Remnantrob Posted October 15, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,029 Content Per Day: 0.15 Reputation: 261 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/25/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/23/1982 Share Posted October 15, 2016 1 hour ago, RobertS said: Yes. Well I guess thats my name now ridiculous rob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remnantrob Posted October 15, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,029 Content Per Day: 0.15 Reputation: 261 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/25/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/23/1982 Share Posted October 15, 2016 5 hours ago, Ezra said: God is not "a Word" but "THE Word". Big difference. As a matter of fact Christ appeared as "THE Angel of the LORD" to men in the Old Testament. Again there is a difference between "an angel of the LORD" and "the Angel of the LORD". This was the Word of God before He became Jesus. Wait a minute....did I read Correctly. Ezra actually agreed with me? Christ appeared as the angel of the Lord in the Old testament but it somehow doesn't make him an angel? I think you're starting to like me....lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Openly Curious Posted October 15, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,568 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 770 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted October 15, 2016 Remnantrob, The question of the thread was, "Is the voice of the Son of God, the voice of the Archangel"? Absolutely Not! MissMuffet clearly through the scriptures she brought to this old thread showed very clear and precisely that Jesus and angels are not the same thing. But you rejected those scriptures can't help you in that regard. I'll put it to you like this and then I'll leave it up to you. God can use any of his created beings as spokesman but the vessel used is not the voice of God in the literal sense, but instead you hear the voice of the spokesman being used. You do not actually physically hear what the sound of the voice of God really sounds like. But every one hears the intended message from God that he wanted to hear it through the spokesman's natural voice. Be it a donkey's voice, a preacher voice, a prophet's voice, an archangel voice be it Gabriel or Micheal, an evangelist's voice, a teacher's voice, or other angel's voices. All are only spokesman with their own natural created voices God gave each of them as a created being. And it is not the actual sound of the physical voice of God that he has as his own. God has many ambassadors in which he merely uses to speak his messages forth in this earth but still it is not the actual sound of God's own voice speaking but the ambassadors voices in which we hear that he is merely speaking through. One day we will all know what the actual voice of God sounds like in our own ears without him having to use messengers of any kind from his created beings. In scripture I believe in 1 John 3 it says we are the sons of God. But I know I do not possess God's own voice I only possess the voice I was given as a created being and that voice God can use if he so desires at any given time. But I remain lowly and humble at heart as my voice or angels voices couldn't do anything on it's own, even if God chooses to use it. It is God's power and we are not one and the same being. The voice of the Son of God (Jesus, the spoken word of God) is his own voice that was in the bossom of the Father (John 1) but the voice of the archangel is it's own given voice by God even though speaking on God's behalf. The archangel is only a created being. I have failed to see the point of your discussions in this old thread. But one day we will hear that powerful voice that can speak things into existence from nothing (the spoken Word of God Jesus from the beginning) for ourselves without the voices of spokesman being used. And HIS voice will not and does not belong to any of the created beings in which God created whether in the heavens or in the earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remnantrob Posted October 16, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,029 Content Per Day: 0.15 Reputation: 261 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/25/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/23/1982 Share Posted October 16, 2016 1 hour ago, Openly Curious said: Remnantrob, The question of the thread was, "Is the voice of the Son of God, the voice of the Archangel"? Absolutely Not! MissMuffet clearly through the scriptures she brought to this old thread showed very clear and precisely that Jesus and angels are not the same thing. But you rejected those scriptures can't help you in that regard. I'll put it to you like this and then I'll leave it up to you. God can use any of his created beings as spokesman but the vessel used is not the voice of God in the literal sense, but instead you hear the voice of the spokesman being used. You do not actually physically hear what the sound of the voice of God really sounds like. But every one hears the intended message from God that he wanted to hear it through the spokesman's natural voice. Be it a donkey's voice, a preacher voice, a prophet's voice, an archangel voice be it Gabriel or Micheal, an evangelist's voice, a teacher's voice, or other angel's voices. All are only spokesman with their own natural created voices God gave each of them as a created being. And it is not the actual sound of the physical voice of God that he has as his own. God has many ambassadors in which he merely uses to speak his messages forth in this earth but still it is not the actual sound of God's own voice speaking but the ambassadors voices in which we hear that he is merely speaking through. One day we will all know what the actual voice of God sounds like in our own ears without him having to use messengers of any kind from his created beings. In scripture I believe in 1 John 3 it says we are the sons of God. But I know I do not possess God's own voice I only possess the voice I was given as a created being and that voice God can use if he so desires at any given time. But I remain lowly and humble at heart as my voice or angels voices couldn't do anything on it's own, even if God chooses to use it. It is God's power and we are not one and the same being. The voice of the Son of God (Jesus, the spoken word of God) is his own voice that was in the bossom of the Father (John 1) but the voice of the archangel is it's own given voice by God even though speaking on God's behalf. The archangel is only a created being. I have failed to see the point of your discussions in this old thread. But one day we will hear that powerful voice that can speak things into existence from nothing (the spoken Word of God Jesus from the beginning) for ourselves without the voices of spokesman being used. And HIS voice will not and does not belong to any of the created beings in which God created whether in the heavens or in the earth. Hey Openly curious, I appreciate your response as I do everyone else's. The fact that an old thread is being rehashed doesn't take away from the validity or error of a particular topic. If so this forum would be useless because we have covered many of the most talked about topics in the bible several times over and people continue to do so. As a matter of fact 10 years ago when I first came to worthy I remember starting a thread with the same theme that I can't locate it otherwise I would have bumped it. I would disagree that Missmuffet "clearly" showed a distinction between the voices of the archangel Michael and the Voice of our Lord Jesus, though I do agree she showed a difference between angels and God. The problem is that I don't have an issue with God not being an actual angel. My point was to see if the reader could see instances in the bible where a being who look like an angel or was described as one was actually God. I saw that a few people saw it and my friend Ezra actually admitted to the theophany of THE angel of the Lord in the Old testament. Now if the reader would be honest that there are circumstances like that in the old testament (Moses burning bush,parents of sampson, Joshua etc) and that the fact that it happened did not reduce God to an angel(created being) then it's not far fetched that if there is evidence that show that the voice of the archangel and Jesus have the exact same function that it might just mean the two are one in the same. If the evidences in the second part of my attempt failed then I will just have to try another way of making the readers see that and if I fail then it's on me. But if the refutation is simply that I'm wrong because you've never read/studied it in scripture before or that it's not what the majority of Christianity preaches therefore it's wrong then I can't just say ok and walk away. There are a ton of topics that I have participated in that the majority of orthodox christianity disagrees with but they are biblical and that's what I stand by (the sabbath, soul sleep/mortality of the soul, eternal torture vs annihilation). We might have exhausted this topic but for the new members who haven't heard it this is their one opportunity to hear it. The bible is full of symbolism and this is evident in booms like Daniel and Revelation. If you can decipher a topic in other parts of the bible and it can be established (2 or 3 witnesses ) then it makes what was once hidden revealed. So someone might ask then what's the point of trying align the two voices if Michael is only mentioned a handfulof times in scripture. Well if Michael is Jesus then Daniel 12 starts to become more digestible in terms of how it relates to prophesy when Michael stands up. It might be easier to hide and avoid controversial topics but then there is no growth. Don't you feel edified when you're able to successfully present the bible in a way that it can defend itself against perceptions that are wrong? Of course I'm not admitting to being wrong on the topic but if I were and you demonstrated that in scriptures you helped lift the name of Jesus and saved someone from believing something false including possibly myself so why get upset when the truth can defend itself? I havent hidden that I'm an sda and I'm quite aware that christianity views us as a hairline away from other obvious cults (JWs, Mormons etc) but that's not for me to deal with. My fruits should show who I represent. I don't remember attacking anyone for not believing what I do on topics that I am passionate about like the sabbath and the law but if I have I apologize. I am just here as a witness for my faith and to help with my spiritual growth. Your responses actually help me go back and verify if what I say lines up with scripture. Our church does a lot of door to door outreach so we can easily be mistaken for JWs until we actually start with prayer and go through a bible study. It's not easy to get people to agree to one especially if you'rea stranger knocking on my door but there is always that one that I believe is appointed and worthy helps me become prepared for these moments because it could be a non believer, a clergyman, a Muslim anyone. I just realized that I already responded and I'm rambling so forgive me but I'm truly grateful for any and all responses. I'll see you in another thread soon I'm sure. God bless you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Openly Curious Posted October 16, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,568 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 770 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted October 16, 2016 11 minutes ago, Remnantrob said: Quote The fact that an old thread is being rehashed doesn't take away from the validity or error of a particular topic. I agree an old thread being rehashed doesn't take away it's validity. Neither does it take away the the error found within it no matter what the subject of the topic may be that is being rehashed. Quote I would disagree that Missmuffet "clearly" showed a distinction between the voices of the archangel Michael and the Voice of our Lord Jesus, though I do agree she showed a difference between angels and God. The scriptures in Hebrews 1 clearly show that in these last days we are living in that God is speaking unto us (mankind) directly through his Son Jesus Christ (the Word). God in the past or in OT times spoke unto the fathers by using the prophets as God would move upon them at different times and in different manners. You seem to see a distinction between angels and God but cannot seem to see a distinction between the voices of the two (God and angels) as being seperate. Which does not diminish the fact that God uses his angels as ministering spirits. Quote The problem is that I don't have an issue with God not being an actual angel. No, but you have issue with the nature of God which is not the nature of angels nor the nature of Adam. The angels bow down and worship God and cry holy, holy, holy using their own voices and not the voice of God. Quote My point was to see if the reader could see instances in the bible where a being who look like an angel or was described as one was actually God. There are all kinds of types and shadows and figures that are being used in the OT that are just that figures, types and shadows of things to come pointing us to Christ Jesus that would be born into the world through the virgin Mary His Father being God Himself. If in the OT scripture it is describing a being as an "angel" or looking "like an angel" then it is an angel and not God. Being a type, shadow or figure of Christ Jesus that was still yet to come. Quote Now if the reader would be honest that there are circumstances like that in the old testament (Moses burning bush,parents of sampson, Joshua etc) and that the fact that it happened did not reduce God to an angel(created being) then it's not far fetched that if there is evidence that show that the voice of the archangel and Jesus have the exact same function that it might just mean the two are one in the same. What evidence are you referring too that shows that the voice of an angel has the same function as Jesus? Absolutely Not Even One of the angels from the highest ranking to the lowest ranking angel that was created by God, "function" was to die for the sins of the world. No voice of any of the archangel found in the bible function was equal to that of Jesus that was to come. They are not one in the same nor have the same function. Even if you think they are in your personal thoughts it isn't true. No archangel's voice function was that of Christ Jesus our Lord whose soul purpose and function was to suffer the cross shedding his blood and giving his own body as the sacrifice for the sins of man. Show me in scripture where the archangel's function was to die for the sins of man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Robert Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 6 hours ago, Openly Curious said: Quote The fact that an old thread is being rehashed doesn't take away from the validity or error of a particular topic. I agree an old thread being rehashed doesn't take away it's validity. Neither does it take away the the error found within it no matter what the subject of the topic may be that is being rehashed. Quote I would disagree that Missmuffet "clearly" showed a distinction between the voices of the archangel Michael and the Voice of our Lord Jesus, though I do agree she showed a difference between angels and God. The scriptures in Hebrews 1 clearly show that in these last days we are living in that God is speaking unto us (mankind) directly through his Son Jesus Christ (the Word). God in the past or in OT times spoke unto the fathers by using the prophets as God would move upon them at different times and in different manners. You seem to see a distinction between angels and God but cannot seem to see a distinction between the voices of the two (God and angels) as being seperate. Which does not diminish the fact that God uses his angels as ministering spirits. Quote The problem is that I don't have an issue with God not being an actual angel. No, but you have issue with the nature of God which is not the nature of angels nor the nature of Adam. The angels bow down and worship God and cry holy, holy, holy using their own voices and not the voice of God. Quote My point was to see if the reader could see instances in the bible where a being who look like an angel or was described as one was actually God. There are all kinds of types and shadows and figures that are being used in the OT that are just that figures, types and shadows of things to come pointing us to Christ Jesus that would be born into the world through the virgin Mary His Father being God Himself. If in the OT scripture it is describing a being as an "angel" or looking "like an angel" then it is an angel and not God. Being a type, shadow or figure of Christ Jesus that was still yet to come. Quote Now if the reader would be honest that there are circumstances like that in the old testament (Moses burning bush,parents of sampson, Joshua etc) and that the fact that it happened did not reduce God to an angel(created being) then it's not far fetched that if there is evidence that show that the voice of the archangel and Jesus have the exact same function that it might just mean the two are one in the same. What evidence are you referring too that shows that the voice of an angel has the same function as Jesus? Absolutely Not Even One of the angels from the highest ranking to the lowest ranking angel that was created by God, "function" was to die for the sins of the world. No voice of any of the archangel found in the bible function was equal to that of Jesus that was to come. They are not one in the same nor have the same function. Even if you think they are in your personal thoughts it isn't true. No archangel's voice function was that of Christ Jesus our Lord whose soul purpose and function was to suffer the cross shedding his blood and giving his own body as the sacrifice for the sins of man. Show me in scripture where the archangel's function was to die for the sins of man. Well said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remnantrob Posted October 16, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,029 Content Per Day: 0.15 Reputation: 261 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/25/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/23/1982 Share Posted October 16, 2016 9 hours ago, Openly Curious said: The scriptures in Hebrews 1 clearly show that in these last days we are living in that God is speaking unto us (mankind) directly through his Son Jesus Christ (the Word). God in the past or in OT times spoke unto the fathers by using the prophets as God would move upon them at different times and in different manners. You seem to see a distinction between angels and God but cannot seem to see a distinction between the voices of the two (God and angels) as being seperate. Which does not diminish the fact that God uses his angels as ministering spirits. I have no issues with Hebrews. I'm not claiming that Michael is literally going around today revealing himself to us. What I am dealing with is the 3 or 4 text mentioning him in scripture and what his function is. The fact that I am making an equivalency with the voice of the Son of God and the voice of Michael does not take away from Jesus Christ being God unless you are interpreting my words as such and for that I will apologize. 9 hours ago, Openly Curious said: No, but you have issue with the nature of God which is not the nature of angels nor the nature of Adam. The angels bow down and worship God and cry holy, holy, holy using their own voices and not the voice of God. That is an assumption on your part. I never said they shared the same nature. What I did say was that Michael (the arch angel) is Jesus. I mean Paul compares himself with being received as an angel but I'm not going around saying that is proof that humans and angels share the same nature. What I am saying is that it may be that Michael is a role that Christ puts on for a specific purpose. 2 hours ago, RobertS said: There are all kinds of types and shadows and figures that are being used in the OT that are just that figures, types and shadows of things to come pointing us to Christ Jesus that would be born into the world through the virgin Mary His Father being God Himself. If in the OT scripture it is describing a being as an "angel" or looking "like an angel" then it is an angel and not God. Being a type, shadow or figure of Christ Jesus that was still yet to come. But I never made reference to any types or shadows. I made reference to actual figures/"angels" in the OT that were not just pointing to God they were God. 2 hours ago, RobertS said: What evidence are you referring too that shows that the voice of an angel has the same function as Jesus? Absolutely Not Even One of the angels from the highest ranking to the lowest ranking angel that was created by God, "function" was to die for the sins of the world. No voice of any of the archangel found in the bible function was equal to that of Jesus that was to come. They are not one in the same nor have the same function. Even if you think they are in your personal thoughts it isn't true. No archangel's voice function was that of Christ Jesus our Lord whose soul purpose and function was to suffer the cross shedding his blood and giving his own body as the sacrifice for the sins of man. Show me in scripture where the archangel's function was to die for the sins of man. You may have just skimmed over it, but 1 Thess. 4:16 says: Quote For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then I mentioned John 5:25-29 Quote Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. Then I mentioned several "figures" in the OT that did things such as accept worship which only God can do(Revelation 22:9) The figure that sticks out the most right now is Joshua 5:13-15 Quote 13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries? 14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the Lord am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant? 15 And the captain of the Lord's host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so. Now are you going to tell me that it was ok the worship angels in the old testament but not in the new? That person in the book of Joshua who accepted worship was Jesus....at least most commentaries that i have read say so or imply it. I'm not saying God created an angel to die for the sins of man so you don't have to repeat it. What I'm saying is that Michael is Jesus but for a purpose and not as a creation. In Joshua the captain of the host of the Lord came with sword saying to me he was ready for war. Jesus is also our high priest but I wouldn't expect him to come out to battle with his priestly garments on. Lastly I don't think the sole purpose of Christ coming to the earth as man was " to suffer the cross shedding his blood and giving his own body as the sacrifice for the sins of man. " John 17:25,26 Quote 25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. 26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them. Part of Christ's mission was to reveal the true character of the father that the Jewish nation had misrepresented as exacting, cruel, and seemingly bloodthirsty. He showed that the father is love and he cares for all and wants everyone to be saved from their sins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Openly Curious Posted October 17, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,568 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 770 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted October 17, 2016 13 hours ago, Remnantrob said: Quote What I did say was that Michael (the arch angel) is Jesus. What I am saying is that it may be that Michael is a role that Christ puts on for a specific purpose. But I never made reference to any types or shadows. I made reference to actual figures/"angels" in the OT that were not just pointing to God they were God. Jesus is NOT an angel in which you "are" believing and teaching that is a wrong assumption on your part. Michael is an actual angel and Jesus is the Son of the living God. Jesus and Micheal do not have the same role or purpose. Perhaps you skimmed over Hebrews 1 concerning Jesus and the angels vs. 5)...For unto which of the "angels" said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son...6) And again when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let the angels of God worship him...7) And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire...8) But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom...........13) But to which of the angels saith he at any time, Sit on my right hand until I make thine enemies thy footstool?...14) Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation? Scripture plainly and forthrightly tells us that God never told any of the angels (including Michael) -that they were his Son-that they were begotten of the Father-that Father God would be a Father to them-or that the angels would be a Son to the Father. But God told the angels whenever he brought his Son Jesus into this world that they were to worship him. God also told the angels that he made them spirits his ministers. But God told Jesus that his throne was to be for ever and ever. But God never told any of his angels not even Michael to Sit on his right hand until he made his enemies his footstool. But he instead told the angels they "ALL" were ministering spirit who were being sent forth to minister to those who would be heirs of salvation. And that is the God given role that has been given to the angels even Michael the archangel is only a ministering spirit. Jesus and Michael are not one in the same as you claim. Michael is a ministering spirit and Jesus is the Son of God as they have different functions and purpose. Jesus is the only begotten Son of God their is no need to take on a role of an angel for he is King of kings and Lord of lords. Angels are not figures as you referenced them to be in the OT. There are however figures, types and shadows in the OT that are given to us. But angels are not figures of Christ as I have shown from Hebrews 1 but angels are spirits who minister to them who shall be the heirs of salvation. Quote I mentioned several "figures" in the OT that did things such as accept worship which only God can do(Revelation 22:9). The scripture in Rev 22:9 is not a picture of John worshiping the angel of God in the NT. The Revelation of Jesus Christ and the role he would play during the end time events that will be happening in the earth was being revealed or shown to John by an angel of the Lord who showed and made known to him all of the things he wrote down in Revelation that he was to send out to the seven churches in order that they would have this knowledge as Christ is not finished in this world yet. You can in Revelation 1:1-3 see what the role of this angel was in John's life. John wanted more than one time to worship the angel who was showing him and making known the meaning of the things he saw but the angel stopped him and told him not to worship him but to worship God. Because the angel was only a fellow servant of God just like John himself was a servant of God and for him to worship God instead (Revelation 19:10). In the scripture you gave you can see the exact same thing happening as was going on in Rev 19:10 but John never ever once worshiped an angel like you are claiming. Quote The figure that sticks out the most right now is Joshua 5:13-15 The captain of the host of the Lord in this passage was an angel who was captain of the army of God. Just as Joshua was the earthly captain of the army of the children of Israel. It was like the servant of Elisha or Elijah when God opened up his eyes he saw the army of God that was encompassed about them and they were more in the army of God than they was in the earthly armies that was surrounding them as God fought for them. Same thing going on in this passage Joshua was by Jericho and he happened to look up. When he did he saw a man over against him that had his sword drawn out in his hand. Joshua went over to this man and he asked him if he was for them (on their side) or was he on the enemies side. The man said he wasn't on their side nor was he their enemy. But the man began to reveal to Joshua just who he was and for the purpose in which he came as the captain of the army of God or his angels. When Joshua realized who this man actually was, an angel who just happened to be captain of the Lord's host (army of angels) whom God had sent to him letting him know the army of God's angels was with him. The walls of Jericho was about to be divinely pulled out from under the feet of the enemies of the children of Israel. The enemies of Israel was about to face the children of God eyeball to eyeball as that protecting wall that was surrounding them was about to be divinely jerked out from among them by the Lord's host as it was soon to fall. However the scripture never says Joshua worshiped the angel (captain of the Lord's host). But it says after he finds out who the man is in verse 14....And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant. It says Joshua falls on his face to the ground and did worship then afterward he says to the angel or captain of the Lord's host What is it that his lord wanted to say to to him his servant. It never says once Joshua fell down and worships the captain of the Lord's host it just says after he finds out who the man really is he falls down and worships. But it is very clear that Joshua did not view the captain of the host as God but he recognized him as a heavenly messenger sent to him by God or he would have never asked What was the message that God wanted to give to him. It is only your assumption that Joshua worshiped the angel or the captain of the Lord's host as it is not in the text. Quote Now are you going to tell me that it was ok the worship angels in the old testament but not in the new? That person in the book of Joshua who accepted worship was Jesus....at least most commentaries that I have read say so or imply it It is not okay to worship angels at anytime be it in past, present or future tense it is a no, no forbidden by God. I'd like to see this in the commentaries, which one do you find it in either directly or implying it? Quote What I'm saying is that Michael is Jesus but for a purpose and not as a creation. In Joshua the captain of the host of the Lord came with sword saying to me he was ready for war. Micheal is not Jesus and Joshua was not the captain of the host of the Lord who came with sword saying he was ready for war. That was not the message Joshua got from the Lord through the angelic messenger being the captain of the Lord's host. But Joshua was told by the messenger to take off his shoes for the place where he was standing was holy ground.....and not that he was ready for war. Quote Jesus is also our high priest but I wouldn't expect him to come out to battle with his priestly garments on. The natural (carnal) mind is a enemy toward God as the natural mind understandeth not the things of the Spirit. I am most curious what garments you would expect Jesus to come out to battle in. Quote Lastly I don't think the sole purpose of Christ coming to the earth as man was "to suffer the cross shedding his blood and giving his own body as the sacrifice for the sins of man." John 17:25,26 The scripture you are referring to is part of a prayer that Jesus prayed for the church or those who would come to believe on him through the witness of other believers after he was gone from this earth. The 17th chapter is also dealing with how the Father had been glorified and seen in the life of Jesus his Son by the works God did through him. Both were one as one was not without the other. Jesus wants to be glorified and seen in our personal life in the same manner that the Father was seen living in his he want us to be one with him as he was one with the Father. Our fruit needs to be unto righteousness and not fruit unto death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remnantrob Posted October 17, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,029 Content Per Day: 0.15 Reputation: 261 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/25/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/23/1982 Share Posted October 17, 2016 7 hours ago, Openly Curious said: The scripture in Rev 22:9 is not a picture of John worshiping the angel of God in the NT. The Revelation of Jesus Christ and the role he would play during the end time events that will be happening in the earth was being revealed or shown to John by an angel of the Lord who showed and made known to him all of the things he wrote down in Revelation that he was to send out to the seven churches in order that they would have this knowledge as Christ is not finished in this world yet. You can in Revelation 1:1-3 see what the role of this angel was in John's life. John wanted more than one time to worship the angel who was showing him and making known the meaning of the things he saw but the angel stopped him and told him not to worship him but to worship God. Because the angel was only a fellow servant of God just like John himself was a servant of God and for him to worship God instead (Revelation 19:10). In the scripture you gave you can see the exact same thing happening as was going on in Rev 19:10 but John never ever once worshiped an angel like you are claiming. If there is one thing I give you credit for Openly Curious it's persistance...lol I like it. Anyway, I apologize for not completely getting this one right. You stated the scripture that I gave John never once worshiped an angel like I was claiming...but if you go up one verse before to verse 8 of the same chapter is says clearly: And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. Please tell me that this verse is actually in line with what I was saying about vs 9? 7 hours ago, Openly Curious said: The captain of the host of the Lord in this passage was an angel who was captain of the army of God. Just as Joshua was the earthly captain of the army of the children of Israel. It was like the servant of Elisha or Elijah when God opened up his eyes he saw the army of God that was encompassed about them and they were more in the army of God than they was in the earthly armies that was surrounding them as God fought for them. Same thing going on in this passage Joshua was by Jericho and he happened to look up. When he did he saw a man over against him that had his sword drawn out in his hand. Joshua went over to this man and he asked him if he was for them (on their side) or was he on the enemies side. The man said he wasn't on their side nor was he their enemy. But the man began to reveal to Joshua just who he was and for the purpose in which he came as the captain of the army of God or his angels. When Joshua realized who this man actually was, an angel who just happened to be captain of the Lord's host (army of angels) whom God had sent to him letting him know the army of God's angels was with him. The walls of Jericho was about to be divinely pulled out from under the feet of the enemies of the children of Israel. The enemies of Israel was about to face the children of God eyeball to eyeball as that protecting wall that was surrounding them was about to be divinely jerked out from among them by the Lord's host as it was soon to fall. However the scripture never says Joshua worshiped the angel (captain of the Lord's host). But it says after he finds out who the man is in verse 14....And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant. It says Joshua falls on his face to the ground and did worship then afterward he says to the angel or captain of the Lord's host What is it that his lord wanted to say to to him his servant. It never says once Joshua fell down and worships the captain of the Lord's host it just says after he finds out who the man really is he falls down and worships. But it is very clear that Joshua did not view the captain of the host as God but he recognized him as a heavenly messenger sent to him by God or he would have never asked What was the message that God wanted to give to him. It is only your assumption that Joshua worshiped the angel or the captain of the Lord's host as it is not in the text. Now this is some gymnastics on your part. The NIV, ESV, NLT, RSV and others clearly have Joshua bowing down and worshiping the captain of the Lord of host. Quote RSV 14 And he said, “No; but as commander of the army of theLord I have now come.” And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and worshiped, and said to him, “What does my lord bid his servant?” 15 And the commander of the Lord’s army said to Joshua, “Put off your shoes from your feet; for the place where you stand is holy.” And Joshua did so. NLT 13 When Joshua was near the town of Jericho, he looked up and saw a man standing in front of him with sword in hand. Joshua went up to him and demanded, “Are you friend or foe?” 14 “Neither one,” he replied. “I am the commander of the Lord’s army.” At this, Joshua fell with his face to the ground in reverence. “I am at your command,” Joshua said. “What do you want your servant to do?” 15 The commander of the Lord’s army replied, “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy.” And Joshua did as he was told. NIV 13 Now when Joshua was near Jericho, he looked up and saw a manstanding in front of him with a drawn sword in his hand. Joshua went up to him and asked, “Are you for us or for our enemies?” 14 “Neither,” he replied, “but as commander of the army of the Lord I have now come.” Then Joshua fell facedown to the ground in reverence, and asked him, “What message does my Lord[e] have for his servant?” 15 The commander of the Lord’s army replied, “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy.” And Joshua did so. ESV 3 When Joshua was by Jericho, he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, a man was standing before him with his drawn sword in his hand. And Joshua went to him and said to him, “Are you for us, or for our adversaries?” 14 And he said, “No; but I am the commander of the army of the Lord. Now I have come.” And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped[c] and said to him, “What does my lord say to his servant?” 15 And the commander of the Lord's army said to Joshua,“Take off your sandals from your feet, for the place where you are standing is holy.” And Joshua did so. 8 hours ago, Openly Curious said: I'd like to see this in the commentaries, which one do you find it in either directly or implying it? Matthew Henry Commentary: Quote 5:13-15 We read not of any appearance of God's glory to Joshua till now. There appeared to him one as a man to be noticed. This Man was the Son of God, the eternal Word. Joshua gave him Divine honours: he received them, which a created angel would not have done, and he is called Jehovah, chap. 6:2. To Abraham he appeared as a traveller; to Joshua as a man of war. Christ will be to his people what their faith needs. Christ had his sword drawn, which encouraged Joshua to carry on the war with vigour. Christ's sword drawn in his hand, denotes how ready he is for the defence and salvation of his people. His sword turns every way. Joshua will know whether he is a friend or a foe. The cause between the Israelites and Canaanites, between Christ and Beelzebub, will not admit of any man's refusing to take one part or the other, as he may do in worldly contests. Joshua's inquiry shows an earnest desire to know the will of Christ, and a cheerful readiness and resolution to do it. All true Christians must fight under Christ's banner, and they will conquer by his presence and assistance. MacLaren's Exposition: Quote So the Lord of the universe and its ordered ranks is Jesus Christ. That is the truth which was flashed from the unknown, like a vanishing meteor in the midnight, before the face of Joshua, and which stands like the noonday sun, unsetting and irradiating for us who live under the Gospel. Jamieson Fausset Brown bible commentary Quote 14. the host of the Lord—either the Israelitish people (Ex 7:4; 12:41; Isa 55:4), or the angels (Ps 148:2), or both included, and the Captain of it was the angel of the covenant, whose visible manifestations were varied according to the occasion. His attitude of equipment betokened his approval of, and interest in, the war of invasion. Joshua fell on his face …, and did worship—The adoption by Joshua of this absolute form of prostration demonstrates the sentiments of profound reverence with which the language and majestic bearing of the stranger inspired him. The real character of this personage was disclosed by His accepting the homage of worship (compare Ac 10:25, 26; Re 19:10), and still further in the command, "Loose thy shoe from off thy foot" (Ex 3:5). Michael Poole's commentary(I'm biased towards this one) Quote He said, Nay, I am neither Israelite nor Canaanite. Captain of the host of the Lord; either, 1. Of all creatures in heaven and earth, which are God’s hosts. Or, 2. Of the angels, who are called the host of heaven, 1 Kings 22:19 2 Chronicles 18:18 Luke 2:13. Or, 3. Of the host or people of Israel, which are called the Lord’s host, Exodus 12:41. The sense is, I am the chief Captain of this people, and will conduct and assist thee and them in this great undertaking. Now this person is none other than Michael the Prince, Daniel 10:2112:1; not a created angel, but the Son of God, who went along with the Israelites in this expedition, 1 Corinthians 10:4; not surely as an underling, but as their Chief and Captain. And this appears, 1. By his acceptance of adoration here, which a created angel durst not admit of,Revelation 22:8,9. 2. Because the place was made holy by his presence, Exodus 3:15, which was God’s prerogative, Exodus 3:5. 3. Because he is called the Lord, Heb. Jehovah, Joshua 6:2. What saith my lord unto his servant? I acknowledge thee for my Lord and Captain, and therefore wait for thy commands, which I am ready to obey. Geneva Study Bible Quote And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and {g} did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant? (g) In that Joshua worships him, he acknowledges him to be God: and in that he calls himself the Lord's captain he declares himself to be Christ. Hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remnantrob Posted October 18, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,029 Content Per Day: 0.15 Reputation: 261 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/25/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/23/1982 Share Posted October 18, 2016 Another interesting note at least on the angel of the Lord subject is how similar the speech is to that of Jesus Christ. The key text I'm going to base this off of is Job 33:14 which says: Quote 14 For God speaketh once, yea twice, yet man perceiveth it not. In Luke 10 beginning at verse 38 the story shows two sister Mary and Martha in the process of preparing to serve Jesus and his guests. Unfortunately for Martha, she is bombarded with all of the work of preparing and her sister is at the feet of Jesus taking in every word. Frustrated Martha goes to complain to Jesus about her sister not helping out and look at Jesus' response in verse 41: Quote And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things: Earlier in the book of Matthew 7:21-22 Jesus said: Quote 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Later in Matthew 23:37 he says: Quote 37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! When referring to Peter in Luke 22:31 he says: Quote 31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: Fast forward to a scene at the cross in Matthew 27:46 you see Jesus says: Quote 6 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? We can all attest to the many verily , verily texts or truly, truly texts so lets jump to the book of Acts where Jesus reveals himself to a persecutor of Israel in his journey to Damascus. Acts 9:3-5 Quote 3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: 4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. To sum up this first portion it seems safe to say that Jesus likes to repeat himself so that you can become familiar with who he is(repetition breeds familiarity) Martha, Martha, Simon, Simon, Jerusalem, Jerusalem, Saul, Saul etc. Let's see if that type of speech is repeated in the Old Testament by anyone. 1 Samuel 3 has a boy named Samuel who was a miracle child who was born to a barren mother. She prayed and promised to return him to the Lord for the rest of his life. God grants the desire of her heart and Samuel is born and when he is old enough he stays with Eli the priest and it's interesting to note that at the end of vs 1 is says : Quote word of the Lord was precious in those days; there was no open vision but then God calls out to Samuel and Samuel mistakes his voice for the of Eli and we all pretty much know how that part of the story ends. But notice the way that God calls him in vs 10 Quote 10 And the Lord came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth. Jump back to the story of the forefather of the Jewish nation Abraham and notice the character "the angel of the Lord" speaking to Abraham while he is about to sacrifice Isaac in Genesis 22:11 Quote 11 And the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. and finally one of the most famous figures in the bible Moses when at the bush that was burning but would not consume, the Lord spoke to him in Exodus 3:4 saying Quote 4 And when the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I. in verse 14 here is God's answer to Moses' question of his name: Quote 14 And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you. Sounds pretty similar to a new testament figure named Jesus huh? John 8:58 Quote 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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