The hidden mystery of the Triune God

[George]

Shalom everyone,

 

inChrist in another thread asked if we could discuss the triunity of God, so I will go ahead and start a thread concerning this subject.

 

Your brother in the Lord with much agape love,

 

George

[George]

This subject comes up often within Israel since the Jewish people have always understood the oneness of God -- for example, The Lord our God -- the Lord are God is one is constantly quoted throughout Israel.

 

The word one -- is the word echad -- which literally means oneness.  If it was an absolute one -- the word would be yachid in Hebrew.  For example, when a man marries a woman they become "echad" -- they become ONE -- but you can see they are not "ONE" person.  Thus the oneness of God is shown throughout the Scriptures -- however he shows many faces.

 

The word FACE in Hebrew is the word -- Panim -- which literally means "FACES" it's often misunderstood as God has many "faces". 

 

In Hebrew the 'im' at the end of Hebrew words show a multiplicity this is why one of the most common words for God is the word -- elohim!

 

Now that we have a basic understanding of the multiplicity of God -- and in an attempt to have a conversation, I'll simply begin the discussion with a scripture and we'll discuss it out.

 

Isaiah 48:16  Draw near to me, hear this: from the beginning I have not spoken in secret, from the time it came to be I have been there." And now the Lord GOD has sent me, and his Spirit.
Isa 48:17  Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel: "I am the LORD your God, who teaches you to profit, who leads you in the way you should go.

 

Here we have a clear understanding of the triunity of God -- the Lord GOD -- YHVH -- hath sent me (who is me) and His Spirit.  Who says this?  the LORD your redeemer!

 

Thus we have a conceptual understanding of the "faces" of Elohim!
 

[George]

On of the issues that often comes up -- is Jesus -- YHVH -- which is the 4 letters of the Hebrew alphabet that form the word Jehovah -- Yehovah -- would be the better pronunciation since there's no J in Hebrew.  The same 4 letters often are said as Yahweh in English.  The reality is that since the Jewish people don't know the proper way to say the name -- and call these 4 letters the unspeakable name of God -- Jewish people simply say the word -- HaShem -- which simply means The Name.  When it's read in the synagogues, they use the word -- Adonai.

 

In Jeremiah this is what YHVH declares,

 

Jeremiah 17:10  "I the LORD (YHVH) search the heart and test the mind, to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds." 

 

And in revelation as Jesus reveals himself to John he declares, 

 

Revelation 2:23  and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches will know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you according to your works.

 

So you can see that the YHVH and Jesus are one and the same.

 

In this next Scripture -- we see something very interesting -- the LORD -- and His Redeemer -- the LORD!

 

Isaiah 44:6  Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: "I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god. 

 

And YHVH -- the Redeemer says -- I am the FIRST AND THE LAST!

 

And this is what Jesus says as He reveals himself to John in Revelation --

 

Rev 1:17  When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, "Fear not, I am the first and the last,

Rev 1:18  and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.

 

So the Scriptures don't contradict themselves -- but rather we begin to see a plurality in the Godhead.

[George]

Apparently you are only taking a snippet of Matthew Henry's commentary to support your own views.

 

This is the entire portion of which you missed --

 

The prophet himself, as a type of the great prophet, asserts his own commission to deliver this message: Now the Lord God (the same that spoke from the beginning and did not speak in secret) has by his Spirit sent me, Isa_48:16. The Spirit of God is here spoken of as a person distinct from the Father and the Son, and having a divine authority to send prophets. Note, Whom God sends the Spirit sends. Those whom God commissions for any service the Spirit in some measure qualifies for it; and those may speak boldly, and must be heard obediently, whom God and his Spirit send. As that which the prophet says to the same purport with this (Isa_61:1) is applied to Christ (Luk_4:21), so may this be; the Lord God sent him, and he had the Spirit without measure.

 

Please don't take snippets of commentaries to support your views.   Matthew Henry actually supports this passage as being applied to Jesus -- not to Isaiah in his conclusion!

[George]

If you want to study the Hebrew of a passage, as in the case of Isaiah 48, I would suggest studying the Keil-Deiletch commentary.  This is what the commentary says about this passage --

 

now hath the Lord Jehovah sent me and His Spirit?” The majority of the commentators assume that the prophet comes forward here in his own person, behind Him whom he has introduced, and interrupts Him. But although it is perfectly true, that in all prophecy, from Deuteronomy onwards, words of Jehovah through the prophet and words of the prophet of Jehovah alternate in constant, and often harsh transitions, and that our prophet has this mark of divine inspiration in common with all the other prophets (cf., Isa_62:5-6), it must also be borne in mind, that hitherto he has not spoken once objectively of himself, except quite indirectly (vid., Isa_40:6; Isa_44:26), to say nothing of actually coming forward in his own person. Whether this takes place further on, more especially in Isa_61:1-11, we will leave for the present; but here, since the prophet has not spoken in his own person before, whereas, on the other hand, these words are followed in Isa_49:1. by an address concerning himself from that servant of Jehovah who announces himself as the restorer of Israel and light of the Gentiles, and who cannot therefore be ether Israel as a nation or the author of these prophecies, nothing is more natural than to suppose that the words, “And now hath the Lord,” etc., form a prelude to the words of the One unequalled servant of Jehovah concerning Himself which occur in chapter 49.

[George]

 

 

The portion of Jacob is not like them; for he is the former of all things: and Israel is the rod of his inheritance: the LORD of hosts is his name.

 

Jacob is the former, Lord of hosts is his name, speaker confusion, based on the above verse of interpretation by trinitarians of Isiah 48:16 then makes Jacob the LORD of Hosts.

Shalom inChrist,

 

At first I couldn't figure out where this was in the passage -- that's because it's in Jeremiah 51:19.  The irony is when I did a google search for your post -- I found it on several Jehovah Witness sites.  If you're just going to copy and paste other sites and not think for yourself -- this debate isn't going anywhere.   Honestly, if it's just a discussion, and we're simply examining Scripture -- and it's a discussion between the two of us.  If you use sources -- quote them, so that others may study for themselves.

 

As you see, all I was doing was quoting the Bible.  I didn't bring anything to the table except the Scriptures themselves as the Bible is it's own best dictionary.  

 

As far as the passage you referenced in Jeremiah 51:19, it's an interesting verse which I never studied before in this context in which its been brought up.  But this "double speak" of which these sites propose are speaking without any real understanding of Hebrew.  For if they truly understood Hebrew -- they would never even say the word J-ehovah -- since there's no J sound in Hebrew!

 

When I get a chance to study out the Jeremiah 51:19 reference in its entirety, I'll address it here. 

[George]

As I look at this passage in Jeremiah 51 -- when you look at it in its context -- this particular reference is actually repeated two times in Jeremiah, once in Jeremiah 10 and again in Jeremiah 51.

 

Jer 10:10  But the LORD is the true God; he is the living God and the everlasting King. At his wrath the earth quakes, and the nations cannot endure his indignation. 

Jer 10:11  Thus shall you say to them: "The gods who did not make the heavens and the earth shall perish from the earth and from under the heavens." 

Jer 10:12  It is he who made the earth by his power, who established the world by his wisdom, and by his understanding stretched out the heavens. 

Jer 10:13  When he utters his voice, there is a tumult of waters in the heavens, and he makes the mist rise from the ends of the earth. He makes lightning for the rain, and he brings forth the wind from his storehouses. 

Jer 10:14  Every man is stupid and without knowledge; every goldsmith is put to shame by his idols, for his images are false, and there is no breath in them. 

Jer 10:15  They are worthless, a work of delusion; at the time of their punishment they shall perish. 

Jer 10:16  Not like these is he who is the portion of Jacob, for he is the one who formed all things, and Israel is the tribe of his inheritance; the LORD of hosts is his name. 

 

Jer 51:15  "It is he who made the earth by his power, who established the world by his wisdom, and by his understanding stretched out the heavens. 

Jer 51:16  When he utters his voice there is a tumult of waters in the heavens, and he makes the mist rise from the ends of the earth. He makes lightning for the rain, and he brings forth the wind from his storehouses. 

Jer 51:17  Every man is stupid and without knowledge; every goldsmith is put to shame by his idols, for his images are false, and there is no breath in them. 

Jer 51:18  They are worthless, a work of delusion; at the time of their punishment they shall perish. 

Jer 51:19  Not like these is he who is the portion of Jacob, for he is the one who formed all things, and Israel is the tribe of his inheritance; the LORD of hosts is his name. 

 

The reference that was called into question is not "double speak" but rather isn't confined to a singular verse.  Remember that passages in the Bible never had "verse numbers" or chapters, and often if you isolate a single verse you can come away with radically different conclusions than what was intended.  In these passages, Jeremiah is describing the Lord, the creator of all things -- then the foolishness of idolatry -- then a promise given to Israel -- and his name is the LORD OF HOSTS!

 

When looking at this passage in its context, it's not "double speak" but one needs to start at which verse the passage actually begins.

[George]

In understanding the "Lord of Hosts", you'll come to an interesting passage in Isaiah 54.

 

Isaiah 54:5  For your Maker is your husband, the LORD of hosts is his name; and the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer, the God of the whole earth he is called. 

 

The creator of heaven and earth is your HUSBAND.  Interesting, since the Bible also describes "believers" as the bride -- adorned for her bridegroom -- Jesus.

 

As John the Baptist says in John 3:29, "The one who has the bride is the bridegroom. The friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly at the bridegroom's voice. Therefore this joy of mine is now complete."

 

As you study marriage a common passage is in Ephesians 5,

 

Eph 5:23  For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. 

Eph 5:24  Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands. 

Eph 5:25  Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 

Eph 5:26  that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 

Eph 5:27  so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. 

Eph 5:28  In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 

Eph 5:29  For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, 

Eph 5:30  because we are members of his body. 

Eph 5:31  "Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh." 

Eph 5:32  This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. 

 

As Paul addressed the church in Corinth, he presented the church -- but he feared that another JESUS would corrupt the very doctrine which he espoused.

 

2 Co 11:2  For I feel a divine jealousy for you, since I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ.

2 Co 11:3  But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ.

2 Co 11:4  For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough. 

 

 

When studying out the passages throughout the Bible there is continuity -- an understanding that is interwoven from its very inception -- that the understanding of God is multifaceted -- a plurality of God which our finite minds cannot fully comprehend -- nevertheless the truths of His multiplicity are shown over and over again throughout the Scriptures.

[George]

Sure -- I'll wait.    My brain is going from one conversation piece to the next as though we're having a conversation.  So as I start with one Scripture my brain is unlocking other scriptures that follow the thought process.  I'll try to be patient.  

[George]

If you truly look at the passage of Isaiah 48:16-17.

 

Isa 48:16  Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning

 

Is Isaiah speaking here?  Was Isaiah speaking since the beginning of creation?  It's a reference to Genesis 1.  Where the Lord says, "Gen 1:26  And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27  So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

 

It's an amazing idea that we're created in the image of God.  But who is the image of God? 

 

Col 1:13  Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14  In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Col 1:15  Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16  For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17  And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

 

The savior of the world -- YHVH the redeemer of Israel -- Jesus (Yeshua) is the image of the invisible God! 

 

Now the savior who was ALSO the creator -- and whom was at the BEGINNING --

 

John 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2  The same was in the beginning with God.

John 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Now this Word who became flesh was at the BEGINNING -- the IMAGE of the invisible God -- whom mankind was CREATED in HIS IMAGE says as we continue in Isaiah 48:

 

; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

 

Was it Isaiah who has been from the beginning?  In the context you see who ME is in the very next verse.

 

Isa 48:17  Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

 

The mystery from the creation of time was revealed in this piece of Scripture.