Guest shiloh357 Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 No, constrained means compelled, forced or obliged. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/constrained?s=t Yes, but those words in Mark do not mean that baptism is necessary for salvation. One good way to spot a false teacher is when they try to build a doctrine on one or two verses, or even part of a verse and they infuse their own meaning into that. It's classic eisegesis. The entire verse tells us that those who do no believe will not be saved. It doesn't say, "those who do not believe and are not baptized will not be saved." Jesus is not giving a formula for salvation. He is simply stating a fact. Those who are obedient will be saved. The obedience to be baptized is the outward sign that you are saved. A person who believes and is baptized shows that he is saved. Even if a person doesn't get baptized, he is still saved because there are numerous scenarios where a person doesn't have access to water. if water baptism is necessary for salvation, then we should never preach the Gospel anywhere that there is no access to baptismal waters God doesn't have several means of salvation. God has only one plan of salvation and no one gets a special way to God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 1. The Pharisees rejected the Deity of Jesus, just you do. Your rejection of Jesus' deity assigns you a place in the Lake of Fire. The deity of Jesus is a core doctrine of the Christian faith. You are a hell-bound sinner just like the Pharisees who rejected Jesus and so your attempt to draw a comparison between me and the Pharisees is hypocritical on its face. You reject the deity of Jesus, but I am not rejecting baptism; rather I am upholding the biblical doctrine of baptism and not only that, but I have been obedient to Jesus to be baptized and so frankly, the person who is not saved is you, even by your inaccurate standard. A Christ-rejecting sinner like yourself has nothing to say to anyone about how a person is saved. 2. Water baptism doesn't make you a new creation. The Bible says, "if any man is in Christ, he is a new creation..." We are placed in Christ by the Holy Spirit, and that happens prior to water baptism. Our sins are not washed away by water baptism. The Bible says that it is by Jesus, our final offering of sin that we are cleansed and perfected. It is the blood of Jesus that cleanses from sin. 3. We always receive the Holy Spirit prior to water baptism. Eph. 1:13-14 makes no connection between receiving the Holy Spirit and water baptism. You are linking Scriptures together and apply them in ways not intended by the author. But then you are a false teacher and instrument of Satan to sow deception, so I can see why you would do that. 4. Rare exceptions??? Yeah that doesn't fly. There was no need for any exceptions. God doesn't make any exceptions. Those "exceptions" prove that baptism ISN'T necessary for salvation. Those are not exceptions. They illustrate how it works. There are no exceptions where the plan of salvation is concerned. 5. Jesus' baptism can't really be compared because John's baptism had nothing to do with salvation. Those who were baptized under John did not have salvation. Jesus' baptism was in simple obedience to the Father and it was the first time that Jesus publicly identified with humanity. The second time was on the cross when he died in man's place. Mark 16:16 is very simple, and it is not a formula for salvation. A person is saved by faith alone in Christ alone and he is baptized. Baptism proves that a person is saved. Water baptism is the first evidence of salvation and in that sense a person who believes and is baptized is saved. When we start adding things to salvation, we are calling God a liar. God says that salvation is a FREE gift, not something that has to be earned or deserved or worked for in any way. Man's sinful nature and his pride can't accept that. In addition, it diminishes the work of Christ on the cross. It means that Jesus' work on the cross is not sufficient. It means that Jesus didn't really accomplish man's salvation on the cross, and that if want to be saved, we need to look to ourselves, and make for Christ's insufficiency. It means that Jesus doesn't really have the power to save us. We would need to save ourselves, we need to be our own saviors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 Jesus was God and the Holy Spirit didn't descend on Jesus to give Him something he didn't have. He descended on Jesus to identify him to John. Jesus, as God didn't need the gift of the Holy Spirit. Being born of the water and the Spirit is not a reference to baptism. Being born of water and the Spirit refer to ONE thing, not two. The water and the blood refer to the inward work of the Holy Spirit. We are not saved by water baptism, but by the Holy Spirit's cleansing work that baptism points to. Romans 6:4 is not referring to water baptism, but the work of the Holy Spirit who places us in Christ (baptizes us) the minute we are born again. Water baptism follows the new birth. It does not serve as the means of the attaining the new birth Mark 16:16 isn't a formula for salvation, so Jesus isn't saying that baptism is necessary for salvation. Baptism is an act of obedience, a testimony of salvation, but Jesus is not saying is necessary for salvation. You can keep posting and reposting it, but you are an unregenerate, Christ rejecting sinner who hasnt' even believed in the first place. You have rejected Christ's command to believe upon Him as God and such you cannot have Him as a savior because only God has saved. So it rather hypocritical for a person who has rejected Christ to demand that real Christians who DO believe in Jesus, accept your inaccurate and sloppy handling of Scripture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 The Holy Spirit confirmed what John already knew. Jesus was/is God. Jesus did not need to be granted the Holy Spirit. No, water in John 3:5 doesn't refer to water baptism. Christian baptism didn't exist at the time Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus. The "water" refers to the cleansing work of the Holy Spirit. But you don't have the Holy Spirit so I can see why you are unable to understand. Water baptism is mentioned in certain contexts, but water is used spiritually and are not references to baptism. Nothing in John 3:5 indicates baptism is mentioned. You are reading baptism into the passage. Romans 6:3-6 is not talking about water baptism. It is talking the baptism of the Holy Spirit where we are placed into Chirst by the Holy Spirit. You are trying force water baptism on to a passage that is not referencing water baptism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 No, Jesus was God and such, was setting an example for us, but He had no need of receiving the Holy Spirit. Jesus as God had no need of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Jesus was God in the flesh. Jesus did not become a new man at his baptism, if you say otherwise, you are a heretic. John 3:5 mentions nothing about baptism, it is not teaching on baptism. Baptism isn't mentioned at all in John 3. Nicodemus didn't come way thinking he needed to be baptized. Jesus was talking about being born again. John 3 has nothing to do with baptism, but with the inner working of the Holy Spirit on the heart of one who believes. No, the person with the heremeneutics problem is you. You are assuming baptism is referenced by "water" and you are filtering the Scriptures through that assumption, which amounts to reading your own errant thoughts into the passage and imposing something on it that it didn't intend to convey. John 3:5 is an explanation of being born again, not about baptism. Nothing you say will change that. I am not arguing against the necessity of baptism. I believe baptism is necessary. It is necessary because Jesus commanded it, not because it is necessary for salvation. Rom. 6:3-6 has nothing to do with water baptism. It is referencing an inner work of the Holy Spirit who places in Christ. That's is the kind of "baptism" the passage is talking about. Your mistake is taking the word "baptism" and assuming that every time it is used, it is referring to water baptism. You fail to understand that there is more than one kind of baptism in the NT, and different kinds of baptism are for different purposes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willa Posted August 5, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 68 Topic Count: 186 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 14,242 Content Per Day: 3.33 Reputation: 16,652 Days Won: 30 Joined: 08/14/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted August 5, 2015 When Peter preached at Cornelius' house, the Holy Spirit fell on them when they just heard the Gospel and believed. So Peter's argument was how could he withhold baptism from them since they had already received the Holy Spirit and were born again? We are born again when we hear the Gospel and believe. Faith is a gift from God. John 3:5 must be read in the context of John 3:6 NKJV That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Water refers to natural birth and Spirit refers to being born again. Verse 8 goes on to explain that the Spirit pneuma wind blows where it wishes. There is no real formula as to people being born again. Only God knows hearts and whether people truly have believed the Gospel. I have known people to have been baptized in several churches just to join them, but their motives were to get clients or to have the right appearance for politics. They had not repented and turned to Christ for forgiveness, desiring to rely on Him as their Redeemer and God. Baptism is no magical ritual. But it does work faith in us as we understand more fully what has already happened to us. Our old nature is dead and buried. The old person is gone and we have new life in us--the life of Jesus Himself by His Holy Spirit. Many people believe the Jesus is God the Father's Son, but they don't want to say that Jesus is God because to them only the Father is God. However, John 1 plainly states that Jesus existed as the Word before being born here on earth, and the Word was God, and the Word was in the beginning With God. Moreover, the Word took part in creation. So there is more than one expression or distinct person of the Godhead. Genesis 1:2 also mentions the Spirit of God hovering over the waters. So the Word and the Spirit are both mentioned in addition to Father God, and the three spoke to one another. Let US make man in OUR image. It is so easy yet so profound. We prefer to call them Father God, Son God, and Spirit God to distinguish them. I suspect that there are people who are born again, but who can't understand the nature of the Trinity. You and I can't fully understand the nature of God either, because we are merely the creation and He is beyond our total comprehension. We can only understand how He has revealed Himself in the Bible. John 1:18b The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. Doctrinally I agree that God is 3 in 1 and that this is His revelation of Himself in Scripture. But as John 3 says, the Wind/Spirit blows where He wishes, and so is everyone who is born of the Spirit. The only real way we can see this is by the effects on peoples' lives and the fruit produced in them: love, joy, peace, patience kindness goodness long-suffering, faithfulness, and self control. They will have love for each other. They will not pass judgement on each others hearts because only God can judge righteously. They will judge actions and words as to whether they are Christ like. 1 John 4:2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichirst, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world. John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. Col. 2:8-10 NKJV Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power. All of God, the 3 in 1 Godhead, dwelt in Christ while He dwelt here in an earthly body. Jesus Christ was Immanuel, God with us. Doubting Thomas confessed the risen Christ to be "My Lord and my God!" So He was fully God and fully human. The biggest advantage to accepting the Trinity is that suddenly a whole lot of the Bible makes more sense. It unlocks more truth and more blessing. Baptism is an act of obedience in response to the leading of the Holy Spirit. It is the result of faith, just as are restitution, hungering for and reading the Bible, and other fruit befitting repentance. I was baptized at my mom's insistence, not the leading of the Holy Spirit. But I had confessed Him to my friends and had made restitution in response to the Holy Spirit. I had purchased an AMP New Testament and read it in response to the Holy Spirit. So I was walking according to the Spirit and praying. But I had no desire to join the church I was raised in because God was not feeding me there. As to the OP, I allowed our children to be baptized in early grade school after stalling them till God told me not to discourage them. One of them had walked in the door and declared that he had asked Jesus to come into his heart and now if I go away he will never be alone! (I had left him with as sitter while at a Bible study) I asked the other son if he would like to ask Jesus into his heart. He had replied, looking down at his little chest, "Mother, He's not in me, I'm in Him!" So I figured they could always get baptized again when they were older, and they did. Meanwhile they had become little evangelists, challenging neighbors to go to church and bringing their friends with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thereselittleflower Posted August 5, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 58 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 5,457 Content Per Day: 1.69 Reputation: 4,220 Days Won: 37 Joined: 07/01/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted August 5, 2015 Shiloh357 The Holy Spirit confirmed what John already knew. Jesus was/is God. Jesus did not need to be granted the Holy Spirit Lol what a bunch of woffle...listen as I stated right from the beginning the only reason why a perfect sinless man like Jesus was being baptized was to fulfill all righteousness. Jesus baptized himself in water, in the Jordan River, setting us an example of Righteousness! He did this for our sakes --- to show us plainly that we must be Baptized, if we intend to follow him. Take off the old and put on the new which can only be achieved at baptizm. This is not rocket science. Christian baptism didn't exist at the time Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus. Lol with such reasoning that would mean nothing Jesus said in his life time would apply today. John 3:5 is what you would call preparatory teaching Like for example in Gen 2:24 when Adam and Eve were told that husband and wife were to leave the mothers and fathers? Adam and Eve didn't have mothers and fathers....the statement was obviously for future generations. Do you not understand that verses like Matthew 18: 15-17 (go to your brother if he sins against you) or Matthew 19:9 (no divorce except fornication) applies today? John 3:5 was intended by Jesus to go into effect when the new covenant law went into effect Mark 16: 15-16 and Luke 24:47 - New Testament baptizm for salvation was to start beginning at Jerusalem. Water baptism is mentioned in certain contexts, but water is used spiritually and are not references to baptism. Nothing in John 3:5 indicates baptism is mentioned. You are reading baptism into the passage. No just reading the plain literal simple meaning of Jesus .... cordinal rule when it comes to Hermeneutics which your clearly failing to apply. Romans 6:3-6 is not talking about water baptism. It is talking the baptism of the Holy Spirit where we are placed into Chirst by the Holy Spirit. You are trying force water baptism on to a passage that is not referencing water baptism. It is contradictory/ inconsistent for you now to turn around and say Rom 6:3-4 is talking about HS baptizm when arguing against the necessity of water baptizm. You clearly missed that if Romans 6:3-6 is talking about the HS as the element of the immersion, then what is the Co dition of that person when he is rasied up out of that element? Verses 17 -18 show we are made free from sin when we obey ...the doctrine of HS Baptism is a gift to be received not a command to be obeyed Rom 6:3-6 teaches that one must be baptized in order to get in christ It matches exactly what Acts 2:38, 22:16, and I Peter 3:21 People are confused about the the water and the Spirit, diminishing the importance and relevance of the material and giving all importance to the spiritual. But we are created by the union of the physical, material with the spiritual. Man wa formed from the dust of the earth, and then God breathed into man, and man became a living soul - a being in which the spiritual is united with the physical. And so God came to us in a physical, material body. Jesus died for us, offered himself up for us, in a physical, material body. Jesus used physical, material object united with the power of the Holy Spirit to work miracles. Jesus used the saliva from his mouth, the soil of the earth to make a mud, then used that mud, placed it on a blind man's eyes, and then used water and with the power of the Holy Spirit to heal him and restore his sight. John 9:7 When He had said this, He spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and applied the clay to his eyes, and said to him, "Go, wash in the pool of Siloam " (which is translated, Sent). So he went away and washed, and came back seeing. This is metaphorical of our salvation. The mud placed over the mans eyes is sin blinding us from the things of God - the water of the pool of Siloam is baptism, washing away our sins. This is where he is healed. This is where his sight is restored. - for I was once blind, but now I see If Jesus used the soil of the earth, and water, and his own physical, material spit, to make mud to place on a blind man's eyes then coupled the use of water with the power of the Holy Spirit to heal him and restore his sight, how who are we to nay say that God has chosen to use the element of water with the power of the Holy Spirit to save us in baptism? John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. "Of water and the Spirit" is Baptism. Baptism requires both: water used with the power of the Holy Spirit to be valid. When Jesus was baptized the Holy Spirit came as a dove, signifying the importance of baptism in Christ's kingdom, uniting the material, water, with the power of the Holy Spirit in the act of baptism. Jesus' words become plain, describing baptism: Unless one is baptized, born of the water and the spirit, one cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 1 Peter 3:21 ... Baptism now saves you...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmbld Posted August 5, 2015 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 48 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,491 Content Per Day: 0.55 Reputation: 1,457 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/23/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/02/1971 Share Posted August 5, 2015 God has no need of physical water to save my soul. I am saved by faith. I was baptized to be obedient, to publically declare Jesus is Lord, and to demonstrate symbolically the old man is dead/buried I have new life in Christ. I thank many here at worthy who have helped my understanding of baptism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmbld Posted August 5, 2015 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 48 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,491 Content Per Day: 0.55 Reputation: 1,457 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/23/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/02/1971 Share Posted August 5, 2015 Jesus words are plain: Unless one is baptized one cannot enter into the kingdom of God. I erased too much of the quote, sorry. So many words. My question, can anyone demonstrate, with few words and not going in circles, what baptism the above quote is referring to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thereselittleflower Posted August 5, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 58 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 5,457 Content Per Day: 1.69 Reputation: 4,220 Days Won: 37 Joined: 07/01/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted August 5, 2015 Jesus words are plain: Unless one is baptized one cannot enter into the kingdom of God. I erased too much of the quote, sorry. So many words. My question, can anyone demonstrate, with few words and not going in circles, what baptism the above quote is referring to? The truths of God are simple. They are not simplistic. So while they are simple, they require the building first of the foundation, then building on that foundation. Baptism by water, as the verse itself says. 1 Peter 3:20-21 after they were disobedient long ago when God patiently waited in the days of Noah as an ark was being constructed. In the ark a few, that is eight souls, were delivered through water. And this prefigured baptism, which now saves you Just as Noah and his family passed through the water in the ark, so we must pass through the water in baptism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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