OneLight Posted November 1, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.24 Reputation: 9,760 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted November 1, 2014 We read that the rapture will be at the last trump. Saying that, we don't know when the last trump will sound. Hey OneLight, it's been a while. Well the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. As a matter of Fact, the absence of evidence in this particular case is the Compelling Factor in the Matter.... If "The Rapture" was Mid/Post Great Tribulation, and given the excruciating detail in the Book Of Revelation...it should be there. Alas, it is not; Ergo, it must be Before. Lack of evidence is not proof that the contrary is true. However, if evidence can reasonably be expected to be found, then lack of evidence is evidence to the contrary. The silence on these 3 proofs alone settle the matter, quite abruptly IMHO... 1. How is "The Bride/The Wife/The Church/Born Again Christians" @ The Marriage Supper in Heaven then accompanying HIM on HIS Return (Second Coming) while still being on the Earth during the Great Tribulation?? 2. Any other position than the Pre-Trib position has "The Church"/Born Again Christians going through the Great Tribulation.... Well 98% of "The Church"/Born Again Christians are DEAD (From Pentecost until now or when it's time). So for "The Church" to go through the "Great Tribulation" on the Earth, They would have to be RESURRECTED and Walking around on the Earth so as to go through The Great Tribulation. So unless you can show this scenario in Scripture, welcome to Pre-Trib. 3. (Matthew 24:36) " But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." (Mark 13:32) " But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." (Luke 12:40) " Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not." (2 Peter 3:10) "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." If any "Christians" that have read Daniel Chapter 9:27 (Every "Christian" {other than newly converted} that I ever met is somewhat to Overtly aware of it) Observe or Hear of the Abomination of Desolation....They can more or less Mark their Calendars and Set Their Watches for Christ's Return....Whereby Scuttling the Above Passages along with another 8-10 that I didn't post. Either the above passages are True/Correct...... OR..... Mid/Post Trib Rapture is True. They are clearly Mutually Exclusive....BOTH can't be TRUE. The reason why I did not expound on this issue is due to any further explanation would be adding to scripture. I try my best to follow the idea as to when scripture is silent, so should I be. Scripture tells us we will be caught up at the last trump. I leave it there. Nobody can prove one way or another when this will happen. All anyone can do is assume this or that, and we all know what assuming can do, lead people astray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoch2021 Posted November 1, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,396 Content Per Day: 0.90 Reputation: 730 Days Won: 4 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/26/1963 Share Posted November 1, 2014 We read that the rapture will be at the last trump. Saying that, we don't know when the last trump will sound. Hey OneLight, it's been a while. Well the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. As a matter of Fact, the absence of evidence in this particular case is the Compelling Factor in the Matter.... If "The Rapture" was Mid/Post Great Tribulation, and given the excruciating detail in the Book Of Revelation...it should be there. Alas, it is not; Ergo, it must be Before. Lack of evidence is not proof that the contrary is true. However, if evidence can reasonably be expected to be found, then lack of evidence is evidence to the contrary. The silence on these 3 proofs alone settle the matter, quite abruptly IMHO... 1. How is "The Bride/The Wife/The Church/Born Again Christians" @ The Marriage Supper in Heaven then accompanying HIM on HIS Return (Second Coming) while still being on the Earth during the Great Tribulation?? 2. Any other position than the Pre-Trib position has "The Church"/Born Again Christians going through the Great Tribulation.... Well 98% of "The Church"/Born Again Christians are DEAD (From Pentecost until now or when it's time). So for "The Church" to go through the "Great Tribulation" on the Earth, They would have to be RESURRECTED and Walking around on the Earth so as to go through The Great Tribulation. So unless you can show this scenario in Scripture, welcome to Pre-Trib. 3. (Matthew 24:36) " But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." (Mark 13:32) " But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." (Luke 12:40) " Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not." (2 Peter 3:10) "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." If any "Christians" that have read Daniel Chapter 9:27 (Every "Christian" {other than newly converted} that I ever met is somewhat to Overtly aware of it) Observe or Hear of the Abomination of Desolation....They can more or less Mark their Calendars and Set Their Watches for Christ's Return....Whereby Scuttling the Above Passages along with another 8-10 that I didn't post. Either the above passages are True/Correct...... OR..... Mid/Post Trib Rapture is True. They are clearly Mutually Exclusive....BOTH can't be TRUE. The reason why I did not expound on this issue is due to any further explanation would be adding to scripture. I try my best to follow the idea as to when scripture is silent, so should I be. Scripture tells us we will be caught up at the last trump. I leave it there. Nobody can prove one way or another when this will happen. All anyone can do is assume this or that, and we all know what assuming can do, lead people astray. ================================================================================= Well I didn't "add" anything to Scripture (for it's already there, albeit slightly hidden) and I assumed (quite reasonably): Pre, Mid, and Post Great Tribulation Rapture positions because those are the questions. In Fact, I compared Scripture with Scripture to ferret out the TRUTH. I used these as my mandate... (2 Timothy 2:15) "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." (1 Thessalonians 5:21) "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." Nobody can prove one way or another when this will happen. I just did. Now when you say "when" this will happen....if you're implying the exact "Time" as in Day/Month/Year; then no I can't (or anyone else for that matter), that's impossible. However, that's not the question. The question is "when" as in what "Period of Time" (Pre, Mid, Post Great Tribulation which are clearly delineated) this event needs to take place without Contradicting Scripture/Doctrine. SEE: the 3 Reasons above. 1. is The Second Coming, Rev 19 IN TOTO. 2. Is basic reasoning concerning where 98-99.5% of "The Church" currently is (Dead) and will be when the "Time" comes. 3. Is a Compare and Contrast with: (Matthew 24:36), (Mark 13:32), (Luke 12:40), (2 Peter 3:10) AND: "Time and Times, and a Dividing of Time": Dan 7:25, Dan 12:7, Rev 12:14; "1260 Days": Rev 11:3, Rev 12:6 ; "42 Months": Rev 11:2, Rev 13:5..... that marks the beginning and length of the "Great Tribulation". There are "ZERO" assumptions here. If you, or anyone else, can show where my error(s) is Specifically.... then Outstanding (One Less Thing), time for me to get back to work . If not, then these stay where they lay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted November 1, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.24 Reputation: 9,760 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted November 1, 2014 As I said before, I will keep it simple and just wait for the last trump. When this happens, we all can get together and discuss who was right and who was wrong, if it makes anyone feel better. Until then, I will do my best not to worry when it happens, but if I am ready or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted November 2, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 266 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,200 Content Per Day: 3.49 Reputation: 8,497 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Share Posted November 2, 2014 Hi ghtan, Glad to meet you in a near time zone. Sorry I wasn`t clear in my comment to you. I will try again. Now you said -`What I was trying to say, and I said it in an earlier post, is that if Revelation does not contain the rapture, then post-trib wins by default because other passages generally link the rapture with the second coming.` Why does God have to explain again the details of the rapture in Revelation. Each book of God`s unfolding is a revealing more of Christ & His purposes. Revelation is the consummation of all that has gone before & revealing to us, Christ in His glorified & exalted position on high. The Body of Christ has been promised that they will be on His throne, (Rev. 3: 21) & then we are shown in Rev. 4 & 5 this actually taking place & where they will be. `He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit with Me on My throne.` (Rev. 3: 21) `And around the throne were 24 thrones, & upon the thrones I saw 24 elders sitting, clothed in white garments, & golden crowns on their heads.` (Rev. 4: 4) The Body of Christ is shown throughout the great ceremony of the investiture of the Son of God with His inheritance, the earth & its kingdoms. They sing a new song - ie declaring together that Christ is worthy because of His great sacrifice. And they confirm that He has made them Kings & Priests to reign over the earth. `And Thou hast made us to be Kings & Priests to our God; & we shall reign over the earth.` (Rev. 5: 10) All the details in scripture come together clearly when we know what the purpose of Christ is for His Body. Endless discussions of pre/mid/post do not edify any one or lead us to know more of Christ, they only bring arguments & frustration. However when we start to look at the purpose of Christ for the Body, then we find God`s word opens up to us concerning His heart. And isn`t that what we really all desire - to know Christ more. I`m just talking to all of us there, ghtan, trying to encourage each to look further into God`s word & grow to maturity in Him. Blessings, Marilyn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghtan Posted November 2, 2014 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 422 Content Per Day: 0.12 Reputation: 216 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted November 2, 2014 Hi Marilyn, still not sure I understand you completely but let me take a stab at it. I agree that sometimes we may wonder whether a topic is worth discussing if it degenerates into unpleasantness. However, I think that if it is in the bible, then it is a valid topic for discussion and we cannot avoid it. We should just be more responsible in the way we do it. A parallel in the bible may be the practice of speaking in tongues in Corinth. It was obviously a divisive issue there yet Paul did not tell them to stop speaking in tongues, only to do it in an orderly fashion. Of course, it does not mean everyone should be interested in talking about the rapture, just like not everyone is interested in speaking in tongues. There is no right or wrong in this. It is the other part of your reply that I am still confused over, i.e. the relationship of Rev 3:21 and 4:4 to the rapture. If you are suggesting that the 24 elders represent the raptured church in heaven, then I respectfully disagree. Simply because nothing in the text implies it. Instead, that they are called elders suggests they are the spirits of prominent servants of God - perhaps Noah, Moses, Elijah, etc.. - from the past. Maybe including some of the apostles, all of whom except John had been martyred by then. But it would be somewhat anachronistic for the raptured end time church to be speaking to its first century apostle, e.g. in 5:5. I doubt that I have addressed all the points that you made, but I hope at least some of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted November 2, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 596 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,088 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,829 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted November 2, 2014 why do we think that the 24 elders are/were human? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Persuaded Posted November 2, 2014 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 249 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 107 Days Won: 2 Joined: 06/29/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted November 2, 2014 Angels aren't redeemed (5:10, and yes it's 'us' and 'we'! 'Them' and 'you' is one of Westcott/Hort's mutilations of scripture) Side note: the angels always "say"; only humans "sing". Music seems to be a form of worship reserved for us. -which I ruefully notice, being somewhat musically challenged myself... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoch2021 Posted November 2, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,396 Content Per Day: 0.90 Reputation: 730 Days Won: 4 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/26/1963 Share Posted November 2, 2014 If you are suggesting that the 24 elders represent the raptured church in heaven, then I respectfully disagree. Simply because nothing in the text implies it. Instead, that they are called elders suggests they are the spirits of prominent servants of God - perhaps Noah, Moses, Elijah, etc.. - from the past. Maybe including some of the apostles, all of whom except John had been martyred by then. But it would be somewhat anachronistic for the raptured end time church to be speaking to its first century apostle, e.g. in 5:5. =============================================================================================== If you are suggesting that the 24 elders represent the raptured church in heaven, then I respectfully disagree. Simply because nothing in the text implies it. You disagree because nothing in the text "implies" it? How about if it "overtly" says it.... The Identity of the 24 Elders: The 24 Elders are Representatives of The Church. And if that's the Case (and it is as I will show below ), then The Rapture is well before The Great Tribulation because they are in Heaven when John Arrives in Chapter 4. Lets Identify these 24 Elders, First: - Identified as the Redeemed (Rev 5: 9,10) - only three are Identified in all of Scripture as Kings and Priests (Melchizedek, Jesus, and the Redeemed......US ) - They worship the Lamb before he receives the Scroll; in fact, they are already in Heaven when John arrives. Bear in mind, The Royal Line (Judah) and The Priesthood (Levites) were to be kept separate as noted throughout the OT. The Church appears to have no such restriction.... A Closer Look: Peter says: (1 Peter 2:9) "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:" Royal Priesthood: Kings and Priests John in Revelation says: (Revelation 1:5-6) "And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, {6} And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen." John is including himself in this group of Kings and Priests with "us". Who else is John including in the "us"?? The ones that are washed from our sins in HIS Blood....."The Church" (Born Again Christians). Hmmm, any more clues? (Revelation 5:8-10) "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. {9} And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; {10} And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth." The 24 Elders Sang a New Song: Song of The Redeemed. Hast Redeemed "us"....How? By The Blood. From where? Out of every kindred, tongue, people, and nation = "The Church" Has made "us" what?: Kings and Priests. The 24 Elders are Kings and Priests and have been redeemed by the blood out of every kindred, tongue, kindred, and nation. Who is that describing......"Born Again Christians/"The Church". Who the 24 Elders Can't Be, (Characteristics): Tribulation Saints: 24 Elders: * Not Crowned *Crowned, casts them on the Glassy Sea (Rev 4:10) * Palms in Hands *Harps, No Palms *Saved "out of" Great Tribulation * Kept "out of" Great Tribulation (Rev 3:10) * Stand Before Thrones * Sit on Thrones (Rev 4:4) * Serve HIM Night and Day * Reign as Kings and Priests (1 Cor 6:2-3, Rev 5:10) Tribulation Saints were not recognized by John and he asked who they were (Rev 7:14). Who answered? One of the Elders. John never asks who the 24 Elders are..... Why should he, he knows who they are Can't be The Martyrs because they are "under" The Altar and were slain. 24 Elders Sit on Thrones, not "slain". Can't be Angels.... (Revelation 7:11) "And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God," All the Angels stood round about the Throne...and who else? The 24 Elders. Clear Distinction. We are running out of contenders @ Light Speed. Can't be the 144,000, Obviously. **Also, if you compare Ezekiel's, Isaiah's, Daniel's vision of the Throne Room of GOD to John's Vision in Revelation, what's the ONLY Difference? Only in John's description do you find the 24 Elders!! "The Church" wasn't born until Pentecost, so the 24 Elders wouldn't be in Ezekiel's/Isaiah's/Daniel's visions. Are you still of the opinion the text doesn't "Imply" it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Last Daze Posted November 2, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,011 Content Per Day: 1.12 Reputation: 2,519 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted November 2, 2014 If you are suggesting that the 24 elders represent the raptured church in heaven, then I respectfully disagree. Simply because nothing in the text implies it. Instead, that they are called elders suggests they are the spirits of prominent servants of God - perhaps Noah, Moses, Elijah, etc.. - from the past. Maybe including some of the apostles, all of whom except John had been martyred by then. But it would be somewhat anachronistic for the raptured end time church to be speaking to its first century apostle, e.g. in 5:5. =============================================================================================== If you are suggesting that the 24 elders represent the raptured church in heaven, then I respectfully disagree. Simply because nothing in the text implies it. You disagree because nothing in the text "implies" it? How about if it "overtly" says it.... The Identity of the 24 Elders: The 24 Elders are Representatives of The Church. And if that's the Case (and it is as I will show below ), then The Rapture is well before The Great Tribulation because they are in Heaven when John Arrives in Chapter 4. Lets Identify these 24 Elders, First: - Identified as the Redeemed (Rev 5: 9,10) - only three are Identified in all of Scripture as Kings and Priests (Melchizedek, Jesus, and the Redeemed......US ) - They worship the Lamb before he receives the Scroll; in fact, they are already in Heaven when John arrives. Bear in mind, The Royal Line (Judah) and The Priesthood (Levites) were to be kept separate as noted throughout the OT. The Church appears to have no such restriction.... A Closer Look: Peter says: (1 Peter 2:9) "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:" Royal Priesthood: Kings and Priests John in Revelation says: (Revelation 1:5-6) "And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, {6} And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen." John is including himself in this group of Kings and Priests with "us". Who else is John including in the "us"?? The ones that are washed from our sins in HIS Blood....."The Church" (Born Again Christians). Hmmm, any more clues? (Revelation 5:8-10) "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. {9} And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; {10} And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth." The 24 Elders Sang a New Song: Song of The Redeemed. Hast Redeemed "us"....How? By The Blood. From where? Out of every kindred, tongue, people, and nation = "The Church" Has made "us" what?: Kings and Priests. The 24 Elders are Kings and Priests and have been redeemed by the blood out of every kindred, tongue, kindred, and nation. Who is that describing......"Born Again Christians/"The Church". Who the 24 Elders Can't Be, (Characteristics): Tribulation Saints: 24 Elders: * Not Crowned *Crowned, casts them on the Glassy Sea (Rev 4:10) * Palms in Hands *Harps, No Palms *Saved "out of" Great Tribulation * Kept "out of" Great Tribulation (Rev 3:10) * Stand Before Thrones * Sit on Thrones (Rev 4:4) * Serve HIM Night and Day * Reign as Kings and Priests (1 Cor 6:2-3, Rev 5:10) Tribulation Saints were not recognized by John and he asked who they were (Rev 7:14). Who answered? One of the Elders. John never asks who the 24 Elders are..... Why should he, he knows who they are Can't be The Martyrs because they are "under" The Altar and were slain. 24 Elders Sit on Thrones, not "slain". Can't be Angels.... (Revelation 7:11) "And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God," All the Angels stood round about the Throne...and who else? The 24 Elders. Clear Distinction. We are running out of contenders @ Light Speed. Can't be the 144,000, Obviously. **Also, if you compare Ezekiel's, Isaiah's, Daniel's vision of the Throne Room of GOD to John's Vision in Revelation, what's the ONLY Difference? Only in John's description do you find the 24 Elders!! "The Church" wasn't born until Pentecost, so the 24 Elders wouldn't be in Ezekiel's/Isaiah's/Daniel's visions. Are you still of the opinion the text doesn't "Imply" it? I know I am. The passage that you say identifies them as redeemed does no such thing. Let's look at it: And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. “You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.” Revelation 5:9-10 If they were redeemed, wouldn't they have said something like "You have made us to be a kingdom....etc."? Nothing in that passage suggests that they are of the redeemed. In fact, if you look back in Revelation 4 you will see that the 24 elders are there along with 4 living creatures, the seven lamps (7 Spirits of God), and He who sits on the throne. The lamb is not there. The 4 creatures and 24 elders worship Him, who sits on the throne. Go to chapter 5, where its time to open the scroll, and the scene has changed. The lamb has appeared having seven horns and seven eyes (7 Spirits of God). The 4 creatures and 24 elders worship the Lamb singing a new song. Why? Because all authority in heaven and on earth had been given to Jesus. The 24 elders were there before the lamb was slain. They can't represent the raptured church. In using your "process of elimination" method to determine who the 24 elders are you are assuming that you know every possibility of who they could be. I, for one, sure wouldn't go that far. There is so much in the spirit realm that we are oblivious to. All we know of it is what God has revealed of it. The fact that 24 elders are mentioned in Revelation does not mean that they have to represent some previously know entity or group. I don't know who the 24 elders are but I'm confident they are not representative of the raptured church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted November 3, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 266 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,200 Content Per Day: 3.49 Reputation: 8,497 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Share Posted November 3, 2014 Excellent Enoch2021, You did a very good explanation of the 24 Elders. Now ghtan, You said regarding the 24 Elders - `Instead, that they are called elders suggests they are the spirits of prominent servants of God - perhaps Noah, Moses, Elijah, etc.. - from the past.` Had you considered what God`s word says regarding these people. `...you have come to....the general assembly....& to the spirits of righteous men made perfect.` (Heb. 12: 23)`...Enoch....Noah....Moses....all these died in faith without receiving the promises....looking for a city which has foundations whose architect & builder is God.` (Heb. 11: 5, 7, 23, 14, 10) These spirits of righteous men (& women) are waiting in the general assembly till the New Jerusalem comes down. They do not have their promises yet. Also they will not be kingpriests. Only the Body of Christ has been promised this. And Last Daze, You said regarding the 24 Elders - [quote]`In using your "process of elimination" method to determine who the 24 elders are you are assuming that you know every possibility of who they could be. I, for one, sure wouldn't go that far. There is so much in the spirit realm that we are oblivious to.` Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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