Willa Posted January 10, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 68 Topic Count: 185 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 14,224 Content Per Day: 3.33 Reputation: 16,647 Days Won: 30 Joined: 08/14/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted January 10, 2015 What Oakwood said is similar to what I've read on a site that a poster here showed me. It says that Jesus took upon everyone's sin when he was baptized by John and then his crucifixion paid for all that sin with his blood.I have not found any scripture to back Wildstar's claim that John the Baptist conferred the sin of the world on Jesus at His baptism. He did bear the sin of the world on the cross. I am sorry you were confused by false rumor. The gospel is in 1 Corinthians 15:3-5 that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He arose from the dead the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He was seen--". If you confess with you mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. No mention is ever made that you must believe in His baptism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kan Posted January 10, 2015 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,661 Content Per Day: 0.49 Reputation: 1,292 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/21/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 10, 2015 Look up leviticus 16 and 17, I cant recall exact verses at the moment. But it talks about the scapegoat and how sin was transferred on to it. And then it talks about blood atonement. Yes, there is an eventual transfer of sins - from the Lamb via the sanctuary back onto the perpetrator. God will not own our sins indefinitely, even though He bought our sins, as well as the lives of the world, by the Son. We cannot look at sin as just an accusation alone, it has to have real repercussions on the Life that God has given us through Christ in the beginning, and again by the sacrifice. In the Old Testament, I think it is in Isaiah, it says "My Word shall not return unto Me void" There is a cycle of continuous creative power from God to the creation/the universe/creatures and back to God. If dysfunction and death enter that realm, that life cycle, God is the one who suffers if it does not terminate the source of death. So the Life of God through the power of the word is destructive to sin/death, so that it cannot enter the universe. But because Satan and sinners live, Someone is at the receiving end of dysfunction and death, by withholding death from Satan and sinners, God suffers. He cannot die, but the scriptures say that death is God's last enemy, it causes suffering to Him, but only if He accepts the consequences and responsibilities of sin in the universe as His own. If God does that by choice, it becomes a real physical phenomenon for the Source of real life, to take on real dysfunction. We know that because God is perfect and life is perfectly created and given, and once it deviates from perfection then suffering and eventual death enter, unless God allows instant annihilation of the source. It would be impossible for sin to enter the universe, unless creatures had a free choice to sin, and that's how it entered. But we know that love cannot be love without perfect freedom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kan Posted January 10, 2015 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,661 Content Per Day: 0.49 Reputation: 1,292 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/21/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 10, 2015 What Oakwood said is similar to what I've read on a site that a poster here showed me. It says that Jesus took upon everyone's sin when he was baptized by John and then his crucifixion paid for all that sin with his blood. I have not found any scripture to back Wildstar's claim that John the Baptist conferred the sin of the world on Jesus at His baptism. He did bear the sin of the world on the cross. I am sorry you were confused by false rumor. The gospel is in 1 Corinthians 15:3-5 that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He arose from the dead the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He was seen--". If you confess with you mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. No mention is ever made that you must believe in His baptism. Christ was the sin bearer from birth, and it became very apparent to Him as He grew older. At His baptism, John cried out "Behold the Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world," He recognized Christ as the present sin bearer from the beginning of time and throughout His life as a man, and as the high priest of God in the future. In Isaiah we are told that He bore our infirmities, a man of sorrows acquainted with grief. He identified Himself with humanity to the point of bearing their infirmities, long before the cross and even the baptism or crucifixion. But the crucifixion period was the time when He would "become sin for us who knew no sin," sin was transferred onto the Lamb, and it was sacrificed. During His life, Christ longed with a burning desire to put an end to sin and give His life for sinners to be saved from it. That passion over-ruled the knowledge of the terrible experience of the cross, as well as the fact that the vast majority of humanity would not appreciate His gift. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 What Oakwood said is similar to what I've read on a site that a poster here showed me. It says that Jesus took upon everyone's sin when he was baptized by John and then his crucifixion paid for all that sin with his blood. I have not found any scripture to back Wildstar's claim that John the Baptist conferred the sin of the world on Jesus at His baptism. He did bear the sin of the world on the cross. I am sorry you were confused by false rumor. The gospel is in 1 Corinthians 15:3-5 that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He arose from the dead the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He was seen--". If you confess with you mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. No mention is ever made that you must believe in His baptism. Thank You Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; Romans 3:25 Jesus For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 2 Corinthians 5:21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlelambseativy Posted January 10, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 230 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 4,941 Content Per Day: 0.95 Reputation: 2,003 Days Won: 14 Joined: 02/08/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted January 10, 2015 You say man did not die..but man ( Adam ) did die...not the moment he tasted the fruit but he did die as do we. When I said it is a mystery I meant that a loving God would willingly send His Son to die for us so that we could be with Him forever. That kind of love is a mystery...we cannot imagine it. Jesus is the sacrifice for ALL will accept that willingly died in our place. Would anyone of us die in place of a man in prison on death row? But that is exactly what Jesus did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kan Posted January 10, 2015 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,661 Content Per Day: 0.49 Reputation: 1,292 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/21/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 10, 2015 You say man did not die..but man ( Adam ) did die...not the moment he tasted the fruit but he did die as do we. When I said it is a mystery I meant that a loving God would willingly send His Son to die for us so that we could be with Him forever. That kind of love is a mystery...we cannot imagine it. Jesus is the sacrifice for ALL will accept that willingly died in our place. Would anyone of us die in place of a man in prison on death row? But that is exactly what Jesus did. True, I understand what you are saying. Let's say that someone offers to die for the guilty on death row, would that offer be acceptable in court? No. That's what I want to know by asking, How does Christ's death atone? How is that possible? Legally and naturally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mswright6488 Posted January 10, 2015 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 25 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 213 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 73 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/14/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/30/1975 Share Posted January 10, 2015 oh how can it not atone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildstar Posted January 10, 2015 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 1 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 218 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 34 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/07/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted January 10, 2015 (edited) We can understand to a degree why Christ is our substitute, but how can it be so? How can His death pay for the penalty of the world, let alone His sinless life as the substitute for ours? You need to read the old testament to undertand the new. Jesus sacrifice was part of the atonement according to the sacrificial law set up through Moses. As another said, Jesus is the scapegoat. Leviticus 16 shows that Aaron sacrifices a goat for him and his household first. He then sacrifices another for all of Israel. But he then puts all of Israels sin onto the scapegoat and sends it away into the wilderness. Often if you read those old Jewish books you would see people tying a red cord around the goats horn. When it turned white the nation would realize God forgave them of their sin. At times, it did not change. And it stopped changing after Jesus came. Aaron was the one who did this, and if you read Luke 1:5, John the Baptist is a descendant of Aaron. Jesus himself said John was "elijah to come" and "john the greatest man born from women", the prophecies of John show him making Jesus paths straight. Read it side by side, You see Jesus being baptized by John in the Jordan then John confessing Jesus took away the worlds sin. Jesus goes into the wilderness. All sin requires blood and without blood there is no forgiveness and that is why he was crucified. When you pray for forgiveness for example I believe it is a false doctrine. Example, these people were neither water baptized nor were they praying but they believed Acts 10:43-47. Faith is what forgives but people put too much emphasis on the prayer. You pray to God confessing your sin, but believing in the sacrifice. You confess your sin with a repentant heart, believing Jesus took away the worlds sin (his baptism, water) crucified all sin once and for all through his death (blood) and you will get the holy spirit. 1 John 5:6 This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. 1 John 5:8 the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one. I hope you know then, the scapegoat was used to pay for the whole nation of Israel. But Jesus came, and he paid for the whole world. But to claim such a gift you have to repent firstly then believe Edited January 10, 2015 by Wildstar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OakWood Posted January 10, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 7 Topic Count: 867 Topics Per Day: 0.24 Content Count: 7,331 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 2,860 Days Won: 31 Joined: 04/09/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/28/1964 Share Posted January 10, 2015 You say man did not die..but man ( Adam ) did die...not the moment he tasted the fruit but he did die as do we. When I said it is a mystery I meant that a loving God would willingly send His Son to die for us so that we could be with Him forever. That kind of love is a mystery...we cannot imagine it. Jesus is the sacrifice for ALL will accept that willingly died in our place. Would anyone of us die in place of a man in prison on death row? But that is exactly what Jesus did. True, I understand what you are saying. Let's say that someone offers to die for the guilty on death row, would that offer be acceptable in court? No. That's what I want to know by asking, How does Christ's death atone? How is that possible? Legally and naturally. Legally it is possible because it is God's law not man's and naturally it is possible for the same reason. Under man's laws it would be ridiculous for a man to offer his life for the guilty on death row. It would achieve nothing because for starters the guilty would be free to commit another crime. No civilised society could function in this way. Even if the guilty criminal appeared to have repented and turned over a new leaf, there would be no way of knowing because it is impossible for mortal men to read another man's mind or to see into his heart. This system would be open to serious abuse. In this World and under our physical shortcomings we could not allow this. With God all things are possible. Christ pays for our sins because his crucifixion cancels out all other forms of atonement. It's not that God could not have done it any other way because he could have done. But if he did, he would have broken his word. God did it this way to show that sacrifice was to be finished with once and for all. Not only that but he shows how much he loves us by suffering in the way that he did. This is the ultimate expression of love, because God IS love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris12870 Posted January 10, 2015 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 23 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/20/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/28/1970 Share Posted January 10, 2015 What Oakwood said is similar to what I've read on a site that a poster here showed me. It says that Jesus took upon everyone's sin when he was baptized by John and then his crucifixion paid for all that sin with his blood. I have not found any scripture to back Wildstar's claim that John the Baptist conferred the sin of the world on Jesus at His baptism. He did bear the sin of the world on the cross. I am sorry you were confused by false rumor Why do you say that it's false rumor? I do not know everything Wildstar has said on these forums and I just read some of the site I was linked but both of you have faith in Jesus dying on the cross to pay for our sins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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