Breaking bottles

[Guest shiloh357]

Hi Shiloh, I started us off with an example of Jesus' teaching about secret fasting which, from my experience, many Christians have become inflexible about.

 

Perhaps you can give your own example?

Actually, that wasn't an example of inflexibility.    It was more of an example of your hyper-literalization of one of Jesus' teachings.

 

I will give you an example of something Jesus said about which I am completely inflexible on:    John 14:6:  "I am the way, the truth and the life; no man comes to the Father except through me."    I see Jesus as the only way of salvation.  I am inflexible and unmovable on that point.   Does that mean I have an "old bottle" mentality?  Should I be more open to a new way of salvation?

[Willa]

Some churches make a public display of giving, not allowing it to be done in secret but urging people to come forward with an offering so they will be blest with increase. That does remove their reward in heaven if not the blessing. Some publicly announce large gifts and people applaud, or they put their names on a plaque. This also is against God's teaching. These things cause peoples' admiration today more than fasting, which can be seen as weird or even an eating disorder. The people that I know who have fasted definitely keep it a secret. I avoid those who reveal a person's giving. Perhaps you should find a different circle of friends as well.

Perhaps the cracking and breaking is referring to the churches or denominations that have not held onto Christ and the Bible as inspired Word of God. Sometimes these old denominations would disappear except for mergers which make them appear to be gaining members. Some mega churches are replacing them by teaching what people want to hear instead of the truth and are attracting the goats. The sheep will listen to God's Word and follow Christ.

[gray_robe]

 

Some churches make a public display of giving, not allowing it to be done in secret but urging people to come forward with an offering so they will be blest with increase. That does remove their reward in heaven if not the blessing. Some publicly announce large gifts and people applaud, or they put their names on a plaque. This also is against God's teaching.

 

Hi Willa.  Good point.  Secret giving is also one of those teachings where we find it difficult to expand and accept a new point way of seeing.  Keeping our charitable giving just seems to contrary to our natural way of thinking.  How will people know if we don't tell them?

 

 

The people that I know who have fasted definitely keep it a secret.

 

But if that's the case, then you don't really know if they fast or not.  I think that is part of the teaching which challenges us.  Fasting can be hard work sometimes.  And charitable giving can be costly.  We don't like making these efforts without some kind of return on our investment, especially in a world where we've made payment for effort our standard model for life.

 

 

Perhaps the cracking and breaking is referring to the churches or denominations that have not held onto Christ

 

Hm, that's an interesting interpretation, too.  I think the principle can probably work both on an individual and group level.

[Wildstar]

I always considered the teaching referring to being born again.  The wine being the holy spirit and the wineskin the heart of man.  You cannot put his spirit into a heart filled with sin.  But a repentant heart circumcised by faith in Jesus Christ who can by his water and blood in otherwords sinless can have the dwelling of the Holy Spirit.  As God is hallowed he cannot dwell where sin is.  It is part of His character.

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

Some churches make a public display of giving, not allowing it to be done in secret but urging people to come forward with an offering so they will be blest with increase. That does remove their reward in heaven if not the blessing. Some publicly announce large gifts and people applaud, or they put their names on a plaque. This also is against God's teaching.

 

Hi Willa.  Good point.  Secret giving is also one of those teachings where we find it difficult to expand and accept a new point way of seeing.  Keeping our charitable giving just seems to contrary to our natural way of thinking.  How will people know if we don't tell them?

 

 

The people that I know who have fasted definitely keep it a secret.

 

But if that's the case, then you don't really know if they fast or not.  I think that is part of the teaching which challenges us.  Fasting can be hard work sometimes.  And charitable giving can be costly.  We don't like making these efforts without some kind of return on our investment, especially in a world where we've made payment for effort our standard model for life.

Equally problematic is the way you presume yourself  fit to sit in judgment on the motives of others.   It seems this thread was started for that reason, finding ways to judge other people, particularly if they tenaciously hold to values you don't agree with.

[gray_robe]

I always considered the teaching referring to being born again.  The wine being the holy spirit and the wineskin the heart of man.

 

Hi wildstar.  Nice observation.  I agree the teaching about the new wine skins is very similar to being born again.  And I agree that the wine is the Holy Spirit.  Jesus said "the words I speak to you are spirit and life" and said that the holy spirit's job will be to remind us of the teachings he taught us to follow.

 

I think it is our willingness to follow these teachings which causes us to be "born again" into a whole new set of values.  For example, in the world it's common for people to promote themselves and to seek after respectability.  This is why it's so tempting to promote our charitable works and to let others know when we are fasting.  But Jesus said we should keep all that secret and at times it becomes awkward to do so, especially when people start to question our spirituality.

 

There are so many teachings of Jesus which are like that, setting us at odds with the common values of the world and I believe it is a resistance to this change which causes the breaking that Jesus described of the old, hard, inflexible wine skins.

 

Another example of this is Jesus' instructions on disagreements from Matthew 18  where he says if you have a disagreement with your bro/sis go to that person privately and try to work it out.  If that doesn't work, involve two or three witnesses. If they still refuse to hear the truth then involve the whole church and if they still refuse then kick them out.  It's a good system which avoids a lot of the gossip and murmuring that often happens when we're angry with people.  But it's not a particularly easy system to practice.  It can often take a lot of time and effort to work through problems and usually it's easier to just murmur or ignore the problems.

[Guest shiloh357]

 

I always considered the teaching referring to being born again.  The wine being the holy spirit and the wineskin the heart of man.

 

Hi wildstar.  Nice observation.  I agree the teaching about the new wine skins is very similar to being born again.  And I agree that the wine is the Holy Spirit.  Jesus said "the words I speak to you are spirit and life" and said that the holy spirit's job will be to remind us of the teachings he taught us to follow.

 

I think it is our willingness to follow these teachings which causes us to be "born again" into a whole new set of values.  For example, in the world it's common for people to promote themselves and to seek after respectability.  This is why it's so tempting to promote our charitable works and to let others know when we are fasting.  But Jesus said we should keep all that secret and at times it becomes awkward to do so, especially when people start to question our spirituality.

Jesus was talking about motives of self-righteous and self-serving vain glory.    It wasn't that we are not allowed to mention our fast if the situation arises; rather, Jesus was speaking to those who exploited the discipline of fasting just to serve their own narcissistic desire to appear holy and pious.  It was all about keeping up an appearance in order to gain the praise of men.

 

Gray robe, your approach to this issue is tainted by your inability to really grasp what is lying behind these commandments and the issues and cultural peculiarities that served as the basis and/or occasion for Jesus' comments.

 

The parable of the wine skins is the same thing.  You are painting the parable as speaking against inflexibility in the face of new ideas or change, and that is not what Jesus was addressing.

 

Another example of this is Jesus' instructions on disagreements from Matthew 18  where he says if you have a disagreement with your bro/sis go to that person privately and try to work it out.  If that doesn't work, involve two or three witnesses. If they still refuse to hear the truth then involve the whole church and if they still refuse then kick them out.  It's a good system which avoids a lot of the gossip and murmuring that often happens when we're angry with people.  But it's not a particularly easy system to practice.  It can often take a lot of time and effort to work through problems and usually it's easier to just murmur or ignore the problems.

 

It is practiced, though.  It is the core of my church's by-laws regarding church discipline.

[gray_robe]

 

It is practiced, though.  It is the core of my church's by-laws regarding church discipline.

 

 

Oh, that's interesting and good to hear.  What happens if someone doesn't follow the rule (i.e. someone gossips about a problem they have with someone else, rather than going to that person directly)?

 

 

Jesus was talking about motives of self-righteous and self-serving vain glory.

 

 

Agreed.  It certainly can be a nice feeling when someone discovers our discipline and thinks well of us.  Perhaps there are times when it could be relevant or even important to let others know about our fasting, and yet the command is still there; when you fast, do so secretly, even making efforts to deceive others about it by giving the appearance that you are happy and healthy rather than hungry and haggard.

 

I think the point of the command was because Jesus knows how strong our vanity can be at times.  We don't always just naturally do what's best for ourselves spiritually, so the command is there to help us when we feel tempted.  For example, you're in a situation where others are talking about their fasting and how wonderful it's been for them, but you feel left out.  If you keep quiet, it could give the impression that you don't fast (even if it's just in your own imagination that people are looking down on you).  You may feel tempted to just casually mention your own fasting, not in a vain way, but just in a kinda simple way that lets them know you're spiritual too, but not boasting about it or anything.

 

Reminding ourselves that Jesus said to keep it secret could be just the right thing we need to stop ourselves from spoiling the secret of our fasting. "I want to let them know that I'm spiritual too, but I won't because Jesus said not to do that".   Who cares if it gives the impression that we don't fast if we never mention it to others.  Often it's only our pride that wants us to mention the fast so that people will not think we're spiritually lazy, or, as you mentioned, vanity that wants them to recognize our sacrifice and spirituality. 

 

The example of the inflexible wine skins becomes relevant when, even after hearing Jesus' command about keeping the fasting secret, people still argue that's not really what Jesus meant or that there are exceptions to the rule.  Eventually, the exceptions become the rule.  I've seen examples of this where a person's personal fasting is publicly questioned as a point of measuring one's spiritual progress, i.e. fasting becomes part of a testimony which only "edifies" others if it's made public.

 

The same happens with secret giving, very similar to what Willa described where people are encouraged to make a display of their giving to "increase the blessing".  If you question them on this, they often become angry.  They could even accuse you of being un-christian or not really caring about what the Bible says.  They all have their various proof texts to back it up, too.  The harder you push them, the more the cracks start to appear and I believe this is true whether it's a person who is trying to correct them or the Holy Spirit attempting to convict them about how they've ignored Jesus' instructions.

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

It is practiced, though.  It is the core of my church's by-laws regarding church discipline.

 

 

Oh, that's interesting and good to hear.  What happens if someone doesn't follow the rule (i.e. someone gossips about a problem they have with someone else, rather than going to that person directly)?

I dunno.  Our church is small enough that we don't really have a problem with that.

 

 

Jesus was talking about motives of self-righteous and self-serving vain glory.

 

 

Agreed.  It certainly can be a nice feeling when someone discovers our discipline and thinks well of us.  Perhaps there are times when it could be relevant or even important to let others know about our fasting, and yet the command is still there; when you fast, do so secretly, even making efforts to deceive others about it by giving the appearance that you are happy and healthy rather than hungry and haggard.

 

I think the point of the command was because Jesus knows how strong our vanity can be at times.  We don't always just naturally do what's best for ourselves spiritually, so the command is there to help us when we feel tempted.  For example, you're in a situation where others are talking about their fasting and how wonderful it's been for them, but you feel left out.  If you keep quiet, it could give the impression that you don't fast (even if it's just in your own imagination that people are looking down on you).  You may feel tempted to just casually mention your own fasting, not in a vain way, but just in a kinda simple way that lets them know you're spiritual too, but not boasting about it or anything.

 

Reminding ourselves that Jesus said to keep it secret could be just the right thing we need to stop ourselves from spoiling the secret of our fasting. "I want to let them know that I'm spiritual too, but I won't because Jesus said not to do that".   Who cares if it gives the impression that we don't fast if we never mention it to others.  Often it's only our pride that wants us to mention the fast so that people will not think we're spiritually lazy, or, as you mentioned, vanity that wants them to recognize our sacrifice and spirituality. 

 

 

 

It wasn't about keeping it a secret.  It was about not letting it become an issue of pride.  Jesus' point was not that fasting or giving are top secret activities.  All Jesus is saying is don't go around talking about it so as to garner praise and adoration from people.

 

Most people don't care if you fast or not, in our culture.  If someone wants to take you to dinner and you decline and he or she ask why, and you explain that you are fasting for some reason, most people simply respect it and move on.  Jesus was not saying that you just lost your reward from God in that situation.  But, if you walk into church and make a public display of it, that's different.   That's true with anything not just fasting or giving.  

 

The example of the inflexible wine skins becomes relevant when, even after hearing Jesus' command about keeping the fasting secret, people still argue that's not really what Jesus meant or that there are exceptions to the rule.

 

No, you're still misapplying the wineskin parable. The wineskin parable is not about stubborn disobedience in moral or ethical issues.   It is about advent of the Gospel and that includes among other things, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.   Those who want to remain under the Old Covenant are like the old wineskin.  Those who trust in Christ are likened to the new wineskin.  They are regenerated and able to receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the blessings of the New Covenant.

[Salty]

In Matthew 9 Jesus tells a parable about pouring new wine into old bottles.  Because the "bottles" are old and hard they leave no room for expansion when the new wine is poured in. As a result they crack and break.  However, new bottles are soft and flexible so they do have room to expand with the new wine.  As a result they do not crack and break.

 

I believe this parable is making reference to how we respond to Jesus' teachings.  A good deal of what Jesus taught is radical, even confrontational.  Jesus was all about change.  He talked about being born again, becoming like little children with a fresh new sense of wonder for the values of the kingdom of Heaven.  Much of what he said challenges our old ways of thinking.  He challenged our pride, greed, materialism, laziness, and respectability.

 

Some people had/have problems with these teachings and I believe this is what happened with the pharisees. They just would not change with the times.  They were stuck in their old, hardened ways of thinking and as a result their "cracking" took the form of deep hatred and anger for the source of those teachings.

 

With hindsight we can see pretty clearly just how wrong the pharisees were, but what about when it comes to ourselves? Is that kind of thing still happening today?  Do we still find old inflexible bottles cracking when it comes to pouring in the new teachings of Jesus and his new Kingdom?  I think so but maybe it would be helpful to discuss some practical examples to get a better idea of how it works.

 

I'll get it started with an example from Matthew 6, where Jesus tells us to keep our fasting secret.  Not only should we keep it secret  but we should take steps to make sure no one knows.  Wash our face, comb our hair, present a happy and healthy appearance despite feeling hungry and tired.

 

And yet, I've talked to many Christians who commonly talk about their fasting as though it's the most natural thing to do so.  Often when I mention Jesus' teachings, they will present various reasons for why their situation is an exception to the teaching about keeping our fasting secret. It usually only takes just a little pushing to expose a rising anger at being challenged on their public fasting.

 

What do others think?

 

The actual meaning wasn't about bottles, but wineskins, for that is what they used at the time. An old skin would break if you put newly fermenting wine in it that needed to expand. A new skin wouldn't break.

 

The comparison is like what He asked His disciples in Mark 8, asking them how many 'fragments' in baskets they gathered up after His feeding the five thousand and seven thousand.

 

The loaves that went out to the multitudes went out 'whole', but they came back as baskets of fragments that was a much larger amount than what went out. Jesus compared those 'fragments' that came back as 'leaven' doctrines of men that had been added.

 

That's what the 'old bottles' (or old skins) represent too. The 'new wine' is like the whole loaves that went out. With those stuck on 'old bottle' traditions of men, they are not able to expand to include the full wine of His Word. It's also comparable to what Hebrews 5 said about those who were in need of being taught the first principles of Christ when they should have progressed to the "strong meat" of God's Word becoming teachers. Instead, they were still on the 'milk' of God's Word.

 

God's Holy Writ declares deep things which many people even on this forum would have a hard time understanding or believing, simply because they are used to the 'old bottle' traditions instead. People like safety and permanence, they don't like change. So anything that seems to upset their security blanket, they tend to get bent out of shape about. Yet God expects us to accept what He says, and that is how things will happen, regardless of what men think, and regardless whether or not men understand it how it could be possible.