Guest shiloh357 Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Great point, otherone. If someone is saved in an air plane and it crashes, is that person saved even though they were not baptized? If baptism water is necessary, by definition there are no exemptions to "necessary." I mean, physical hydration is necessary to sustain life. No one is exempt from that. That's what necessary means. It is an absolute term. So if baptism in water is necessary for salvation, then salvation is only available to people who have access to baptism waters. It is, in that case, not a free gift as stated in Rom. 6:23. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllTheGoodNamesAreTaken Posted August 4, 2015 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 7 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,379 Content Per Day: 0.43 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 2 Joined: 07/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted August 4, 2015 (edited) Okay, I have to ask (for myself)... Shiloh, "If someone is saved in an air plane and it crashes, is that person saved" If they are, saved as you first said, then why ask if they are saved? EDIT: I am sorry...I now realize that my question was in your wording, and not in the spirit of what you said. Please forgive my ignorance. Edited August 4, 2015 by AllTheGoodNamesAreTaken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezra Posted August 4, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 134 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 8,142 Content Per Day: 2.35 Reputation: 6,612 Days Won: 20 Joined: 11/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted August 4, 2015 1 Peter 3:20,21 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: Whenever one reads a passage in Scripture which may be "dfficult" to understand, one needs to look at all the other Scriptures pertaining to that subject which are plainer and clearer. On the surface it appears that Peter is telling us that the water of baptism saves us (and there are a couple of other Scriptures which also give this impression). But there are many other Scriptures which teach us precisely how a sinner is saved, one of the clearest being Eph 2:8,9, the other Rom 10:4-13. The NT is very clear that we are saved by grace through faith, at which time we receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Thus Peter noted that the household of Cornelius had been saved (having received the gift of the Holy Spirit). Following that he commanded them to be baptized (Acts 10:44-48). Because salvation and baptism are almost simultaneous in Scripture, it appears that baptism saves, but that is not the case. As one goes through the book of Acts one sees that water baptism always FOLLOWS salvation, and the example of Paul himself shoud be sufficient (Acts 9:1-19). The same apostle Peter refers to Noah and his family and the Ark as being a "figure" or type of salvation. We know that God had already deemed Noah as righteous before he entered the Ark (Gen 6:8,9). But the Ark is a type of Christ, and the water surrounding the Ark is a type of the sinner's ultimate judgment. Noah and his family were not saved by the water, but by the Ark. So those who are in Christ are saved by grace, and their water baptism indicates that they have a "good conscience toward God". Why? because they have repented and received remission of sins, and the water of baptism symbolizes that they died with Christ, and rose again with Christ "to walk in newness of life". Hence Peter says "by the resurrection of Jesus Christ". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted August 5, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,851 Content Per Day: 2.42 Reputation: 2,760 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted August 5, 2015 1 Peter 3:20,21Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:Whenever one reads a passage in Scripture which may be "dfficult" to understand, one needs to look at all the other Scriptures pertaining to that subject which are plainer and clearer. On the surface it appears that Peter is telling us that the water of baptism saves us (and there are a couple of other Scriptures which also give this impression). But there are many other Scriptures which teach us precisely how a sinner is saved, one of the clearest being Eph 2:8,9, the other Rom 10:4-13. The NT is very clear that we are saved by grace through faith, at which time we receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Thus Peter noted that the household of Cornelius had been saved (having received the gift of the Holy Spirit). Following that he commanded them to be baptized (Acts 10:44-48). Because salvation and baptism are almost simultaneous in Scripture, it appears that baptism saves, but that is not the case. As one goes through the book of Acts one sees that water baptism always FOLLOWS salvation, and the example of Paul himself shoud be sufficient (Acts 9:1-19).The same apostle Peter refers to Noah and his family and the Ark as being a "figure" or type of salvation. We know that God had already deemed Noah as righteous before he entered the Ark (Gen 6:8,9). But the Ark is a type of Christ, and the water surrounding the Ark is a type of the sinner's ultimate judgment. Noah and his family were not saved by the water, but by the Ark. So those who are in Christ are saved by grace, and their water baptism indicates that they have a "good conscience toward God". Why? because they have repented and received remission of sins, and the water of baptism symbolizes that they died with Christ, and rose again with Christ "to walk in newness of life". Hence Peter says "by the resurrection of Jesus Christ".. Noah was a righteous man, that's all, without the blood of Jesus Christ, and without the eternal life, righteous but still from the fallen inheritance. Jesus never said, to be baptize for the forgiveness of sins, he said in the name of ....... I can see that in his name you have all.and the father and the holy spirit iit is only through him. He wanted to cut off the Jews from going back to practice, Judaism, what they new all their lifes and for the Gentiles to cut them off from the idols, and so on, you may say from their past, whatever it is. Some people can be save from those things with the right teaching and the renewing of their mind. To be separated to him and be save from the things of the word is another mater, he said by the washing ofthe word of God, receiving the knowledge, in the mean time you are under the blood of the lamb, that's how I see it anyways. Your brother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thereselittleflower Posted August 5, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 58 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 5,457 Content Per Day: 1.69 Reputation: 4,220 Days Won: 37 Joined: 07/01/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted August 5, 2015 Great point, otherone. If someone is saved in an air plane and it crashes, is that person saved even though they were not baptized? If baptism water is necessary, by definition there are no exemptions to "necessary." I mean, physical hydration is necessary to sustain life. No one is exempt from that. That's what necessary means. It is an absolute term. So if baptism in water is necessary for salvation, then salvation is only available to people who have access to baptism waters. It is, in that case, not a free gift as stated in Rom. 6:23. God has given us the normative way. We are to obey. God is not constrained by this and can save whomever He chooses. Christians have long recognized the validity of baptism of desire for those who are unable to be baptized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thereselittleflower Posted August 5, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 58 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 5,457 Content Per Day: 1.69 Reputation: 4,220 Days Won: 37 Joined: 07/01/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted August 5, 2015 1 Peter 3:20,21Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:Whenever one reads a passage in Scripture which may be "dfficult" to understand, one needs to look at all the other Scriptures pertaining to that subject which are plainer and clearer. On the surface it appears that Peter is telling us that the water of baptism saves us (and there are a couple of other Scriptures which also give this impression). But there are many other Scriptures which teach us precisely how a sinner is saved, one of the clearest being Eph 2:8,9, the other Rom 10:4-13. The NT is very clear that we are saved by grace through faith, at which time we receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Thus Peter noted that the household of Cornelius had been saved (having received the gift of the Holy Spirit). Following that he commanded them to be baptized (Acts 10:44-48). Because salvation and baptism are almost simultaneous in Scripture, it appears that baptism saves, but that is not the case. As one goes through the book of Acts one sees that water baptism always FOLLOWS salvation, and the example of Paul himself shoud be sufficient (Acts 9:1-19).The same apostle Peter refers to Noah and his family and the Ark as being a "figure" or type of salvation. We know that God had already deemed Noah as righteous before he entered the Ark (Gen 6:8,9). But the Ark is a type of Christ, and the water surrounding the Ark is a type of the sinner's ultimate judgment. Noah and his family were not saved by the water, but by the Ark. So those who are in Christ are saved by grace, and their water baptism indicates that they have a "good conscience toward God". Why? because they have repented and received remission of sins, and the water of baptism symbolizes that they died with Christ, and rose again with Christ "to walk in newness of life". Hence Peter says "by the resurrection of Jesus Christ". . Noah was a righteous man, that's all, without the blood of Jesus Christ, and without the eternal life, righteous but still from the fallen inheritance. Jesus never said, to be baptize for the forgiveness of sins, he said in the name of ....... I can see that in his name you have all.and the father and the holy spirit iit is only through him. He wanted to cut off the Jews from going back to practice, Judaism, what they new all their lifes and for the Gentiles to cut them off from the idols, and so on, you may say from their past, whatever it is. Some people can be save from those things with the right teaching and the renewing of their mind. To be separated to him and be save from the things of the word is another mater, he said by the washing ofthe word of God, receiving the knowledge, in the mean time you are under the blood of the lamb, that's how I see it anyways. Your brother. Jesus never said, to be baptize for the forgiveness of sins What did Jesus actually say? Jesus: Mark 16:16 He who believes AND IS BAPTIZED shall be saved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 That's a cop out. If the argument that baptism is necessary for a person to be saved, then it is necessary for everyone. Necessity doesn't have exceptions whenever you need an exception to plug up a hole in your errant theology. Either salvation is a FREE gift as Scripture says it is, or there are other necessary works attached to it and the Bible can't be trusted. Look up the word constrained in a dictionary, miss grammar... God never made baptism a requirement of salvation. God will save any one who has put their faith in Jesus and he does that BEFORE they are baptized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thereselittleflower Posted August 5, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 58 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 5,457 Content Per Day: 1.69 Reputation: 4,220 Days Won: 37 Joined: 07/01/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted August 5, 2015 That's a cop out. If the argument that baptism is necessary for a person to be saved, then it is necessary for everyone. Necessity doesn't have exceptions whenever you need an exception to plug up a hole in your errant theology. Either salvation is a FREE gift as Scripture says it is, or there are other necessary works attached to it and the Bible can't be trusted. Look up the word constrained in a dictionary, miss grammar... God never made baptism a requirement of salvation. God will save any one who has put their faith in Jesus and he does that BEFORE they are baptized. How is there a cop out? The scriptures say salvation comes by hearing the gospel. Are you saying that God can never forgive anyone who had not heard the gospel of Jesus anywhere for any reason? Didn't you not essentially say that God is not constrained by this when it comes to those who have never heard the gospel? Shiloh: I think it is important to realize that we don't have a definitive answer to the question raised by the OP. God doesn't explicitly tell us what happens to those down the centuries who died all over the world who never heard, never knew, died in ignorance, never hearing about God, Jesus or the Gospel of Salvation. There are some things in the Bible we will not figure out in this lifetime simply because God hasn't given us enough light on those matters. What happens to those who died and never heard? I don't know exactly. But guess what?? God is sovereign and he will do the righteous thing. He is faithful to do the right thing every time. So, it's best to leave these things in God's hands. I don't know the answer to this issue, but at the same time, it's not our problem to solve. It's God's problem and I leave it to him to figure out. That frees me up to deal with other issues in Scripture. So how is it that God is not constrained on who He can save based on hearing the gospel, but He would be constrained when it comes to the words of Jesus about baptism? God never made baptism a requirement of salvation. The clear, plain, unambiguous words of Jesus contradict you Jesus: Mark 16:16 He who believes AND IS BAPTIZED shall be saved. Just as God does not explicitly tell us what happens to those who never heard, never knew, died in ignorance, so God does not explicitly tell us about those who through no fault of their own, never received baptism before they died. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 Again, look up the word constrained. You are really misusing that word. Secondly, I said that in connection to those who never heard the Gospel. That's not the same as someone who has heard, believed on Christ but has not been baptized. You are trying to apply my words to an issue I was not addressing. That's why your exegesis of the Bible is so sloppy and incompetent. If you will misuse my words, it is no surprise that you misuse and pervert Scripture. Your as bad with twisting my words as you are with twisting the words of Scripture. You really cannot be trusted in a debate. The cop out is "the baptism of desire" you mentioned. The fact is you can't argue that baptism is necessary for only those who have access to baptismal water. It's a logical contradiction. Either it's necessary for all or for none. Again, salvation is a free gift based on faith alone in Christ alone. He is the object of salvation and we are saved solely through his finished work on the cross and nothing else, including baptism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thereselittleflower Posted August 5, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 58 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 5,457 Content Per Day: 1.69 Reputation: 4,220 Days Won: 37 Joined: 07/01/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted August 5, 2015 Constrained: severely restrict the scope, extent, or activity of. That is exactly how I am using it. And it doesn't matter what you call it, God is not constrained by the ordinary way He has given us to be saved. we are saved solely through his finished work on the cross and nothing else, including baptism. You are not contradicting me Shiloh. You are contradicting the clear, unambiguous, plain words of Christ. Again: The words of Jesus preserved in Divinely Inspired Scripture: Mark 16:16 He who believes AND IS BAPTIZED shall be saved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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