if  there was no NT

 

Not is not a poor argument.  They may not have had the finalized canon of 27 books established, but even Paul and Peter were beginning to recognize a NT canon.   The letters of Paul were being passed around from church to church, as were the Gospels.   They were being taught by the apostles.   Nowhere were any Gentiles in any of the letters or the Gospels commanded to observe the Sabbath.   If it was required of them, there would have been plenty of admonitions to all of the churches in the NT.  But none exist.

 

Even if we go only by the OT, no Gentiles were expected to keep the Torah unless they converted to the Israelite religion.  Then they had to be circumcised and all that. They had to become part of Israel. 

 

But no one outside of Israel, even in the OT were ever commanded to keep the Sabbath.  The Sabbath was only given to Israel in the OT and you cannot find ONE commandment even in the OT that contradicts that fact.

 

Instead of using NT verses, show me in the Tanakh that says sabbath day is not for gentiles

 

That's the point I am making.  You don't have any verses in the Tanakh or the NT  commanding Gentiles to keep the Sabbath.   The Sabbath, as a commandment is only given to Israel, in Exodus 20:8-11; 31:13-17; Lev. 23:3; Deut. 5:12-15.   

 

There are no commandments given to the Gentile nations requiring them to keep the Sabbath.   So the truth is that it is YOU that have the burden of proof when you claim that the Bible requires Gentiles to keep the Sabbath.  You don't have any at all.   I think you know that, too.  I don't have to come up with a verse that says, "the Sabbath is not for Gentiles" because that hasn't been my argument.  My argument has been that Gentiles are free to keep the Sabbath day and they are free not to keep the Sabbath day.  It is not compulsory on Gentiles.

 

So far, you have not been able to drum up ONE verses of Scripture to support your position that Gentiles are required to keep the Sabbath day.   Your argument is impotent and devoid of truth

 

Isaiah 56:6 

“Also the sons of the foreigner

Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,

And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—

Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,

And holds fast My covenant—

7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain,

And make them joyful in My house of prayer.

Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices

Will be accepted on My altar;

For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.”

8 The Lord God, who gathers the outcasts of Israel, says,

“Yet I will gather to him

Others besides those who are gathered to him.”

 

 

This passages proves that a gentile who is a foreigner can keep the sabbath  who join themelves to the Lord. 

I've asked a rabbi who I am friends with. I asked him that can gentile keep the sabbath. He said if he wanted to according to the book of Isaiah.

 

check out Matt 23: 1-8

[John Robinson]

Man, these SDA guys are nothing if not persistent. They're tiresome as all get-out with their constant pick-pick-pick about the Sabbath, but I suppose they need more members for their cult.

 

ETA: I knew they were hard-core legalists, but I had no idea they deny the deity of Jesus. When did this happen?

[Qnts2]

Man, these SDA guys are nothing if not persistent. They're tiresome as all get-out with their constant pick-pick-pick about the Sabbath, but I suppose they need more members for their cult.

 

ETA: I knew they were hard-core legalists, but I had no idea they deny the deity of Jesus. When did this happen?

To my knowledge, SDA does not deny the deity of Jesus.

 

The following site will hopefully get you to their 28 principles:

 

http://www.adventist.org/fileadmin/adventist.org/files/articles/official-statements/28Beliefs-English.pdf

 

Trinity

 

Z2

There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three co-eternal Persons. God is immortal, all-powerful, all-knowing, above all, and ever present. He is infinite and beyond human comprehension, yet known through His self-revelation. He is forever worthy of worship, adoration, and service by the whole creation. (Deut. 6:4; Matt. 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14; Eph. 4:4-6; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Tim. 1:17; Rev. 14:7.)

Father

 

Z3

God the eternal Father is the Creator, Source, Sustainer, and Sovereign of all creation. He is just and holy, merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness. The qualities and powers exhibited in the Son and the Holy Spirit are also revelations of the Father. (Gen. 1:1; Rev. 4:11; 1 Cor. 15:28; John 3:16; 1 John 4:8; 1 Tim. 1:17; Ex. 34:6, 7; John 14:9.)

Son

 

Z4

God the eternal Son became incarnate in Jesus Christ. Through Him all things were created, the character of God is revealed, the salvation of humanity is accomplished, and the world is judged. Forever truly God, He became also truly man, Jesus the Christ. He was conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. He lived and experienced temptation as a human being, but perfectly exemplified the righteousness and love of God. By His miracles He manifested God’s power and was attested as God’s promised Messiah. He suffered and died voluntarily on the cross for our sins and in our place, was raised from the dead, and ascended to minister in the heavenly sanctuary in our behalf. He will come again in glory for the final deliverance of His people and the restoration of all things. ( John 1:1-3, 14; Col. 1:15-19; John 10:30; 14:9; Rom. 6:23; 2 Cor. 5:17-19; John 5:22; Luke 1:35; Phil. 2:5-11; Heb. 2:9-18; 1 Cor. 15:3, 4; Heb. 8:1, 2; John 14:1-3.)

[John Robinson]

Okay, but that still leaves us with the two posters here who are pushing Sabbath-keeping (which I know is a main tenent of the SDA cult), and one of the posters specifically has said he rejects Christ's deity. I was just wondering if that was a new addition to their canon.

[Qnts2]

Okay, but that still leaves us with the two posters here who are pushing Sabbath-keeping (which I know is a main tenent of the SDA cult), and one of the posters specifically has said he rejects Christ's deity. I was just wondering if that was a new addition to their canon.

 

There are other groups which promote Sabbath-keeping as a requirement.

 

I see no issue with gathering to worship on a Saturday, but do not see any requirement to worship only on a Saturday. Gathering for services can occur all 7 days of the week, and worship should happen all 7 days of the week. In the OT, services occurred in the Temple all 7 days of the week. In modern Judaism, synagogues are open for worship, all 7 days of the week.

 

There are predominantly Gentile groups which call themselves Messianic, which promote Sabbath worship. A couple of these groups deny the deity of Jesus, or do not make it a required belief.

 

One such Messianic group is called  Worldwide Nazarene Assembly of Elohim. Most Gentile Messianic groups believe in Two House theology, as does this one.  The following are two statements from their statement of faith:

 

http://nazarenespace.com/page/statement-of-faith

 

I. YHWH

We believe that YHWH is Echad (one). We believe that YHWH reveals Himself in the K'numeh or Gaunin of Avi/Abba (Father/Daddy), the Memra (Word), and the Ruach HaKodesh (Holy Spirit).

 

III. MESSIAH

We believe that Y'shua HaMashiach has come and with great joy we anticipate his return, and even though he may delay, nevertheless we endeavor to think about his return every day. We believe that the Messiah is the Word made flesh. We believe he was born of a virgin, lived a sinless life in accordance with the Torah, performed miracles, was crucified for the atonement of his people in accordance with the Scriptures, was bodily resurrected on the third day. ascended to heaven and currently sits at the right hand of YHWH. He will return at the end of this age to usher in the Kingdom of Elohim on earth and will rule the world from Jerusalem with his people Israel for one thousand years. We also believe that the Messiah Yeshua is the Torah incarnate. Just as the Torah is the way, the truth and the light, the Messiah is also the way, the truth and the light.

 

Notice, they side step the issue of the Deity of Jesus (Y'shua).

 

VI. THE ONE FAITH

We believe that there is one faith which was once and for all delivered to the set-apart-ones. We believe that Messiah did not come to create a new religion but to be the Messiah of Judaism, the one faith that was once delivered to the set-apart-ones. We believe that Nazarene Judaism is the only expression of the one true faith. We do not accept any other religion as a non-Jewish cultural expression of the one true faith.

 

 

This group was started and run by James Trimm, who claims to be Jewish, but he is not Jewish. His parents say they are not Jewish and neither is James. James attended a Messianic Judaism synagogue for a short time, and said he is a gentile while attending.  

 

(Messianic Judaism, formed by Jewish believers in Jesus meet on the Sabbath, although do not see this as a required action among Christians. Messianic Judaism believes in the deity of Jesus).

[coheir]

 

Okay, but that still leaves us with the two posters here who are pushing Sabbath-keeping (which I know is a main tenent of the SDA cult), and one of the posters specifically has said he rejects Christ's deity. I was just wondering if that was a new addition to their canon.

 

There are other groups which promote Sabbath-keeping as a requirement.

 

I see no issue with gathering to worship on a Saturday, but do not see any requirement to worship only on a Saturday. Gathering for services can occur all 7 days of the week, and worship should happen all 7 days of the week. In the OT, services occurred in the Temple all 7 days of the week. In modern Judaism, synagogues are open for worship, all 7 days of the week.

 

There are predominantly Gentile groups which call themselves Messianic, which promote Sabbath worship. A couple of these groups deny the deity of Jesus, or do not make it a required belief.

 

One such Messianic group is called  Worldwide Nazarene Assembly of Elohim. Most Gentile Messianic groups believe in Two House theology, as does this one.  The following are two statements from their statement of faith:

 

http://nazarenespace.com/page/statement-of-faith

 

I. YHWH

We believe that YHWH is Echad (one). We believe that YHWH reveals Himself in the K'numeh or Gaunin of Avi/Abba (Father/Daddy), the Memra (Word), and the Ruach HaKodesh (Holy Spirit).

 

III. MESSIAH

We believe that Y'shua HaMashiach has come and with great joy we anticipate his return, and even though he may delay, nevertheless we endeavor to think about his return every day. We believe that the Messiah is the Word made flesh. We believe he was born of a virgin, lived a sinless life in accordance with the Torah, performed miracles, was crucified for the atonement of his people in accordance with the Scriptures, was bodily resurrected on the third day. ascended to heaven and currently sits at the right hand of YHWH. He will return at the end of this age to usher in the Kingdom of Elohim on earth and will rule the world from Jerusalem with his people Israel for one thousand years. We also believe that the Messiah Yeshua is the Torah incarnate. Just as the Torah is the way, the truth and the light, the Messiah is also the way, the truth and the light.

 

Notice, they side step the issue of the Deity of Jesus (Y'shua).

 

VI. THE ONE FAITH

We believe that there is one faith which was once and for all delivered to the set-apart-ones. We believe that Messiah did not come to create a new religion but to be the Messiah of Judaism, the one faith that was once delivered to the set-apart-ones. We believe that Nazarene Judaism is the only expression of the one true faith. We do not accept any other religion as a non-Jewish cultural expression of the one true faith.

 

 

This group was started and run by James Trimm, who claims to be Jewish, but he is not Jewish. His parents say they are not Jewish and neither is James. James attended a Messianic Judaism synagogue for a short time, and said he is a gentile while attending.  

 

(Messianic Judaism, formed by Jewish believers in Jesus meet on the Sabbath, although do not see this as a required action among Christians. Messianic Judaism believes in the deity of Jesus).

 

(Father/Daddy ) I prefer Father, Son. Holy Spirit not Daddy

 

(We believe that the Messiah is the Word made flesh. We believe he was born of a virgin, lived a sinless life in accordance with the Torah, performed miracles, was crucified for the atonement of his people in accordance with the Scriptures, was bodily resurrected on the third day)

This sounds like no Gentiles are included.

(We also believe that the Messiah Yeshua is the Torah incarnate. Just as the Torah is the way, the truth and the light)

Not sure I would call the Torah  "the way,the truth, and the light"

 

(We believe that Nazarene Judaism is the only expression of the one true faith. We do not accept any other religion as a non-Jewish cultural expression of the one true faith.)

does this mean gentiles have no hope unless they convert to Nazarene?

[Qnts2]

Nazarene Judaism is all gentile. It is a pretty strange group. I bumped into the guy that formed and led this group years ago, on the internet. He claimed to be fluent in Biblical Hebrew but at that time, it was obvious he didn't even know the basics. He claimed to be Jewish, but he wasn't. He claimed to be writing a translation of the bible which was more true then any other translation, but with his lack of Hebrew, Aramaic (shown by a person who knew Aramaic, and Greek (according to a person who could read Koine Greek), that was very questionable to impossible.

 

Sadly, there seem to be quite a few Gentiles who have found a gullible audience from other gentiles, and convinces these people to join in on this so called Hebrew roots movements, creating quite a lucrative following.  Some of these groups deny the deity of Jesus while saying that the Mosaic law is applicable to them, including the Sabbath. Most play at keeping the law, but have no real knowledge of how to keep the law. They claim to eat biblically clean, but when I ask them about the blood, they are either unaware that they are eating blood and/or say it is too hard or expensive so they do the best they can. Strangely, they focus on the Sabbath, food, the holy days (Passover etc) and learning some Hebrew words, but ignore the rest of the law.

 

And yes, I have come across some who believe if you don't keep their pet laws, you will lose your salvation. These groups have their own teachers and do not associate with other Christian teachers or groups, except to recruit. They will not call themselves Christians (whether they believe in the Deity or not), and claim Christianity is extremely flawed.