Which day is the Sabbath and is it still valid today?

[coheir]

Nazarene Judaism is all gentile. It is a pretty strange group. I bumped into the guy that formed and led this group years ago, on the internet. He claimed to be fluent in Biblical Hebrew but at that time, it was obvious he didn't even know the basics. He claimed to be Jewish, but he wasn't. He claimed to be writing a translation of the bible which was more true then any other translation, but with his lack of Hebrew, Aramaic (shown by a person who knew Aramaic, and Greek (according to a person who could read Koine Greek), that was very questionable to impossible.

 

Sadly, there seem to be quite a few Gentiles who have found a gullible audience from other gentiles, and convinces these people to join in on this so called Hebrew roots movements, creating quite a lucrative following.  Some of these groups deny the deity of Jesus while saying that the Mosaic law is applicable to them, including the Sabbath. Most play at keeping the law, but have no real knowledge of how to keep the law. They claim to eat biblically clean, but when I ask them about the blood, they are either unaware that they are eating blood and/or say it is too hard or expensive so they do the best they can. Strangely, they focus on the Sabbath, food, the holy days (Passover etc) and learning some Hebrew words, but ignore the rest of the law.

 

And yes, I have come across some who believe if you don't keep their pet laws, you will lose your salvation. These groups have their own teachers and do not associate with other Christian teachers or groups, except to recruit. They will not call themselves Christians (whether they believe in the Deity or not), and claim Christianity is extremely flawed.

Thanks for the info I did not know most of what you posted.

[Macs Son]

The difference in Sabbath vs. Sabbaths is that the first Sabbath in the ten commandments was not a foreshadowing of Christ but a reminder of when the Lord rested from creation. The commandments; Thou shall not take the Lord thy God's Name in vain, honor thy father and mother, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not murder I simply do not believe were ever done away with but that God wrote them in our heart.

That is a false dichotomy.   The Sabbath as stated in the ten commandments is the same Sabbath mentioned in Exodus 31:13-17. The Sabbath day is mentioned in different contexts.   It is a sign between the children of Israel and God.  It is unique among the ten commandments in that way.  The Sabbath is a sign between the children of Israel under the Mosaic Covenant.

 

There are special annual Sabbaths, but all of them point to Jesus in one fashion or another, just like the Sabbath day in the ten commandments.  It shows that you really haven't studied out the significance of the Sabbath day if you can't accept that it foreshadows Jesus.

Hi Shiloh,

Please remember we are having a conversation, hopefully about what Scripture has to say about the Sabbath and if it is relevant or not. My position on this as a Christian is that I want to obey God's Word, not because I am living to the law but because I love Christ and because I want to worship the Father in Spirit and Truth. If you had been able to show me that the Bible has abrogated the 4th commandment and it is no longer relevant, with Scriptural exegesis, I would change my position in a heartbeat; for this is what I did in affirming the relevance of the Sabbath after being a Christian for many years after I found substantial evidence for it. Anyway all I'm stating here is that we need a Scriptural dialog and as Christians we ought to be able to have one that is focused on the facts. Amen?

Now ith regard to your accusation that I am spreading a false dichotomy let's explore the 4th commandment

First the lead in to the Lord's commandment concerning the Sabbath is that He shows mercy to those who love Him AND keep His commandments. I don't think as Christians we should gloss over that or change the subject; not because we can ever earn our salvation but because it has already been won for us by the one we love. I obeyed my mother and father not because I feared being thrown out of the house but because I knew they loved me and ultimately were after my good. In short I obeyed them because I loved them so I don't believe it's an accident that the Sabbath commandment falls between Honoring God's name, our heavenly Father, and Honoring our earthly father and mother

Exodus 20:6-11 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.

Please see the underlined portion

Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

"Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the LORD your God is giving you.

So you see I am not spreading a false dichotomy but merely quoting Scripture. It was the Lord Himself who told us the reason for the commandment and it is just as I had stated ["The difference in Sabbath vs. Sabbaths is that the first Sabbath in the ten commandments was not a foreshadowing of Christ but a reminder of when the Lord rested from creation."]

 

The Sabbath day belongs to the Old Testament economy and pertains to God's relationship with Israel, for ever.  For that reason, it is not problematic for us as Christians to see only nine of the ten commandments as applicable to the Church.   It isn't a question of it being done away with.  It's just that it isn't a part of the NT economy.

 

You are free to keep the Sabbath day if you wish, but you have no business and no right to tell other believers that Sabbath day observance is compulsory upon them.   All genuine followers of Jesus should reject that aspect your claims out of hand.

I have no right to tell people what the Bible says yet I hear now pastors preach from the pulpit that the Sabbath has been abrogated and there are only 9 commandments not ten, with very little Scriptural backing?

I've seen pastors go off to win a job at the gym instead of preaching on Sunday and what has happened to America in the last 3 or 4 decades has been decadently appalling. More Christians honor football these days than taking a day to rest in the Lord. Historically America had blue laws because it was generally accepted that the Sabbath be not profaned. Those days are bygone and now the Church itself no longer sets a day to rest in God? Yet some of the same preachers get angry when people show up late for their sermon. Shouldn't they expect that seeing they have set aside the day of worshipping the Lord? Now I could go off ranting about false teaching, twisting Scripture, etc, etc, etc but I'd just rather discuss the facts and derive at a Scriptural conclusion instead of continuing in adhominum attacks, philosophical sophistry, or mandate by popular vote. Let's remember that when Israel turned away from the Lord they did so with a vast majority of adherents who though worshipping Baal was a good idea.

I don't have much time this morning but as far as my being off base let's consider some very prominent Christians from our heritage. Not that we should rest on what any man has to say about Scripture but to illustrate how far we have digressed and what is happening to the Church of God in order to be aware of it so we can have a true discussion on the Scriptures without the straw man perceptions that become so prevalent in our debates.

The new covenant does not abrogate that law, but puts it into the heart of every Christian. Jamieson.

From Charles Spurgeon Catechism

Which is the fourth commandment?

A The fourth commandment is, Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor they cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

What is required in the fourth commandment?

A The fourth commandment requires the keeping holy to God such set times as he has appointed in his Word, expressly one whole day in seven, to be a holy Sabbath to himself (Le 19:30 De 5:12).

How is the Sabbath to be sanctified?

The Sabbath is to be sanctified by a holy resting all that day, even from such worldly employments and recreations as are lawful on other days (Le 23:3), and spending the whole time in the public and private exercises of God's worship (Ps 92:1,2 Isa 58:13,14), except so much as is taken up in the works of necessity and mercy (Mt 12:11,12).

There are, of course, many more writers from the past that we esteem that were proponents of honoring a Sabbath day but I'm out of time this morning. I will post these too but even moreso I also want to more fully explore the Scriptures. There is much to gain by discussing this.

May the Lord Bless, Pat

[Guest shiloh357]

Hi Shiloh,

Please remember we are having a conversation, hopefully about what Scripture has to say about the Sabbath and if it is relevant or not. My position on this as a Christian is that I want to obey God's Word, not because I am living to the law but because I love Christ and because I want to worship the Father in Spirit and Truth. If you had been able to show me that the Bible has abrogated the 4th commandment and it is no longer relevant, with Scriptural exegesis, I would change my position in a heartbeat

 

If my argument had been that the Sabbath had been abrogated, then I would need to show you Scripture to that end.  But that has not been my argument.  I have not said that the Sabbath is abrogated and I don't believe that it has been abrogated; I see no reason for God to abrogate any part of His law.  You are wanting me to support an argument I have not raised.

 

Anyway all I'm stating here is that we need a Scriptural dialog and as Christians we ought to be able to have one that is focused on the facts. Amen?

 

You know what the problem here is Macs son?   You have been presented with facts, that you have chosen to ignore because the only argument you are prepared to refute is the argument that the Sabbath has been abrogated.   Since i have not made the claim, and since have reiterated more than once in this thread that I am not arguing that point, you have nothing to refute.  You have this one track-minded position that the only reason someone is opposed to Christians being required to keep the Sabbath is because we believe it to be abrogated.  You are not prepared to handle any other kind of opposition to your view, which is why you keep returning to this tired argument about the Sabbath not being abrogated.

 

First the lead in to the Lord's commandment concerning the Sabbath is that He shows mercy to those who love Him AND keep His commandments. I don't think as Christians we should gloss over that or change the subject; not because we can ever earn our salvation but because it has already been won for us by the one we love. I obeyed my mother and father not because I feared being thrown out of the house but because I knew they loved me and ultimately were after my good. In short I obeyed them because I loved them so I don't believe it's an accident that the Sabbath commandment falls between Honoring God's name, our heavenly Father, and Honoring our earthly father and mother

Exodus 20:6-11 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.

Please see the underlined portion

Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

"Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the LORD your God is giving you.

So you see I am not spreading a false dichotomy but merely quoting Scripture. It was the Lord Himself who told us the reason for the commandment and it is just as I had stated ["The difference in Sabbath vs. Sabbaths is that the first Sabbath in the ten commandments was not a foreshadowing of Christ but a reminder of when the Lord rested from creation."]

 

 

Yes, you are spreading a false dichotomy, because you are operating from the misgiven notion that the ONLY purpose for the Sabbath given in Exodus 20 is the reason stated in the underlined portion.   That is one purpose of the Sabbath, but that is not the ONLY purpose.  

 

Secondly, the Sabbath mentioned in the 10 commandments is the same one mentioned in Exodus 31: 13-17.   It shows another purpose for the Sabbath, as well.  It is a sign between the God and the Children of Israel, forever.    It is not a sign between God and the Gentile nations and never was.  Gentiles have never been under any requirement to keep the Sabbath day.

 

The Sabbath day serves as a foreshadowing of our rest in Christ.  He is our eternal rest from sin, from trying to please God in our own efforts.  He is our rest in that we live in full dependence on Him for all that we need for Him to be.  We are to rest, to lean fully on Him and not upon our own strength to provide for ourselves.  The Sabbath day was a picture of that (Hebrews 4).  The Sabbath day was to be lived in complete rest and dependence on God.  And that is how we should live as believers, resting in and depending on Christ and Christ alone.   But you are not spiritually insightful enough to see that, so you trying build a false dichotomy between the Sabbath mentioned in the ten commandments and the Sabbath mentioned elsewhere.   You are really promoting a false teaching, here.

 

 

I have no right to tell people what the Bible says yet I hear now pastors preach from the pulpit that the Sabbath has been abrogated and there are only 9 commandments not ten, with very little Scriptural backing?

 

You have no right  to tell Gentiles they are required to keep the Sabbath when the Bible says no such thing.  Your position is as invalid and unscriptural as those who claim that the Sabbath was abrogated. 

 

The new covenant does not abrogate that law, but puts it into the heart of every Christian. Jamieson.

From Charles Spurgeon Catechism

Which is the fourth commandment?

A The fourth commandment is, Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor they cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

What is required in the fourth commandment?

A The fourth commandment requires the keeping holy to God such set times as he has appointed in his Word, expressly one whole day in seven, to be a holy Sabbath to himself (Le 19:30 De 5:12).

How is the Sabbath to be sanctified?

The Sabbath is to be sanctified by a holy resting all that day, even from such worldly employments and recreations as are lawful on other days (Le 23:3), and spending the whole time in the public and private exercises of God's worship (Ps 92:1,2 Isa 58:13,14), except so much as is taken up in the works of necessity and mercy (Mt 12:11,12).

There are, of course, many more writers from the past that we esteem that were proponents of honoring a Sabbath day but I'm out of time this morning. I will post these too but even moreso I also want to more fully explore the Scriptures. There is much to gain by discussing this.

 

You're leaving out some important facts.  Men like Spurgeon believed that Sunday worship is the modern Christian  observance of the fourth commandment.  You are trying to use men who did not keep the Sabbath on the seventh day of the week to support your position that we should keep the Sabbath on the seventh day of the week.  That's just laughable.

[Qnts2]

My thoughts. 

 

Each covenant in scripture is a complete covenant. That means that everything said in that covenant is applicable to those who have received that covenant. To pick and choose commands or promises from a covenant is actually violating as the covenant is a single unit and all of the covenant is in effect, not just bits and pieces.

 

So, a person can not claim salvation and reject Jesus. The New Covenant includes a requirement to believe on Jesus so if a person does not believe on Jesus, they also can not receive the promise of salvation from the New Covenant. If a person claims the Mosaic covenant, they have to be a person who was given the Mosaic covenant, and they can not choose the law of 'you shall not murder' and reject keeping the Sabbath holy as a command.

 

So, there are two questions. Are Gentiles obligated to the Mosaic covenant? The simple answer is no. The Mosaic covenant was given to the children of Israel.

 

Are the so called 10 commandments part of the Mosaic covenant, or are they separate?

 

Exodus 20:1 And God spoke all these words, saying:

² “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

³ “You shall have no other gods before Me.

⁴ “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; ⁵ you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, ⁶ but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

⁷ “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.

⁸ “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. ⁹ Six days you shall labor and do all your work, ¹⁰ but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. ¹¹ For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

¹² “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.

¹³ “You shall not murder.

¹⁴ “You shall not commit adultery.

¹⁵ “You shall not steal.

¹⁶ “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

¹⁷ “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”

 

These commands are addressed to  the people that he brought out of bondage from Egypt. That would be Israel. The 10 commandments are a part of the Mosaic covenant. And it is not just the 10 commandments because God continued giving more laws, without separating any out.

 

Exodus 20:22Then the Lord said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: ‘You have seen that I have talked with you from heaven. ²³ You shall not make anything to be with Me—gods of silver or gods of gold you shall not make for yourselves. ²⁴ An altar of earth you shall make for Me, and you shall sacrifice on it your burnt offerings and your peace offerings, your sheep and your oxen. In every place where I record My name I will come to you, and I will bless you. ²⁵ And if you make Me an altar of stone, you shall not build it of hewn stone; for if you use your tool on it, you have profaned it. ²⁶ Nor shall you go up by steps to My altar, that your nakedness may not be exposed on it.’

Exodus 21:“Now these are the judgments which you shall set before them: ² If you buy a Hebrew servant, he shall serve six years; and in the seventh he shall go out free and pay nothing. ³ If he comes in by himself, he shall go out by himself; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. ⁴ If his master has given him a wife, and she has borne him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master’s, and he shall go out by himself. ⁵ But if the servant plainly says, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,’ ⁶ then his master shall bring him to the judges. He shall also bring him to the door, or to the doorpost, and his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him forever.

⁷ “And if a man sells his daughter to be a female slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do. ⁸ If she does not please her master, who has betrothed her to himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people, since he has dealt deceitfully with her. ⁹ And if he has betrothed her to his son, he shall deal with her according to the custom of daughters. ¹⁰ If he takes another wife, he shall not diminish her food, her clothing, and her marriage rights. ¹¹ And if he does not do these three for her, then she shall go out free, without paying money.

The Law Concerning Violence

¹² “He who strikes a man so that he dies shall surely be put to death. ¹³ However, if he did not lie in wait, but God delivered him into his hand, then I will appoint for you a place where he may flee.

¹⁴ “But if a man acts with premeditation against his neighbor, to kill him by treachery, you shall take him from My altar, that he may die.

¹⁵ “And he who strikes his father or his mother shall surely be put to death.

¹⁶ “He who kidnaps a man and sells him, or if he is found in his hand, shall surely be put to death.

¹⁷ “And he who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death.

¹⁸ “If men contend with each other, and one strikes the other with a stone or with his fist, and he does not die but is confined to his bed, ¹⁹ if he rises again and walks about outside with his staff, then he who struck him shall be acquitted. He shall only pay for the loss of his time, and shall provide for him to be thoroughly healed.

²⁰ “And if a man beats his male or female servant with a rod, so that he dies under his hand, he shall surely be punished. ²¹ Notwithstanding, if he remains alive a day or two, he shall not be punished; for he is his property.

²² “If men fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that she gives birth prematurely, yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman’s husband imposes on him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. ²³ But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, ²⁴ eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, ²⁵ burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

²⁶ “If a man strikes the eye of his male or female servant, and destroys it, he shall let him go free for the sake of his eye. ²⁷ And if he knocks out the tooth of his male or female servant, he shall let him go free for the sake of his tooth.

Animal Control Laws

²⁸ “If an ox gores a man or a woman to death, then the ox shall surely be stoned, and its flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall be acquitted. ²⁹ But if the ox tended to thrust with its horn in times past, and it has been made known to his owner, and he has not kept it confined, so that it has killed a man or a woman, the ox shall be stoned and its owner also shall be put to death. ³⁰ If there is imposed on him a sum of money, then he shall pay to redeem his life, whatever is imposed on him. ³¹ Whether it has gored a son or gored a daughter, according to this judgment it shall be done to him. ³² If the ox gores a male or female servant, he shall give to their master thirty shekels of silver, and the ox shall be stoned.

³³ “And if a man opens a pit, or if a man digs a pit and does not cover it, and an ox or a donkey falls in it, ³⁴ the owner of the pit shall make it good; he shall give money to their owner, but the dead animal shall be his.

³⁵ “If one man’s ox hurts another’s, so that it dies, then they shall sell the live ox and divide the money from it; and the dead ox they shall also divide. ³⁶ Or if it was known that the ox tended to thrust in time past, and its owner has not kept it confined, he shall surely pay ox for ox, and the dead animal shall be his own.

 

The law given by God to the children of Israel on that day, continues on for quite a long time.

 

Exodus 22:16  “If a man entices a virgin who is not betrothed, and lies with her, he shall surely pay the bride-price for her to be his wife. ¹⁷ If her father utterly refuses to give her to him, he shall pay money according to the bride-price of virgins.

¹⁸ “You shall not permit a sorceress to live.

¹⁹ “Whoever lies with an animal shall surely be put to death.

²⁰ “He who sacrifices to any god, except to the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed.

²¹ “You shall neither mistreat a stranger nor oppress him, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt.

²² “You shall not afflict any widow or fatherless child. ²³ If you afflict them in any way, and they cry at all to Me, I will surely hear their cry; ²⁴ and My wrath will become hot, and I will kill you with the sword; your wives shall be widows, and your children fatherless.

²⁵ “If you lend money to any of My people who are poor among you, you shall not be like a moneylender to him; you shall not charge him interest. ²⁶ If you ever take your neighbor’s garment as a pledge, you shall return it to him before the sun goes down. ²⁷ For that is his only covering, it is his garment for his skin. What will he sleep in? And it will be that when he cries to Me, I will hear, for I am gracious.

²⁸ “You shall not revile God, nor curse a ruler of your people.

²⁹ “You shall not delay to offer the first of your ripe produce and your juices. The firstborn of your sons you shall give to Me. ³⁰ Likewise you shall do with your oxen and your sheep. It shall be with its mother seven days; on the eighth day you shall give it to Me.

³¹ “And you shall be holy men to Me: you shall not eat meat torn by beasts in the field; you shall throw it to the dogs.

 

I will stop here as there is simply too much. But, I highlighted again the command about Israel having been 'strangers' in the land of Egypt. That is not the church/Christians.

 

To divide out 10 commandments given to the children of Israel is simply not valid. Those commandments were given by God to Israel as a part of the Mosaic covenant.  In the NT, which has the requirements of the New Covenant, 9 of the 10 commandments were repeated. That means the New Covenant which has laws, has 9 laws which are the same as 9 of the laws given in the Mosaic covenant. But,,, these are separate covenants, with different commands, given to different people.

 

The Sabbath was given to the children of Israel. It is defined as the 7th day. No where in scripture does the Sabbath change to any other day then the 7th day, and no where in scripture are people who are not members of the children of Israel given commands about the Sabbath in any other covenant.  

[Guest shiloh357]

based on your reply, you really are not understanding what i am talking about.  its very obvious when you said the purpose of the sabbath is not to turn your attention to God.  the sabbath is a day of rest, and this rest is in Him. 

 

The purpose, ultimately, of the Sabbath is to point us to Jesus as our true Sabbath rest.  I rest in God's rest by trusting in Jesus, not observing the Sabbath day.

 

i am not talking about a legalistic form of the sabbath as many of the jews kept.  therefore i am not saying Jesus isnt enough.  what i am saying is i want MORE of Jesus.

 

You have all of Jesus you're going to get.  He isn't holding anything back from you.  He has given Himself to you and for you completely.   He needs more of you, not the other way around.

 

i choose to take a day (Lord willing) out of a week to honor and worship and seek Him.  nothing but Him.  if you feel that would be going backwards for you, then by all means dont, but as i said previously i dont wish to argue this point and you can choose to or not to participate.

 

My point is that observing the Sabbath day cannot provide me with anything I don't already have in Jesus.  If you are seeking from the Sabbath day, any provision, already made by Christ, then yes you are going backwards.

 

i am simply giving MY stance on this, not trying to convince you to do as i do.  it works well for me and someone out there may read what i have to say and may be edifyed by it.  it edifys me and i can tell a difference when i dont spend one day a week put aside for Him. 

 

My issue isn't with taking one day out of the week to rest and spend time with God.  My issue in this thread pertains to those who are saying that God requires Gentile believers to keep the Sabbath.

[other one]

 

 

Never said you are not supposed to be focused on God every day.

If you are focused on God and leading a holy life what in the world do you need a ten commandments Sabbath.

 

.....and that is what we are supposed to do.

 

because its one of the ways i choose to honor and worship Him.  i find it very refreshing. refreshing being a living waters ref. 

if i didnt keep the sabbath one week i do not think i would be sinning.  for me it makes a difference to totaly focus on Him foir a day without hinderences of work or all the things that wear on us spiritualy.  and if your work dont wear on you, come do what i do. 

my position is not that a sabbath is required, but for me, desired. 

 

There is nothing whatsoever wrong with you choosing to honor and worship him on Saturday......    but there is something fundamentally wrong with you telling me that I must do the same.

[GoldenEagle]

My issue isn't with taking one day out of the week to rest and spend time with God.  My issue in this thread pertains to those who are saying that God requires Gentile believers to keep the Sabbath.

 

I agree.

"We must not seek to bind the consciences of other Believers with the private convictions that arise out of our personal walk with God. Even if you believe God has led you in developing those convictions, you still must not elevate them to the level of spiritual principles for everyone else to follow." - Jerry Bridges

[other one]

 

 

 

 

Never said you are not supposed to be focused on God every day.

If you are focused on God and leading a holy life what in the world do you need a ten commandments Sabbath.

.....and that is what we are supposed to do.

because its one of the ways i choose to honor and worship Him. i find it very refreshing. refreshing being a living waters ref.

if i didnt keep the sabbath one week i do not think i would be sinning. for me it makes a difference to totaly focus on Him foir a day without hinderences of work or all the things that wear on us spiritualy. and if your work dont wear on you, come do what i do.

my position is not that a sabbath is required, but for me, desired.

There is nothing whatsoever wrong with you choosing to honor and worship him on Saturday...... but there is something fundamentally wrong with you telling me that I must do the same.

thats probably true. However I never said that.

edit: I hold my sabbath on sunday. I ussualy work on saturday. However my boss is trying to work it out so we both get saturday and sunday off.

 

Well you can have a sabbath or not if you are following Jesus in the Spirit.......      actually I have never been to a church and considered it a day of rest.   there is usually too much to do on Sunday to consider it rest.    When we are home though we do go to church for the shear enjoyment of it.   I would have to say that I would not be closer to Jesus now as when we didn't attend any services for about ten years.    I personally just don't need Church to remain close to the Spirit and thus, both Jesus and the Father.

 

But I might add that we are all different in our walks, there just isn't any one size fits all walk with the Lord.

[Macs Son]

A SUGGESTION

I believe answering the following questions may help us to get down to crush depth without imploding our boat.

I think the great macro question on the table for us to answer here is as follows:

Is the Sabbath still relevant to the Christian?

To do so we should first consider the following micro questions and derive our answers and discuss with much thought, prayer and Scriptural evidences

1. Is the Sabbath still part of the 10 commandments?

2. Did Jesus; death and resurrection abrograte the commandments of God & if so what are the verses that support this?

3. What was the early view of Christians and the Sabbath

4. What was the Reformational view of the Sabbath?

5. When did keeping a Day holy unto the Lord become irrelevant from the pulpit

6. When did the Sabbath become irrelevant in America?

We can certainly discuss later whether the Christian Sabbath should be Saturday or Sunday but I believe at this point that is a secondary argument that is probably at least 1800 years old. It doesn’t really matter if Christians do not believe we should keep a Day holy and honoring unto the Lord, resting from our own works and resting in Him. So let our first task be to understand the relevancy of the Sabbath Day even if we disagree on what day that truly is; for after we achieved depth on this we can tackle whether that is Saturday or Sunday or if the day really matters to the Lord or not.

Unto Question #1 Is the Sabbath still part of the 10 commandments?

Well, since I think we all would agree that the Sabbath in integral to the 10 commandments, as they are listed as number 4 in the hierarchy of the ten, I would first ask are the 10 commandments still relevant to the Christian? Then we can establish whether Christ abrogated the Sabbath. So consider this #1a if you will.

My humble opinion is they are. Why do I say this? For one Jesus taught us the relevancy of God’s higher law, which far exceeded what the Pharisees were teaching the people, and in doing so He touched on many of the ten commandments. He never spoke of abrogating or setting aside a single one so I don’t think it’s okay that we set them aside as a some kind of ancient relic either. In order to do that we would need Scriptural proof and, quite frankly, no one on this thread has shown us any. Well Jesus taught us so inferring it and integrating the commandments within the sermon on the mount. He also stated this:

Matthew 5:17-19

“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. “For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. “Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

I’ve certainly exegeted this one before but perhaps this is better coming from an established voice from the past that many of us have in their libraries. So I will defer to Matthew Henry, the early American puritan. He breaks the passage down as thus:

1.

He protests against the thought of cancelling and weakening the Old Testament; Think not that I am come to destroy the law and the prophets. (1.) "Let not the pious Jews, who have an affection for the law and the prophets, fear that I come to destroy them.' Let them be not prejudiced against Christ and his doctrine, from a jealousy that this kingdom he came to set up, would derogate from the honour of the Scriptures, which they had embraced as coming from God, and of which they had experienced the power and purity; no, let them be satisfied that Christ has no ill design upon the law and the prophets. "Let not the profane Jews, who have a disaffection to the law and the prophets, and are weary of that yoke, hope that I am come to destroy them.' Let not carnal libertines imagine that the Messiah is come to discharge them from the obligation of divine precepts and yet to secure to them divine promises, to make the happy and yet to give them leave to live as they list. Christ commands nothing now which was forbidden either by the law of nature or the moral law, nor forbids any thing which those laws had enjoined; it is a great mistake to think he does, and he here takes care to rectify the mistake; I am not come to destroy. The Saviour of souls is the destroyer of nothing but the works of the devil, of nothing that comes from God, much less of those excellent dictates which we have from Moses and the prophets. No, he came to fulfil them. That is,

[1.] To obey the commands of the law, for he was made under the law, Gal. 4:4. He in all respects yielded obedience to the law, honoured his parents, sanctified the Sabbath, prayed, gave alms, and did that which never any one else did, obeyed perfectly, and never broke the law in any thing.

[2.] To make good the promises of the law, and the predictions of the prophets, which did all bear witness to him. The covenant of grace is, for substance, the same now that it was then, and Christ the Mediator of it.

[3.] To answer the types of the law; thus he did not make void, but make good, the ceremonial law, and manifested himself to be the Substance of all those shadows.

[4.] To fill up the defects of it, and so to complete and perfect it. Thus the word pleµroµsai properly signifies. If we consider the law as a vessel that had some water in it before, he did not come to pour out the water, but to fill the vessel up to the brim; or, as a picture that is first rough-drawn, displays some outlines only of the piece intended, which are afterwards filled up; so Christ made an improvement of the law and the prophets by his additions and explications.

[5.] To carry on the same design; the Christian institutes are so far from thwarting and contradicting that which was the main design of the Jewish religion, that they promote it to the highest degree. The gospel is the time of reformation (Heb. 9:10), not the repeal of the law, but the amendment of it, and, consequently, its establishment.

2.

He asserts the perpetuity of it; that not only he designed not the abrogation of it, but that it never should be abrogated (v. 18); "Verily I say unto you, I, the Amen, the faithful Witness, solemnly declare it, that till heaven and earth pass, when time shall be no more, and the unchangeable state of recompences shall supersede all laws, one jot, or one tittle, the least and most minute circumstance, shall in no wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled;' for what is it that God is doing in all the operations both of providence and grace, but fulfilling the scripture? Heaven and earth shall come together, and all the fulness thereof be wrapped up in ruin and confusion, rather than any word of God shall fall to the ground, or be in vain. The word of the Lord endures for ever, both that of the law, and that of the gospel. Observe, The care of God concerning his law extends itself even to those things that seem to be of least account in it, the iotas and the tittles; for whatever belongs to God, and bears his stamp, be it ever so little, shall be preserved. The laws of men are conscious to themselves of so much imperfection, that they allow it for a maxim, Apices juris non sunt jura-The extreme points of the law are not the law, but God will stand by and maintain every iota and every tittle of his law.

3.

He gives it in charge to his disciples, carefully to preserve the law, and shows them the danger of the neglect and contempt of it (v. 19)]; Whosoever therefore shall break one of the least commandments of the law of Moses, much more any of the greater, as the Pharisees did, who neglected the weightier matters of the law, and shall teach men so as they did, who made void the commandment of God with their traditions (ch. 15:3), he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. Though the Pharisees be cried up for such teachers as should be, they shall not be employed as teachers in Christ's kingdom; but whosoever shall do and teach them, as Christ's disciples would, and thereby prove themselves better friends to the Old Testament than the Pharisees were, they, though despised by men, shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Note, (1.) Among the commands of God there are some less than others; none absolutely little, but comparatively so. The Jews reckon the least of the commandments of the law to be that of the bird's nest (Deu. 22:6, 7); yet even that had a significance and an intention very great and considerable. (2.) It is a dangerous thing, in doctrine or practice, to disannul the least of God's commands; to break them, that is, to go about either to contract the extent, or weaken the obligation of them; whoever does so, will find it is at his peril. Thus to vacate any of the ten commandments, is too bold a stroke for the jealous God to pass by. it is something more than transgressing the law, it is making void the law, Ps. 119:126. (3.) That the further such corruptions as they spread, the worse they are. It is impudence enough to break the command, but is a greater degree of it to teach men so. This plainly refers to those who at this time sat in Moses' seat, and by their comments corrupted and perverted the text. Opinions that tend to the destruction of serious godliness and the vitals of religion, by corrupt glosses on the scripture, are bad when they are held, but worse when they are propagated and taught, as the word of God. He that does so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven, in the kingdom of glory; he shall never come thither, but be eternally excluded; or, rather, in the kingdom of the gospel-church. He is so far from deserving the dignity of a teacher in it, that he shall not so much as be accounted a member of it. The prophet that teaches these lies shall be the tail in that kingdom (Isa. 9:15); when truth shall appear in its own evidence, such corrupt teachers, though cried up as the Pharisees, shall be of no account with the wise and good. Nothing makes ministers more contemptible and base than corrupting the law, Mal. 2:8, 11. Those who extenuate and encourage sin, and discountenance and put contempt upon strictness in religion and serious devotion, are the dregs of the church. But, on the other hand, Those are truly honourable, and of great account in the church of Christ, who lay out themselves by their life and doctrine to promote the purity and strictness of practical religion; who both do and teach that which is good; for those who do not as they teach, pull down with one hand what they build up with the other, and give themselves the lie, and tempt men to think that all religion is a delusion; but those who speak from experience, who live up to what they preach, are truly great; they honour God, and God will honour them (1 Sa. 2:30), and hereafter they shall shine as the stars in the kingdom of our Father.

Does this answer question 1a?

In Christ, Pat

[Guest shiloh357]

A SUGGESTION

I believe answering the following questions may help us to get down to crush depth without imploding our boat.

I think the great macro question on the table for us to answer here is as follows:

Is the Sabbath still relevant to the Christian?

To do so we should first consider the following micro questions and derive our answers and discuss with much thought, prayer and Scriptural evidences

1. Is the Sabbath still part of the 10 commandments?

 

 

1.  Of course it is still part of the 10 commandments.   But it is unique in that it is the only one of the 10 commandments that was ONLY given to Israel, when you study out everything that the Bible says about the Sabbath.

 

2. No Jesus' death on the cross did not abrogate the Sabbath.  But Jesus' death on the cross also did not obligate Gentile believers to keep the Sabbath day as a literal observance.

3. It doesn't really matter.  Our theology isn't based on what other Christians believed or didn't believe at any given time in history.  The Bible alone is the final arbiter in all matters of faith and practice.  When you start having to make appeals outside of the Bible to support your theology, you are entering into false teaching.

4. Same answer as to #3

5.Who said it was irrelevant?   I think you are told by whoever you are listening to or reading that those who oppose mandatory Sabbath observance for Gentiles are claiming it is irrelevant.  I have never heard that.  I have heard that Gentiles are under no obligation to keep it.

6. Again, who said it was irrelevant?  The US has never been a Sabbath keeping nation.  Christian in the US have always observed Sunday, not the OT Sabbath.  

 

Well, since I think we all would agree that the Sabbath in integral to the 10 commandments, as they are listed as number 4 in the hierarchy of the ten, I would first ask are the 10 commandments still relevant to the Christian?

 

Relevant?  Yes.  Applicable?  No.  It is relevant to the Church because the Sabbath is a foreshadowing of Christ, even though I realize that some are not theologically sophisticated enough to recognize that reality.

 

Why do I say this? For one Jesus taught us the relevancy of God’s higher law, which far exceeded what the Pharisees were teaching the people, and in doing so He touched on many of the ten commandments.

 

 

 

False.  Jesus emphasized a better righteousness than the Pharisees had.   Jesus said that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the Scribes and the Pharisees you will not enter the Kingdom of God.   Jesus emphasized a righteousness that only He can provide, a righteousness that we can only access through Him, alone.  He was not arguing for keeping the Law, but was revealing what lies at the heart of having a true relationship with God.

 

He never spoke of abrogating or setting aside a single one so I don’t think it’s okay that we set them aside as a some kind of ancient relic either. In order to do that we would need Scriptural proof and, quite frankly, no one on this thread has shown us any. Well Jesus taught us so inferring it and integrating the commandments within the sermon on the mount. He also stated this:

Matthew 5:17-19

“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. “For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. “Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

 

God doesn't abrogate any part of His law.  He brought the Law to fulfillment in the Person of Jesus.  Jesus full expression of the Law.  Jesus is substance, the focus of the Law.   There is nothing that keeping the Law can provide me that I don't get through Jesus.  The Law cannot bring me into fellowship with God.  It wasn't designed to do that.  The Law can't do anything for me.  All it can do is point me to Jesus.

 

I’ve certainly exegeted this one before but perhaps this is better coming from an established voice from the past that many of us have in their libraries. So I will defer to Matthew Henry, the early American puritan.

 

It is humorous, that in an attempt to justify your Sabbath observance, you appeal to the words of a man who observed Sunday and not the Seventh Day of the week.

 

Here is what Matthew Henry says about the Holy Spirit coming to earth on the Day of Pentecost (first day of the week):

 

"This feast of pentecost happened on the first day of the week, which was an additional honour put on that day, and a confirmation of it to be the Christian sabbath, the day which the Lord hath made, to be a standing memorial in his church of those two great blessings - the resurrection of Christ, and the pouring out of the Spirit, both on that day of the week. This serves not only to justify us in observing that day under the style and title of the Lord's day, but to direct us in the sanctifying of it to give God praise particularly for those two great blessings; every Lord's day in the year, I think, there should be a full and particular notice taken in our prayers and praises of these two, as there is by some churches of the one once a year, upon Easter-day, and of the other once a year, upon Whit-sunday. Oh! that we may do it with suitable affections!" ~ Matthew Henry

 

So really Macs son, you need to be a little more careful in picking your sources.