I get it, somethings are not easy to swallow

[JohnD]

Shiloh said:

 

No.   He is saying that not ethnic Israelites are the true Israel. Not all of Jacobs descendents are members of the true nation of Israel, which is comprised of Jewish believers.

 

JohnDB says:

 

Romans 9:1-6 (NASB95)
1 I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit,
2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart.
3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,
4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,
5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;

 

You answer does not even make sense, Shiloh.

[JohnD]

JohnDB said:

 

Why did the Apostle not say they are not all believers or obedient who are descended from Israel?

 

Shiloh said:

 

That is what he is saying. Paul is defining the true Israel as the obedient, believing remnant of Jews who obeyed the Gospel and have come to Christ.  That is the true Israel.

 

JohnDB says:

 

On this we agree.

 

And by believing in the Jewish Messiah all people become True Israel. If the wall between Jew and Gentile is broken down by the Prince of Peace (Ephesians 2:11-22) and there is no distinction between Jew Gentile male female bond or free in Messiah (Galatians 3:28) which the Apostle Paul calls the Israel of God (Galatians 6:16). 

 

Paul defines what distinguishes not-Israel from True Israel:

 

Romans 2:28-29 (NASB95)
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

 

A distinction that goes back at least as far as:

 

Deuteronomy 10:16 (NASB95)
16 “So circumcise your heart, and stiffen your neck no longer.

 

This is not randomly strewn texts but a spiritually consistent thread throughout the Bible. 

[kwikphilly]

 

After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!                                                                                         Romans 11:17

By nature,by birth there are the True Israelites......this we know............we can be grafted in but we still cannot be a Jew......but that is not what our Lord wants us to be anyway because He does not make a distinction under the Blood of Jesus,,,,,,,,,

    Paul is speaking about Gods remnant,as Shiloh is so patiently trying to explain,over & over & over .........one cannot take verses out od context to make them suit false doctrine,,,,,,,,,,,it just doesn't work that way,To God be the Glory for a teachable spirit

                                                                                                         With love-in Christ,Kwik

[Guest shiloh357]

And by believing in the Jewish Messiah all people become True Israel.

 

Wrong.  The Bible does not say that. 

 

 

If the wall between Jew and Gentile is broken down by the Prince of Peace (Ephesians 2:11-22) and there is no distinction between Jew Gentile male female bond or free in Messiah (Galatians 3:28) which the Apostle Paul calls the Israel of God (Galatians 6:16).

 

No, that is not the conclusion we should draw fro what Paul is saying.  Paul is saying that Gentiles have equal access with the Jews to the covenantal blessings God has promised to Israel.  That doesn't make Gentiles Israel.  It means that the Gentiles can participate in the blessings of redemption

 

And no that is not what Paul calls the Israel of God.  The Israel of God is ONLY ethnic Jewish believers.  That is the ONLY correct way to interpret it correctly,  Your position on that matter is 100% wrong.

 

Paul defines what distinguishes not-Israel from True Israel:

 

Romans 2:28-29 (NASB95)

28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.

29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

 

Once again, you are wrong.   He is not talking about what separates Israel from non Israel.   He was not even talking about Israel  He was telling Jews what it means to live as a real Jew.   Sorry, but i am not going to agree to your false teaching.

A

distinction that goes back at least as far as:

 

Deuteronomy 10:16 (NASB95)

16 “So circumcise your heart, and stiffen your neck no longer.

 

This is not randomly strewn texts but a spiritually consistent thread throughout the Bible. 

 

No, you are just randomly linking texts together.   You are ignoring contexts and forcing things on to the Bible that are not biblical. 

[Guest]

 

The

 

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

 

Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

 

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. Jeremiah 31:13-33

 

Jew

 

Sing, O daughter of Zion; shout, O Israel; be glad and rejoice with all the heart, O daughter of Jerusalem.

 

The LORD hath taken away thy judgments, he hath cast out thine enemy: the king of Israel, even the LORD, is in the midst of thee: thou shalt not see evil any more.

 

In that day it shall be said to Jerusalem, Fear thou not: and to Zion, Let not thine hands be slack.

 

The LORD thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing. Zephaniah 3:14-17

 

And His Horse

 

And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.

 

And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.

 

And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

 

And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. Zechariah 14:14-17

[JohnD]

Romans 2:28-29 (NASB95)
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

 

Deuteronomy 10:16 (NASB95)
16 “So circumcise your heart, and stiffen your neck no longer.

 

Randomly linking scriptures? Tsk tsk, Shiloh.

 

Desperate much?

 

You see here the only opposition offered is spurious arguments like those Shiloh offered to mask their Jewish pride.

 

And Gentiles do the same thing to mask their antisemitism.

 

The truth is still the truth. It's in the Bible. But few there are that find it / accept it.

 

Broad is the way to untruth...

[Guest shiloh357]

Romans 2:28-29 (NASB95)

28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.

29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

 

Deuteronomy 10:16 (NASB95)

16 “So circumcise your heart, and stiffen your neck no longer.

 

Randomly linking scriptures? Tsk tsk, Shiloh.

 

Desperate much?

 

You see here the only opposition offered is spurious arguments like those Shiloh offered to mask their Jewish pride.

 

And Gentiles do the same thing to mask their antisemitism.

 

The truth is still the truth. It's in the Bible. But few there are that find it / accept it.

 

Broad is the way to untruth...

Circumcision of the heart has nothing to do with salvation.  Circumcision of the heart simply refers to the cutting off of sin from our lives.  It is not a metaphor for salvation.   Circumcision of the heart has to do with sanctification of a follower of Christ.  It has nothing to do with Gentiles being Jews.     Your claims are not actually in the Bible.  You twist and pervert the Scriptures in order to support your false doctrines.

 

If you are a Gentile, you need to be satisfied with how God has made you to be and stop trying to claim for yourself what doesn't belong to you, like claiming you are spiritual Jew, or whatever.  Your views are not in the Bible and no genuine follower of Jesus should accept your teachings.

[Guest shiloh357]

This appears to be a continuation of something that was taking place in another thread, of course, I could be wrong.  I don't hold to the same view as Shiloh on this subject.  I believe the Bible teaches that there is one spiritual tree, and believers who are natural descendants of Jacob are included that accept Jesus as well as Gentile believers.  I believe the Bible teaches that believing Jews are true Israel, and believing Gentiles are adopted Jews.  Spiritually, gentiles become Jews through faith in Jesus, and natural descendants of Jacob who reject Christ are cut out of that spiritual tree, unless or until they come to faith in Jesus.  As such, gentile believers are spiritual Jews.  I don't care if Shiloh agrees or not, and I don't care if I am accused of misrepresenting scripture.  That is what the Bible teaches. 

 

 

Really?   So where does the Bible actually say that believing Gentiles are spiritual or adopted Jews???   I would love to see you produce that Scripture.   It's not that you are necessarily misrepresenting Scripture.  You are simply making things up that are not in the Bible.  That's just as bad.   You are attributing to to the Bible, something that isn't even there.

 

I think part of the problem is that people think that "Jew" is the Old Testament corollary to "Christian."  It is not.  "Jew" in the Bible, is never spritiualized.  Neither is the word "Israel."  Those words are never used in any way to refer to anyone other than ethnic Jews.   So to claim that it refers to believers being "adopted" Jews is to use the word "Jew" in a way that is inconsistent with how the Bible uses the term and to introduce a foreign, fleshly and false theological concept to the Bible that simply isn't a part of the biblical record.  

 

The Bible teaches that Gentile believers are grafted into the same olive tree, but to be consistent with Paul's metaphor, the wild olive branch is always a wild olive branch. The grafting in of a wild branch into the cultivated tree doesn't change the branch at all.  It doesn't become a cultivated branch.  It is a wild olive branch bearing the fruit of the natural tree.   

 

Gentiles are grafted into the Jewish olive tree, but they are still Gentiles, physically and spiritually.  It is not a sin to be a Gentile.    When we start making up nonsensical concepts like "Spiritual Jew" or "adopted Jew"   we completely screw up the metaphor that the Bible is trying to use.  Gentiles are grafted into the Jewish olive tree and they are able to participate in the covenant blessings of Israel, but they do so AS GENTILES.    They are not made into Jews, spiritually or otherwise.  If they are turned into "adopted Jews" or "spiritual Jews"  that completely destroys the metaphor.   The whole idea behind the metaphor is that Gentiles are allowed to participate in the covenant blessings without having to be Jews.  They are accepted as they are.  If God has to change them into Jews, it is tantamount to saying that being a Gentile is a sinful condition that one needs to be redeemed from in order to be acceptable to God.   That is just as bad as anti-semitism.   The beauty of the Gospel is that it is for Jew and Gentile.  It is not for Jews and Gentiles who have been turned into Jews in order to be accepted by God. 

 

The concept of a Gentile being an "adopted Jew,"  apart from the fact that it isn't even a biblical concept, is a theological train wreck and runs completely contrary to the entire book of Romans. 

[Guest]

Romans 9:6 (KJV)  Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

 

 

God

 

God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? Numbers 23:9

 

Bless

 

I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

 

Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. Romans 9:1-5

 

The Jew

 

For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. Philippians 3:3

 

My Beloved Brother

 

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

 

Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

 

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD,

 

I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. Jeremiah 31:31-33

 

Maranatha~!

 

And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

 

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications:

 

and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son,

 

and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

 

 

In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

 

And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart;

 

the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;

 

The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart;

 

the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;

 

All the families that remain, every family apart,

 

and their wives apart. Zechariah 12:9-14

[hmbld]

Gentiles become Jews when they accept Christ? I thought we became children of God, or Christians. If I adopted a Chinese child, would he cease to be Chinese? I understand we are grafted in. One would have to be born Jewish to be Jewish.