Which day is the Sabbath and is it still valid today?

[kwikphilly]

Blessings tff.....

    Perhaps you may be seeking Truth with a carnal mind,with you own very limited knowledge (as we all have).....there are no errors in the Bible,& it most any translation if we seek God Truth & His Face by the Power of the Holy Spirit it will be revealed to us through the Heart & Mind of Christ & with true Wisdom & Understanding................if it is knowledge you seek then go back into the Hebrew & Greek texts ,as I have,,,,,,,,,you will find what I have found if first You are seeking God & an intimate relationship with him.......God Bless you .............

   Oh,knowledge so often gets in the way of Wisdom......................                                                   With love-in Christ,Kwik

[Macs Son]

Okay.... well since you consider your opinions to be the pinnacle of Biblical exegesis may I remind you that you have given us none here, my friend. Seeing as how you have already claimed the honoring of the Sabbath was integral to the 10 commandments but they weren't for Gentiles then I suppose the Gentiles are excluded from not honoring their Father and Mother, murdering, stealing, or committing adultery either. Sounds like a great recipe for hedonism. Instead of always being the critic please provide support for your arguments. I think we'd all be better served. So my followup question here is:

What commandments of the ten were the Gentiles supposed to keep and, if you agree they were both for the Jews and Gentiles, specifically what Scriptural evidence can you give that the Sabbath is to be excluded?

Thank you, Pat

Again, another strawman as I have said nothing about not honoring one's parents.

You did read the question? Did you not? If so, how on earth did you manage to interpret the above question in context of honoring one's parent Shiloh? Please read the above in the context it was given. Let me help you a bit with what I asked.

1. I asked you what part of the 10 commandments were both for Jew and Gentile? 

2. Which commandments were excluded, just the Sabbath others? Please supply Scriptural evidence that makes that clear to us.

Note the below statement also has no Scriptural support and is mere supposition on your part. Why don't you use Scripture? After all it is God's truthand really the only way to get to the truth.

Gentile believers are not commanded to keep the Sabbath in the first place, so I don't have to come up with an itemized list of what they do and do not need to do.  We live in the New Testament economy and that does not include the Sabbath day observance as a compulsory observance.

 

Nice try but you did not answer the question Shiloh.

When Jesus said the Sabbath was made for man did He only mean Jewish men as you explicitly stated to us?

How do you rectify the verse?

The Sabbath day observance was for Israel only.  An expanded, biblical view of the Sabbath which includes the reality that Jesus is our Sabbath in the New Testament economy is the only way one can expand the Sabbath to apply to all people, Jewish or Gentile.  But the Sabbath day observance under the Old Testament economy (Jesus minisistered under that economy) only includes Israelites as obligated to the Sabbath day observance.

 

 

But where O where is the exegesis on those verses Shiloh. Please show they are meaningless for Gentiles?

I didn't say they were meaningless.  I don't need to provide any exegesis for what I didn't say.

Let's not play Clintonesque word games here shall we? 

The Lord said not one jot or title would pass away from the Law and those who taught others to break it were to be called least in the kingdom of heaven. This is not something to be cute with but something that needs to be understood in the light of Scripture my friend. Specifically I will ask again, which commandments should the Christian obey and which ones have been abrogated? And yes you do need to provide Scriptural exegesis just as I have. It's not a one way street.

Matthew 5:18-19 "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Notice the commandments do NOT pass away until heaven and earth pass away. So unless you can clearly show us from Scripture that the Sabbath, and whatever other commandments you believe were explicitly abrogated with Scriptural support for your claims, no one here should believe you.

No comment on your comment since it's irrelevant to the discussion at hand my friend and every one is entitled to their opinion but not everyone is entitled to a response.

Interpretation:   "I can't provide Shiloh with a verse that actually says what I am saying, so I will hide behind the weak excuse that he is not entitled to a response in order to hide this glaring weakness in my argument, and irrationally pretend my inability to support my argument is irrelevant to the argument itself."

Sad to say that you're not even close my friend since I have provided you with many passages of Scripture that support the fact that the Sabbath was for all men not just the Jews. I have also shown you from Scripture that both the early Jews and Gentile Christians celebrated the Sabbath. I've even given you early Christian commentary and examples from men who walked the walk and gone to their eternal reward to establish a historical perspective. Meanwhile you have not built a single foundational case for the Sabbath being abrogated. Maybe you need to count the number of passages I queried you about and also count the ones you have evaded and chosen not to answer. I think the record speaks for itself but if you want I'll count them for you. The truth here is that you really have stonewalled the debate in providing any Scriptural answers and interpretation of Scripture with respect to any of these examples that I provided to you. And, by doing so, you've digressed the debate to not answering questions, evading any true discussion, and now you bear false witness by putting words into people's mouths. O how I long for the day grown ups were in charge? Good mantra but "Really"?

In Christ, Pat

[Macs Son]

With regard to your 2 arguments

1. No, it is not clear, else we would not be having this debate. I don't believe you shown anyone that it clear and that because you have not exegeted a single verse. Just throwing out a couple of non expounded verses and persona; criticisms certainly does not equal sound Biblical exegesis brother.

When I say that the Sabbath is given only to Israel, that is not something that needs to be exegeted. I posted to you ALL of the commandments given in the Bible and ALL of them were given to Israel, ONLY. That is simple fact. There is nothing to exegete. Exegesis is used to lead out the meaning of a text. But when one examines the Scriptures I gave, they all come from the Old Testament and every single time, the intended audience was Israel. You need to come to grips with that reality.

So by logic it follows that you don't believe any of the commandments are for Christians, since they were all given to Israel?

Why did Jesus say this then? Was He speaking only to Jews or both Jews and Gentiles that would be entering the kingdom of heaven through His sacrifice?

Matthew 5:18-19 "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Please explain so we can have an intelligent discussion.

Thanks, Pat

[Guest shiloh357]

You did read the question correct? How did you manage to interpret the above question in context of honoring one's parent Shiloh? Do you Please read the above in the context it was given. Let me help you a bit with what I asked.

1. I asked you what part of the 10 commandments were both for Jew and Gentile? 

 

The moral/ethical commandments are universal.  The Sabbath, dietary laws, festivals, sacrifices, etc. were for Israel only.

 

 

Note the below has no Scriptural support and is mere supposition on your part. Why don't you use Scripture? After all it is God's truthand really the only way to get to the truth.

 

But I have used Scripture.  I posted ALL of the Scriptures that command the Sabbath to be observed and all of those Scriptures were ONLY to Israel.  That you can't bring yourself to acknowledge that isn't really my problem.  It only shows that you are really being honest in this discussion.

 

Let's not play Clintonesque word games shall we?  The Lord said not one jot or title would pass away from the Law and those who taught others to break it were to be called least in the kingdom of heaven.

 

I am not being Clintonesque at all.   I never said the Sabbath or any part of the law has passed away.  And I am not calling on Gentiles to break any of God's laws, because Gentiles were not commanded to keep the Sabbath.  They can't break a law that they were never given.

 

Notice the commandments do NOT pass away until heaven and earth pass away. So unless you can clearly show us from Scripture that the Sabbath, and whatever other commandments you believe were explicitly abrogated with Scriptural support for your claims, no one here should believe you.

 

But I never claimed the Sabbath was done away with.  All I said is that it was never transferred to Gentiles as an obligation.  I don't believe the Sabbath was abolished.  I just don't think it was never God's intention to make it compulsory upon Gentiles.

 

Not even close my friend since I have provided you with many passage of Scripture that support the Sabbath was for all men not just the Jews. I also shown you fro Scripture that both the early Jews and Gentile Christians celebrated the Sabbath. I've even given you early Christian commentary and examples from men who walked the walk and gone to their eternal reward. Meanwhile you have not built any foundation case for the Sabbath being abrogated.

 

The problem here, Macs son is that you are trying refute me on the basis of an argument I never made.  You are constantly trying to get me to prove the Sabbath was abrogated when I have never said the Sabbath was abrogated and have taken pains to that I don't believe it to be abrogated.   You keep demanding that I produce Scripture to prove an argument I have not once floated in this conversation.

 

I suggest you learn how to read or something, because I have made it abundantly clear to you what my position is and clearly you can't seem grasp what i am saying.

[Guest shiloh357]

So by logic it follows that you don't believe any of the commandments are for Christians, since they were all given to Israel?

 

Nope.  Not what I said.  That is an example of a strawman.  You exaggerate my position beyond what i said in order to have something to knock down.

 

Why did Jesus say this then? Was He speaking only to Jews or both Jews and Gentiles that would be entering the kingdom of heaven through His sacrifice?

Matthew 5:18-19 "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Please explain so we can have an intelligent discussion.

Thanks, Pat

 

 

We can have an intelligent conversation when you read what I actually said and respond to that,  instead of trying get me to refute arguments that I am not making.

[tff]

 

 

 

 

 

No, it's a Christian teaching.   But you deny the deity of Jesus, so you are outside of the authentic New Testament faith, anyway.

 

Check the Catechism Simply Explained by Canon Cafferata, the official document of the RCC, also available on the internet, to compare my statement.

 

My point is that it wasn't invented by the Catholics.   The Bible demonstrates the Trinity and it declares the deity of Jesus.  The deity of Jesus is an essential biblical teaching that cannot be compromised.

 

You are also disregarding the Biblical fact that Jesus is sitting on God's right hand side as Man.

 

Jesus is 100% God and 100% man.  Jesus is not sitting on God's right hand.  God is an omnipresent spirit.  He doesn't have a "right hand."   God has no body or form.  To say that He is sitting on God's right hand is a figure of speech.  The "right hand" is a symbol of authority.  It is simply a way of saying that Jesus has divine authority and only God has divine authority.   You are the one void of biblical fact.

 

The Bible teaches us that Jesus Christ is sitting on God's right hand side and now you say God has no hand. Do you want to tell me that the Bible is incorrect? If right hand means authority, what does the left hand mean? I would love to hear your explanation seeing that you seem to know the Bible better than everybody else.

 

The Bible simply uses "right hand" in connection with God as a figure of speech.  Everyone knows that. The Bible isn't wrong; you simply don't study it correctly.

 

That is why I am asking questions to find out the truth and all you can say is that I am studying it incorrectly? How should I study the Bible then? Please tell me your method so that we all can learn.

[tff]

 

 

 

 

 

 

No, it's a Christian teaching.   But you deny the deity of Jesus, so you are outside of the authentic New Testament faith, anyway.

 

Check the Catechism Simply Explained by Canon Cafferata, the official document of the RCC, also available on the internet, to compare my statement.

 

My point is that it wasn't invented by the Catholics.   The Bible demonstrates the Trinity and it declares the deity of Jesus.  The deity of Jesus is an essential biblical teaching that cannot be compromised.

 

You are also disregarding the Biblical fact that Jesus is sitting on God's right hand side as Man.

 

Jesus is 100% God and 100% man.  Jesus is not sitting on God's right hand.  God is an omnipresent spirit.  He doesn't have a "right hand."   God has no body or form.  To say that He is sitting on God's right hand is a figure of speech.  The "right hand" is a symbol of authority.  It is simply a way of saying that Jesus has divine authority and only God has divine authority.   You are the one void of biblical fact.

 

The Bible teaches us that Jesus Christ is sitting on God's right hand side and now you say God has no hand. Do you want to tell me that the Bible is incorrect? If right hand means authority, what does the left hand mean? I would love to hear your explanation seeing that you seem to know the Bible better than everybody else.

 

The Bible simply uses "right hand" in connection with God as a figure of speech.  Everyone knows that. The Bible isn't wrong; you simply don't study it correctly.

 

That is why I am asking questions to find out the truth and all you can say is that I am studying it incorrectly? How should I study the Bible then? Please tell me your method so that we all can learn.

 

Also to add to your statement that God has no body or form. When God had a discussion with Jesus to create man, He said "Let us man in our image, after our likeness." Now you tell me that God had no form. How come the man is formed all the same and even Jesus was formed like man. To be quite honest, you sometimes come up with some weird explanations. Satan used the same weird arguments to conn Eve.

[Guest shiloh357]

Also to add to your statement that God has no body or form. When God had a discussion with Jesus to create man, He said "Let us man in our image, after our likeness." Now you tell me that God had no form. How come the man is formed all the same and even Jesus was formed like man. To be quite honest, you sometimes come up with some weird explanations. Satan used the same weird arguments to conn Eve.

 

It is not talking about a bodily image.  It is talking about God' moral image.  The reason that God told the children Israel not make any image of Him is because He provided them no image of Himself  when he appeared to them on Mt. Sinai.  God has no physical form.   God has no literal arms, feet, hands, eyes, ears or mouth.   God speaks of himself in terms we can grasp.  But God is an omnipresent spirit.  He is everywhere at once, which means that He can't be spatially limited by a physical body.

[OneLight]

This is how I see it:

• Did Jesus sin? No
• Did Jesus heal on the Sabbath or do other work? Yes
• Since Jesus did not sin, then doing His work on the Sabbath is acceptable.

The 4th Commandment states:  "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it."

If Jesus did work on the Sabbath, then the law is not greater then Gods will. If the disciples were allowed to pluck grain heads in the field to eat, and Jesus protected their right to do so, we have to question which is better: being under the Law of following the will of God in our lives.

[tff]

 

Also to add to your statement that God has no body or form. When God had a discussion with Jesus to create man, He said "Let us man in our image, after our likeness." Now you tell me that God had no form. How come the man is formed all the same and even Jesus was formed like man. To be quite honest, you sometimes come up with some weird explanations. Satan used the same weird arguments to conn Eve.

 

It is not talking about a bodily image.  It is talking about God' moral image.  The reason that God told the children Israel not make any image of Him is because He provided them no image of Himself  when he appeared to them on Mt. Sinai.  God has no physical form.   God has no literal arms, feet, hands, eyes, ears or mouth.   God speaks of himself in terms we can grasp.  But God is an omnipresent spirit.  He is everywhere at once, which means that He can't be spatially limited by a physical body.

 

From this discussion I gather one thing only and that is that you do not want to answer my questions, you are quick to criticise my thoughts  and love to express your own thoughts. Thanks.