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Does Purgatory exist or not?


tff

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of course it exists....

 

and the hot and the cold of winter and summer are of the purgatory's breathing....

 

~

 

Beloved

 

And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

 

In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

 

And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

 

And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever. Revelation 22:1-5

 

God's Word

 

For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;

 

if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;

 

if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;

 

and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked

 

(for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard);

 

then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment,

 

and especially those who indulge in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority. 2 Peter 2:4-10

 

Says Otherwise

 

But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”  Revelation 21:8 (ESV)

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Thank you Judas. The once saved always saved doctrinal belief is a man made belief, because many have been taught to believe in that doctrine in spite of what scripture says.

Lets say that I was a drunkard (which I was) and got saved and was badly church hurt not long after I was saved and turned my back on Christ. I said "Self if that is what Christianity is all about I want no part of it" even though when I came up out of the water I loved everybody and my life was changed. So I back slid and I actually had to work at backsliding after being delivered from bondage and I stayed in a backslidden state for more then twenty years living the life of a drunkard.

Now scripture says that "There will no drunkards in heaven". So if I had died a drunkard in a backslidden state, would I have still been accepted into heaven because I had been saved? Or would I have turned away because I was a drunkard when I died? Because if I had been accepted into heaven then that would be a biblical contradiction would it not? No way. I know that if I had died before I repented of my willful bondage to getting high, I would have gone straight to hell if I had died.

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Guest Judas Machabeus

Massorite:

I would have to agree. You can be saved and still turn your back on Christ. And as long as you turn back to him before you die you can be forgiven. But if you die in a state of rejecting him than you will be fixed in that stat for eternity.

The most common argument is "well were you really saved". Which I find to be an intellectual cope out.

Edited by Judas Machabeus
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Guest Judas Machabeus

then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment,

I am only quoting this part cause it was bolded: Joe this says he knows how to rescue but does not say how it's done. I am not refuting Heaven and Hell. I don't believe that when we die that we die without sin. We all have some kind of sin in our hearts and until that is cleansed from us we can not enter Heaven.

I really don't care what it's called, wether its Putgatory, or dry cleaning for the soul. Before we enter Heaven I believe there is some cleansing of the soul that takes place.

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then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment,

I am only quoting this part cause it was bolded: Joe this says he knows how to rescue but does not say how it's done. I am not refuting Heaven and Hell. I don't believe that when we die that we die without sin. We all have some kind of sin in our hearts and until that is cleansed from us we can not enter Heaven.

I really don't care what it's called, wether its Putgatory, or dry cleaning for the soul. Before we enter Heaven I believe there is some cleansing of the soul that takes place.

How do you explain away Hebrews 9:26-28?

He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

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Guest Judas Machabeus

One light I'm not really sure the point you are trying to make?

Lazarus died twice. So did all the people that where raised by the prophets in the OT and the apostles of the NT and those raised by Jeaus. They all died twice.

As for what I said. Only those going to heaven will need to have sin cleansed from their souls. This is not a judgement. They have already been judged and saved. If you were judged as being not saved than there would be no need to be cleansed.

The opposing point of view as I see it, and please correct me if I am wrong. Jesus died and all sins are forgiven without any need for penance or asking for forgiveness. And when that person dies they go straight to heaven sins and all. For when you die you will die with sin and if those sins are not repented than they are not forgiven and cling to the soul.

So how does the once safed always safed reconcile this. I don't understand. If you do not seek forgiveness you are not forgiven.

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Judas, it is very simple. I underlined the scripture that tells us that once we die, there is no more time for redemption, just judgment. We do not have a purgatory, or any other time, to cleanse ourselves. He paid for all our sins and if we run the race and finish, He is able to cleanse us of all sins, known and unknown.

I have no idea where your question about once saved always save comes from ... surely not from me.

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Hi Judas,

 

In Christ we are righteous for He took our punishment. This is the foundation that the Apostle Paul was talking about, (1 Cor. 3:11) & then he goes on to tell us to be careful how we build on that. Each person`s work, whether done by the power of the Holy Spirit or done for selfish reasons, all these will be exposed. So what is not repented of, not done through the Holy Spirit, all this will be `burnt up,` in God`s holy fire & only what is of Christ will remain.

 

`If any man`s work is burned up he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet as through fire.`  (1 Cor. 3: 15)

 

Hope that helps you.

 

Just read again your comments & a thought on `repentance.` If a person does not repent of what the Holy Spirit is showing them then, bit by bit they get hardened to His voice & eventually they are not `following,` listening to Christ. They can fall away.

Edited by Marilyn C
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Guest Judas Machabeus

Judas, it is very simple. I underlined the scripture that tells us that once we die, there is no more time for redemption, just judgment. We do not have a purgatory, or any other time, to cleanse ourselves. He paid for all our sins and if we run the race and finish, He is able to cleanse us of all sins, known and unknown.

I have no idea where your question about once saved always save comes from ... surely not from me.

 

I re-read that passage with what you said as perspective and I'm not saying the cleansing of the soul happens before the judgement. If you are bound for Hell than there is no cleansing that would be needed. At least I wouldn't think so. So what I'm talking about is after being judged. If you are judged and saved than all and any sin that has remained (sins that are unrepented) need to be disposed of cause you can not enter into heaven with sin on your soul. That passage you quoted doesn't say you are instantly taken to heaven. I do not know of any passage that says you are instantly taken into heaven the very moment you die.

 

As for the once saved always saved I was just throwing that out for others to comment on because it's something that I don't understand. So if someone that holds that believe could explain it to me.

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Guest Judas Machabeus

Hi Judas,

 

In Christ we are righteous for He took our punishment. This is the foundation that the Apostle Paul was talking about, (1 Cor. 3:11) & then he goes on to tell us to be careful how we build on that. Each person`s work, whether done by the power of the Holy Spirit or done for selfish reasons, all these will be exposed. So what is not repented of, not done through the Holy Spirit, all this will be `burnt up,` in God`s holy fire & only what is of Christ will remain.

 

`If any man`s work is burned up he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet as through fire.`  (1 Cor. 3: 15)

 

Hope that helps you.

 

Just read again your comments & a thought on `repentance.` If a person does not repent of what the Holy Spirit is showing them then, bit by bit they get hardened to His voice & eventually they are not `following,` listening to Christ. They can fall away.

 

 

Very well said. I wholly agree with you. I don't want to put words in your post,so this is all me: I believe that this takes place after you have been judged and before entrance into Heaven.

Edited by Judas Machabeus
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