Nyoka Posted September 24, 2014 Group: Junior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 89 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 16 Days Won: 1 Joined: 03/04/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/25/1963 Share Posted September 24, 2014 (edited) I know that if I am wrong on the following then there are plenty of mature knowledgable christians on here to correct me and I always welcome correction when I am shown to be wrong. I know we are all human and can make mistakes at times. I am not talking about those who make a mistake that they truely repent of and would never do again. I know there have been times when I have got angry over something my husband has said or done and then later realised I was wrong. I have always looked to the bible to guide me on how we are to treat our family members and what is godly behaviour toward them. One verse that has always struck me as powerful over this is: 1Ti 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel. I am no Greek scholar but Strongs definition of the term 'provide not for' is: προνοέω pronoeō pron-o-eh'-o From G4253 and G3539; to consider in advance, that is, look out for beforehand (active voice by way of maintenance for others; middle voice by way of circumspection for oneself): - provide (for). This suggests to me that we should always have the welfare and wellbeing of our family first and formost in our thinking and actions toward them. I do understand we all make mistakes and are not perfect yet so I am not talking about someone who has made a dreadful mistake and is turely repentant and would never do it again but two questions do occur to me over this verse: 1) Is someone who is committing adultery truely looking out for family first? 2) Is somone who is abusing their family truely looking out for their family first? To be honest I don't see how they could be. If that is the case then this verse does tell us that they have denied the faith and anyone that denies the faith is an unbeliever no matter what they call themselves. Their fruits have given them away as to what they truely are in their hearts. Jesus does back us up in this when he tells us the two great commandments: Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment. Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Is abuse showing love for your family? No it is not. Is adultery showing love for your spouse/family? No it is not. Abuse and adultery do not show the fruit of the Spirit either: Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law; Eph 5:9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth). What is good and righteous about abuse and adultery? Nothing. So if I am right then an abuser or an adulterer is denying the faith and no more than an unbeliever trying to pretend to be a believer so in that case this verse would apply: 1Co 7:15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace. I do believe that Jesus gives us the verses about divorce as He knows that the reasons for divorce can, often, can lead us away from Him and all Gods promises. These are just my own opinions fwiw. Edited September 24, 2014 by Nyoka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willa Posted September 25, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 68 Topic Count: 185 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 14,224 Content Per Day: 3.34 Reputation: 16,647 Days Won: 30 Joined: 08/14/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted September 25, 2014 The 1 Cor. 7:15-16 passage is the basis of my thought. If the spouse has left you and married another, was that person a believer and have they continued in the faith (he who endures to the end shall be saved). It would seem to me that if they were an unbeliever, you are free to remarry. (In such case the believing spouse is no longer bound to the other.) The problem is that a person who has been so deeply wronged has a lot of baggage to bring into the next marriage, and will need Christian counseling quite often. Our baptist pastor married a woman who had been divorsed under such circustances. They went through years of counseling to work it all out. He also was having trouble being ordained because he had married a divorsed woman. But it was decided in favor of ordination on the basis of her innocence in the situation leaving her free to remarry. Willa Thanks for your reply. The case you are talking about in Cor. is a clear case of an unbeliever leaving, so divorce is permitted here but does it automatically imply that remarriage is allowed in this circumstance? It doesn't really say. It just speaks about not being bound to the unbeliever anymore (unequally yoked) in a covenant. If combined with the scripture in Matt 5 it doesn't seem that it indicates a freedom to remarry unless there was also adultery involved with that unbelieving spouse? It seems to me if a person is no longer bound by a covenant, she is them free to remarry. If a person marrys some who is in covenant with another there would be adultry. But where there is no longer a covenant there can't be adultry. That is how my mind is reading it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warrior777 Posted September 25, 2014 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 51 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/31/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/05/1969 Author Share Posted September 25, 2014 There is no simple answer. Was the bible created for man or man for the bible? According to Paul the things that were written down were for our learning. When I was immature in my faith I was very perverse and legalistic in my application of the scriptures to any life situation. Everything God did has been out of love as God is love. There is a time to marry, a time to divorce, a time to remarry as well as a time to stay unmarried after divorce. Love is the answer. One might think that divorce and remarriage can never be the way of love. Let that one alone to live by their conscience. For them to do so cannot be love. Love has done a great many things. Love sent a whole nation into captivity and dispersed among the nations. Love flooded a world to save 8 people alive. Love knows when to say when. Love knows when to say yes or no. Follow after love in everything. We live in perilous times and love demands we act according to the best interest of all involved including ourselves. So whatever we do with marriage, divorce and remarriage it must be done in love. Let no man tell you that you cannot do what love demands because of some silly legalistic narrow view of God through a personal perception of scripture viewed as dogma because they think so. Live according to love as God gives you ability. Wouldn't it be grand if no one ever divorced? God bless all who marry! I get what you are saying and in many cases things need to be balanced out, but this is very dangerous ground you are walking on with this. What does legalistic really mean? Yes we do need to do everything in love, but we need to do it with God's will and word in mind - always! Love demands to follow scripture - God's will - to the best way we can, especially where scripture is known for a matter: John 14:15, 21 If you love Me, keep My commandments. He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him. John 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. 1 John 5:1-3 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. This is written all over the Bible. God really emphasizes to keep scripture, by this we know that we are walking in Love. If we are not "legalistic" the way I understand it you are using the term, then we can very easily be off track and on a dangerous course where our deceived and sometimes wicked hearts lead us to, especially when our minds are not renewed and we think we are walking in love, so it must be the right way, so let's take scripture not so seriously (it's an easy pitfall this way).... - In the end we have to be guided by/through (rightly applied!) scripture to be in the will of God, because that's were the will of God is known and should we get a personal word from God, it still has to line up with scripture. Again, scripture is very clear when divorce is allowed, that was not so much my original question (except the one about the remarried couples). Any other way or form that we veer away from that or make up our own rules (when and what is allowed and create special cases) we are in danger of walking off the path into sin. And this is why I started this thread, to find out the truth behind the issue of remarriage so not to veer off into a path that is out of God's will, not only for me, but most likely millions of others that are confronted with the same questions (who also want to do the right thing), since with this issue of remarriage it is not so clear in some cases, but it is very clear in others (e.g.divorce) and where that is known we have to abide by it, because if we don't, then we are actually walking OUTSIDE of Love - since the opposite is also true:" He who does not keep my commandments does NOT love Me and is NOT abiding in My love!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warrior777 Posted September 25, 2014 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 51 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/31/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/05/1969 Author Share Posted September 25, 2014 this one is too easy Romans 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by thelaw to her husband so long as he liveth; but if thehusband be dead, she is loosed from the law of herhusband. Romans 7:3So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if herhusband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. So then, what if her husband commits adultery, is she then loosed from the law of her husband? And then if so, is she allowed to remarry while her husband is still alive? If the woman commits adultery, can the husband loose her from his law and then marry another while his wife is still alive? What if nobody had committed adultery in that case and the wife had left and divorced the husband, is he free to remarry? What if the husband had just left and divorced her, is she then free to remarry? (For the previous case): What if the wife had remarried, is he free to remarry? What if the husband had remarried already after the divorce is she free to remarry? The answers have to line up with all known scriptures - Still that easy?... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warrior777 Posted September 25, 2014 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 51 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/31/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/05/1969 Author Share Posted September 25, 2014 Sin leads to Hell and death. We should not willfully sin after receiving knowledge of the truth. However, I will not ask who ascends or descends. I am not the deciding factor for one's salvation. However, you should have clean hands and a pure heart. You should also work out your salvation with fear and trembling... no? Divorce is not adultery. We are talking about remarriage and what is adultery. Although this is a sensitive issue, there is a simple answer. And Jesus gives it. He did not say it's complicated when asked, did He? The issue is in evaluating this discussion on marriage, divorce, and re-marriage one must take a look at the entire flow of Scripture. Again, let me rephrase my question. If a person divorces and re-marries yet they claim Jesus Christ as Savior are they going to face eternal death (hell)? God bless, GE I think I already answered this question several times in my posts and answers to others, please reread my posts for it, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warrior777 Posted September 25, 2014 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 51 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/31/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/05/1969 Author Share Posted September 25, 2014 As your wife committed adultery, even the naysayers against divorce would agree you can remarry. In fact many would state adultery is THE reason for being allowed to divorce and remarry. The Bible also states that if the unbeliever wishes to leave...let them...Yet if the unbelieving one leaves, let him leave; the brother or the sister is not under bondage in such cases, but God has called us to peace. I Cor 7:15 However, I have no problem with you wanting her to stay...I can understand that. That's the black and white answer...and this is not hypothetical for many here.. Just to quickly interject here, I think you answered you own question/statement here that you stated in the prior post. If scripture gives a specific reason for a matter to be a decisive rule for that matter and no other beyond that, then we simply cannot make up another reason to decide that matter. Everything else is in danger of walking out of God's will into sin. In this case Jesus Himself even stated explicitly that this is to be the reason that rules to decide this matter and Paul led by the Holy Spirit stated the only other one found in God's word under this New Covenant. And Jesus even gave an explanation to why that is: Because people out of their hardened hearts were giving all kinds of reasons why they wanted to divorce their spouse (under Moses), so He said that this will not work like that anymore and He made a stricter rule, which was even given from the beginning, but temporarily changed under the old Law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warrior777 Posted September 25, 2014 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 51 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/31/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/05/1969 Author Share Posted September 25, 2014 I have stayed away from this thread because it is personal for me. However, it seems that people love talking in hypothetical situations these days. But this is real and affects real people with real feelings. So let me put a face to this conversation so people don't have to use a hypothetical. My situation with this is simple. When me and my now ex-wife got married she was following no religion and I was a satanist. During our marriage I got saved, she did not. Long story short, she left me telling me she had been sleeping with other people and wanted to be with one of them and also she didn't agree with Christianity, she wanted to follow Wicca or witchcraft as most would call it. I begged her to stay and she would not. After a few years, she decided she wanted to marry another guy she had hooked up with, which meant she needed to divorce me. I fought the divorce but she went through with it and divorced me against my will. I am a single Father of 2 kids ( yes I got the kids ) if I was to find someone and remarry, would it be a sin? Why or Why not. I ask for responses but I am not sure if I will respond much because of this being so personal for me. I hope everyone understands. First of all I am very sorry that happened to you, and yes, it is even harder when children are involved. But I thank God that He saved you out of that past dark path you were on and brought you into the Light. To briefly answer your question, as I already did several times in my prior posts (if you care to read or reread), because it is also especially for people like yourself that I made this post, to ask for truth to make it known and provide answers that will bring people into the right walk with God or keep them on it. Since your ex-wife was unfaithful in this case scripture states that you are free to remarry since she had broken the marriage covenant. Especially in your case I have to say, if your ex-wife was not interested to accept Jesus even any time down the road and leave the occult ways, it would have been extraordinary hard to continue this relationship, since there would have been a lot of spiritual issues, more so than with an unbeliever who just doesn't believe, without being into the occult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warrior777 Posted September 25, 2014 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 51 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/31/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/05/1969 Author Share Posted September 25, 2014 I know that if I am wrong on the following then there are plenty of mature knowledgable christians on here to correct me and I always welcome correction when I am shown to be wrong. I know we are all human and can make mistakes at times. I am not talking about those who make a mistake that they truely repent of and would never do again. I know there have been times when I have got angry over something my husband has said or done and then later realised I was wrong. I have always looked to the bible to guide me on how we are to treat our family members and what is godly behaviour toward them. One verse that has always struck me as powerful over this is: 1Ti 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel. I am no Greek scholar but Strongs definition of the term 'provide not for' is: προνοέω pronoeō pron-o-eh'-o From G4253 and G3539; to consider in advance, that is, look out for beforehand (active voice by way of maintenance for others; middle voice by way of circumspection for oneself): - provide (for). This suggests to me that we should always have the welfare and wellbeing of our family first and formost in our thinking and actions toward them. I do understand we all make mistakes and are not perfect yet so I am not talking about someone who has made a dreadful mistake and is turely repentant and would never do it again but two questions do occur to me over this verse: 1) Is someone who is committing adultery truely looking out for family first? 2) Is somone who is abusing their family truely looking out for their family first? To be honest I don't see how they could be. If that is the case then this verse does tell us that they have denied the faith and anyone that denies the faith is an unbeliever no matter what they call themselves. Their fruits have given them away as to what they truely are in their hearts. Jesus does back us up in this when he tells us the two great commandments: Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment. Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Is abuse showing love for your family? No it is not. Is adultery showing love for your spouse/family? No it is not. Abuse and adultery do not show the fruit of the Spirit either: Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law; Eph 5:9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth). What is good and righteous about abuse and adultery? Nothing. So if I am right then an abuser or an adulterer is denying the faith and no more than an unbeliever trying to pretend to be a believer so in that case this verse would apply: 1Co 7:15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace. I do believe that Jesus gives us the verses about divorce as He knows that the reasons for divorce can, often, can lead us away from Him and all Gods promises. These are just my own opinions fwiw. I get what you are saying and first of all thanks also for your input. You brought up an intriguing aspect of this, but we have to be careful, because then we can throw in pretty much any sin at our partner and easily make an unbeliever out of him/her. Like you said we all make mistakes and if that spouse is a saved child of God ,who is somewhere off the path maybe momentarily, God gives them time to repent. I believe that verse that Paul was writing to the Corinthians was about a married couple where one of them got saved during the marriage and the other one refused. He describes how the believing spouse should behave toward the unbeliever to win them over, but if they absolutely don't want to have anything to do with the Christian faith and they leave, then the believer is not bound to them, because it says that how can one know if they ever will convert. This is based on the given foundation that a believer should not marry an unbeliever to begin with. That's why your proposed comparison is not quite something I would base a judgment on, there are several things that play into a walk as a believer and also the maturity level one is walking in their faith, as well as many other things that have to be considered. Though it's true that these behaviors mentioned should be part (or not, respectively) of a believer's life in an ideal perfect case and the lack of these also are exhibited by an unbeliever, but we all still are learning and walking out our salvation. There are unbelievers that only give lip service to the faith but they usually do not exhibit any fruit of the Christian walk really and the discernment of the Holy Spirit should give that away. So I would caution against this, especially citing abuse, which could almost mean anything that is not quite done in a loving way, as a cause for divorce with the excuse that now we made an unbeliever out of someone. That is at best quite dangerous in making us out to be judging as God, as judge and executioner in this case, just to find and excuse and reason to justify our own desire, here it would be to remarry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warrior777 Posted September 25, 2014 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 51 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/31/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/05/1969 Author Share Posted September 25, 2014 The 1 Cor. 7:15-16 passage is the basis of my thought. If the spouse has left you and married another, was that person a believer and have they continued in the faith (he who endures to the end shall be saved). It would seem to me that if they were an unbeliever, you are free to remarry. (In such case the believing spouse is no longer bound to the other.) The problem is that a person who has been so deeply wronged has a lot of baggage to bring into the next marriage, and will need Christian counseling quite often. Our baptist pastor married a woman who had been divorsed under such circustances. They went through years of counseling to work it all out. He also was having trouble being ordained because he had married a divorsed woman. But it was decided in favor of ordination on the basis of her innocence in the situation leaving her free to remarry. Willa Thanks for your reply. The case you are talking about in Cor. is a clear case of an unbeliever leaving, so divorce is permitted here but does it automatically imply that remarriage is allowed in this circumstance? It doesn't really say. It just speaks about not being bound to the unbeliever anymore (unequally yoked) in a covenant. If combined with the scripture in Matt 5 it doesn't seem that it indicates a freedom to remarry unless there was also adultery involved with that unbelieving spouse? It seems to me if a person is no longer bound by a covenant, she is them free to remarry. If a person marrys some who is in covenant with another there would be adultry. But where there is no longer a covenant there can't be adultry. That is how my mind is reading it. Yes, you have a point there, even though I have heard the opposite being presented before, with that scripture meaning that they are not bound to that person anymore, but just loosed from that marriage, they said that it would not automatically mean that they are free to remarry showing somewhat of a contradiction when citing Jesus' only exclusion of adultery. So I threw this viewpoint out here to see if someone can either refute or maybe strengthen it with comparison of other scriptures even in principle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger Eye Posted September 25, 2014 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 118 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 52 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/20/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/31/1950 Share Posted September 25, 2014 There has been much division in this thread, and it is not surprising. I think this couple needs to turn to God and find the answer. Not the flesh, and not man, but God himself. And he does not leave us void of answers for everything in our lives. This couple ultimately has to make the decision for themselves. And they should ask God's guidance. I have found three verses to help them. 1. James 1:5; "If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you". 2. Psalm 37:4; "Take delight in the Lord, and he will give you the desires of your heart". 3. Proverbs 3:5-6; "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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