do you speak in tongues

[Tony Trout]

Tongues are un-Biblical? You have GOT to be *edited* me! As a person who recently re-dedicated himself to Christ and received the gift of tongues on the night of February 3, 2012, I (for one) believe that it IS Biblical.

I wish (now) that I had never, ever opened and read this thread because it's very discouraging......

Edited April 20, 2012 by Tony Trout

[nebula]

I wish that I had never, ever opened and read this thread because it's very discouraging......

It's easy for people to theologize what they have never lived.

[nebula]

Im not denying speaking in tongues at all. Babble is another story. Ive been using babble as ironic repetition. Do you see the irony? You need to have an understanding of tongues to see the irony which in itself is ironic and seals my contention. Im not an expert linguist but that doesnt mean I dont umderstand language. Wisdom is proved right by all of all her children.

Can you prove that such a one isn't actually saying a single word or phrase over and over again?

I've done that at times in English - i.e. "Bless the Lord!", "Peace!", "Thank-You, Jesus!", "Bless!" "More of Your glory", "Grace!", etc.

[nebula]

Every scripture used to "validate" "babble" as "speaking in tongues" is taken out of context. Its clear from the scripture that the words are unspeakable because its unlawful for the man to utter them NOT because theyre incoherent.

2 Corinthians 12:1"It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."

How ever did you come to equate this passage with the gift of tongues?

Acts proves my point that the tongues spoken are actual languages and 1 Corinthians 14:5 proves the tongues are interpretable by the speaker.

I Cor. 14:4 talks about speaking in tongues personally TO God without interpretation for self-edification. This is contrasted and denoted by the phrase 'BUT in the CHURCH' where tongues in corporate worship is for Body edification when INTERPRETED. One must read I Cor. 14 verse by verse to see the changing context and 3 points about tongues (self-edification, corporate edification with interpretation, sign for unbelievers in our midst). It is both/and, not either/or.

I agree, the phrase "but in the church" indicates the interpretation is needed for when speaking tongues to the congregation; it isn't referring to when you talk to God (pray).

I dont trust people who validate their claims stating "its the Holy Spirit and thats all there is to it you need a special relationship with God in order to understand....Dont try to shame me or frighten me with erroneous accusations as if you are in better standing with God than I and that I should be condemned if I ask for proof of the Holy Spirit in what you claim as "speaking in tongues"."

Well, it is the Holy Spirit, but one's relationship with God has nothing to do with having or utilizing the gift - other than actually having one to begin with.

If you go back and evaluate things, though, accusations have been thrown both ways. In a previous debate on tongues, someone actually stated point-blank they believed I had a demon. But even in this thread, we who exercise the gift of tongues have had derogatory comments thrown at us as well.

That said, I agree it is a poor defense to attack your relationship with God this way.

all while taking scripture out of context or reading into it whatever notion.

Well, we can debate back and forth as to who is taking Scripture out of context!

[Hawkins]

If you are ever brought to this state, you may have a clue about what I am talking about.

I don't like to assume. Have you been brought to that state? Will you share any of the details if it could possibly bring edification unto us?

Gary

It is a yes. I don't usually mention that coz I don't think it does any good anymore other than fulfilling one's curiosity. Briefly speaking, I was fully conscious under the witness of 4 doctors (they all knew and said so that I was fully conscious), but I was half in this reality and half in Hades. I wasn't a true Christian at that time, I didn't even read the Bible, I didn't know anything about what the Bible might have said, I didn't even know that man is triune. It was an NDE but never like any other NDE I had read afterward.

I was all the times lying in the be (you can't have a dream in your bed all the times, can you?), it's long long time that I thought normally a dead person should have thought about. As the NDE is totally unexpected even by the doctors, so I thought alot about why me and why me in this age, I thought a lot about my family, my wife and kid and how they would live without me. I even thought about how they would be able to claim the insurance as I purchased the insurance before marrying and the beneficiary was my sister instead of my wife, so I thought she might have a problem claiming the insurance. Anyway, this was not a dream to the best of my judgment. I tried to get out of my body but I couldn't (I later on conclude that the body is just like the cocoon while the soul like a worn trying to get off its cocoon). And I saw how my spirit flying out and it vibrated with a shape of a "flying dove", I couldn't find out a better description of its shape, and it's with a size similar to the lung. It vibrated (so resembles flying) right in front of me while I couldn't help but jumped up in a sitting position (my soul, not the body) and scared. And at the same time, I noticed that I was not alone, they all gave it a loud "wow" so I could hear them but I couldn't see them but the hospital room environment. I was in the sitting position more than once but it seemed that I couldn't keep myself in the position long enough, the body kept dragging me (my soul) back to the body (a cocoon and worn fight).

In that gloomy environment I remembered clearly what my last position was, as I sided my head to the left. And at the same exact position I woke up. I quickly noticed that different as I saw normal lighting (of a sunshine afternoon at around 3pm) instead of the gloomy environment. So I jumped up in the sitting position and this time it finally worked. I was truly in the sitting position this time. I heard people murmuring but I didn't pay any attention at first, as I assumed that other patients were there (actually it was odd as there were not many patient there to make the noise of a crowd, but I was just too busy to notice). I was busy thinking about what had been going on, hey I just returned from death. Gradually I noticed the odd, because I was somehow "addressed" to the chat. I started to notice that I wasn't totally "back" to the reality. So I had a chance to speculate how they talked. First I assumed that they were local folks (dead wicked souls) so I was not surprised that they all spoke in my native language (Cantonese). I speculate that they spoke in a special way that, when you are "addressed" to the chat, you'll hear a clear and much louder voice, other times you just hear the murmuring but without knowing what they are talking about (that's because you are not "invited" to the chat). When someone tries to speak to you with you "addressed", you should be able to hear a louder and clearer voice and all are carried out in your native tongue.

10 minutes after, I saw a cherub of some kind. At the same time all others (those chatting wicked souls) seemed gone. I never read that Bible so I didn't know how to describe it (it was later that I knew that it's a cherub of some kind). I perceived the fear it cast on me and I was deeply scared so I yelled "ghost, ghost". All the doctors and nurses came, the doctors started to test whether I was conscious so 4 of them questioned me in turn while the nurses were calling the hospital's pastor to tell him to come over. At the same time, I noticed that my body was still in a num, I couldn't feel my skin and muscle, the feeling is as odd as you are in a corpse not belong to you. I later on concluded that my soul wasn't combined well with my body yet, so it's half in body and it's half out of body and naturally my second half was in Hades (last time Paul was in the third heaven and heard strange chatting but God didn't allow him to talk about). Another thing puzzled me was that the cherub spoke some Cantonese which actually inspired me to make the conclusion about what "speak in tongue" might be.

The pastor was more than half an hour late so I had to face the cherub for around 40 minutes. And at that time what scared me was that what if it never leaves me in my life time, what if in my life time that I have to face this haunting cherub whenever my eyes are open, or even after I die? The doctors tried to move me to the ICU but the ICU was full so they moved me to another area nearer to the nurses' desk. By the time when I was moved to the new location and I looked up again, the cherub was gone. And it's like 10 seconds after the pastor arrived and said me a prayer.

The doctor's dialogue;

doctor 1 said, "It's truly strange that he's fully conscious". She said so after the questioning and a reliable visual test in which I had to read through a card with numbers and alphabets in various sizes, and I did all correctly and answered all questions perfectly (Actually I would like them to ask more complicated questions such as mathematical calculations but they didn't. Perhaps to them it's clear that I was fully normal).

doctor 2 said to doctor 3, "Don't say that you won't believe (supernatural things), when you are put to the same situation you probably will see the same thing".

while doctor 4 seemed scared, he didn't act as normal and calm as he should.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Hawkins

[Hawkins]

On the other hand, I believe that Paul's message is that "even when you are truly gifted, just leave it between you and God until it's useful to the Church".

Here are some characteristics of some unsound doctrines.

doctrine 1, universalism saying that everyone will finally be saved.

The behind the scene message is that "you don't need Jesus Christ", because you'll be saved anyway.

characteristics: in case universalism is wrong, you are caught to believe that "no Jesus is needed", at least Satan will accuse you of so, that you might not be able to be saved. That's the risk of universalism the unsound doctrine.

in this case, Christians who don't believe in such a doctrine are put to an extremely safe position. That is, if universalism is correct, they will be saved. If universalism is wrong, they will be saved too.

doctrine 2, saying no hell exists.

Again, the message behind this is that "no Jesus Christ is needed", as there's little to no consequences of sin, you die you just vaporize.

characteristics: same, in case people with this view are wrong (i.e. in case hell does exist), they are caught to believe that "no Jesus is needed", by Satan the accuser at least. And they might not be able to be saved. That's the risk.

Those Christians don't believe in such a view are put to the safest position, say, if hell doesn't exist they shall be saved. If hell does exist they shall be saved too.

doctrine 3, after believing in Jesus Christ we become perfect and sinless

The message behind this doctrine is that, "we no longer need to repent as we are already perfect".

characteristics: in case people with this view are wrong that they are not perfect but sinners, what they owe is repentance. And in accordance to the new covenant, without repentance one can't be saved. At least Satan the accuser will accuse so. That's the risk.

Those Christians don't hold this view are put to the best position, if they are truly perfect, they will be saved. If they are not perfect but sinners, they will be saved too.

Now let's get back to tongue,

People speak in gibberish while claim that the Holy spirit is behind all these. The same is "spirit slain", people lying on the floor scream and cry then claim that the Holy Spirit is behind all these.

The risk in this case is the unforgivable sin of offending the Holy Spirit. That is, if they are wrong, they are risking their life of such a sin. Satan the accuser will accuse so at least.

The Christians without holding this view are put to the best position. If the Holy Spirit is behind all these, they are saved. If the Holy Spirit is not behind all these, they are saved too.

Moreover, what do you expect Paul to say about it? In the first 3 cases the devil is behind the scene to drag souls away from God by introducing the false doctrines. Should Paul say that the 4 case is so too? No he won't, God won't allow him to be in such a position that if he's wrong that he'll be in the risk of offending the Holy Spirit. So if Paul said that "the Holy Spirit is NOT behind all these" but in case he's wrong, well he's in the risk of offending the Holy Spirit too.

So IMO, by God's will Paul would not and cannot rebuke but setting an example of how this situation should be dealt with. That is, you are asked to leave it between you and God. Don't over state it when the Church is not beneficial while you are lacking a witness (the interpreter). No one will be able to rebuke you, and no one should rebuke you when you claim that the Holy Spirit is behind something which few can discern.

The situation is very different in the case that an interpreter exists to translate your tongue. Because when your tongue can be translated it is beyond doubt that this is from the Holy Spirit, and at the same time you have a witness to say that you are truly speaking in tongue.

That's my 2 cents.

Edited April 21, 2012 by Hawkins

[Guest]

Tongues are un-Biblical? You have GOT to be *edited* me! As a person who recently re-dedicated himself to Christ and received the gift of tongues on the night of February 3, 2012, I (for one) believe that it IS Biblical.

I wish that I had never, ever opened and read this thread because it's very discouraging......

Don't let this sort of thing get to you. When it comes to things like tongues and other teaching there are differences of opinion . . . we are all different and we have different gifts, and we are all at different places in our walks with the Lord. We all know in part on this side of eternity -- Paul called it seeing through a glass (mirror) darkly . . . but one day we'll see Jesus and all this will be cleared up! So don't let it get to ya in the mean time.

In case you're wondering, I don't have the gift of tongues -- and that's the Lord's decision and I'm at peace with it.

[OneLight]

Has any one here ever heard of a book called "They Speak with Other Tongues" by John L Sherrill. It is interesting to say the least. The back of the book says...

"John Sherrill was a skeptic as far as miracles were concerned. Then the magazine he worked for sent him to investigate a biblical event that was cropping up across the country: the phenomenon of speaking in tongues. Before long he became a believer. As Sherrill relates the historical and biblical background of speaking in tongues, examines significant contemporary events, and shares his personal experience, he gives valuable insight into this gift of the Holy Spirit.

This classic has already inspired over two and a half-million readers worldwide. Now you, too, will be challenged and moved by the powerful story told in this book."

tongues is just another word for languages in the KJV Bible. I used to speak what you call tongues but then i stopped it when i found it to be unbiblical.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Doctrines/Speaking%20in%20Tongues/speaking_in_tongues.htm

what are you trying to achieve?

You statement leads me to ask if you believe the gifts from 1 Corinthian 12 are not for today?

[godrulz]

Has any one here ever heard of a book called "They Speak with Other Tongues" by John L Sherrill. It is interesting to say the least. The back of the book says...

"John Sherrill was a skeptic as far as miracles were concerned. Then the magazine he worked for sent him to investigate a biblical event that was cropping up across the country: the phenomenon of speaking in tongues. Before long he became a believer. As Sherrill relates the historical and biblical background of speaking in tongues, examines significant contemporary events, and shares his personal experience, he gives valuable insight into this gift of the Holy Spirit.

This classic has already inspired over two and a half-million readers worldwide. Now you, too, will be challenged and moved by the powerful story told in this book."

tongues is just another word for languages in the KJV Bible. I used to speak what you call tongues but then i stopped it when i found it to be unbiblical.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Doctrines/Speaking%20in%20Tongues/speaking_in_tongues.htm

what are you trying to achieve?

Words have a semantical range of meaning. It can refer to languages, but in the context of spiritual gifts, it is a supernatural endowment from the Holy Spirit for self and corporate edification, prayer, etc. Exegete the Bible instead of listening to anti-charismatic sites (the evolution of cessationism vs continuationism can be seen in Church history by guys like Calvin, etc. overreacting to Catholic issues, etc.).

Here is a scholarly source, unlike your link: http://www.amazon.com/Cessation-Charismata-Protestant-Post-biblical-Miracles-Revised/dp/0981952623

[Floatingaxe]

Tongues are un-Biblical? You have GOT to be *edited* me! As a person who recently re-dedicated himself to Christ and received the gift of tongues on the night of February 3, 2012, I (for one) believe that it IS Biblical.

I wish (now) that I had never, ever opened and read this thread because it's very discouraging......

Yes, these kinds of threads can lead to some discouragement. Hold fast to that which the Lord has opened your heart to, friend. Do as Paul instructs: stir up the gift within you---pray in tongues!