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The hidden mystery of the Triune God


George

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Whither that verse is found on JW site or another site doesn't taint the verse.

I wasn't saying the verse was found on the JW site.  The entire post was found on the JW site.  "speaker confusion" etc.  The context of the verse easily explains the "erroneous" argument they used.  It was the JW site that quoted Matthew Henry -- in ERROR I might add that was simply reused in your presentation in trying to refute Isaiah 48:16-17.  Brother, think for yourself -- let the Holy One of Israel reveal His truth to you!  If you need to depend on the teachings of men -- then you fail to recognize who OUR GOD is!  He so wants to reveal Himself!  Remember in these last days -- there are many FALSE Jesus' -- do you really want to be following the wrong Jesus?

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Now since you brought up the Isaiah 6 passage, let's see if the us in the passage is the seraphim -- or is it the Lord?  Let's the Scriptures speak for themselves.

 

Isa 6:1  In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.
Isa 6:2  Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
Isa 6:3  And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

 

Many commentators will say the reason we have HOLY, HOLY, HOLY is because of the triunity of God -- however, let's not debate that issue right now.

 

Isa 6:4  And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.
Isa 6:5  Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.
Isa 6:6  Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:
Isa 6:7  And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.
Isa 6:8  Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
Isa 6:9  And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
Isa 6:10  Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

 

How can you possibly say the us is the seraphims?  When it's clearly the voice of the LORD speaking.  Once again onesness of God along with the plurality of God is shown -- who will go for US?

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Let's go one step at a time.

 

 

"Come ye near unto Me, hear ye this: From the beginning I have not spoken in secret; from the time that it was, there am I.


Where does it say from the beginning of creation? This could be the beginning of Israel, this could be the beginning of the time of Isaiah?

The term beginning is obscure in its rendering, and to some it means from the beginning -- and to others it's a reference to Cyrus -- or to the Babylonian captivity.  In this particular case, its ambiguous.  As different commentators have their understandings.

 

For example, David Gutzik's commentary understands this passage as I understand it.

 

Come near to Me, hear this . . . now the Lord GOD and His Spirit have sent Me: This is the Servant of the LORD, the Messiah Himself speaking. Only He was from the beginning. The Messiah is pleading with His people!

 

As another translation puts it --

 

Come near to me, and give ear to this; from the start I did not keep it secret; from the time of its coming into existence I was there: and now the Lord God has sent me, and given me his spirit.

 

So I certainly understand others who don't see it as what the beginning means -- however the Scriptures are clear that the Lord Jesus was at the beginning of creation, and all things were made by Him, so in light of the multitude of other Scriptures my understanding is certainly valid.  But we'll see when we meet the Lord face to face as we'll understand this Scripture fully and in its entirety!

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The Isaiah 6 passage is defined CLEARLY in John.  For look at how John DEFINES Isaiah 6.
 

Joh 12:39  Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said,
Joh 12:40  "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them."
Joh 12:41  Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory and spoke of him.

 

What verse is John referencing? 

 

Isaiah 6:9  And he said, "Go, and say to this people: "'Keep on hearing, but do not understand; keep on seeing, but do not perceive.'
Isa 6:10  Make the heart of this people dull, and their ears heavy, and blind their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed."

 

He's referring to the passage, that you deny is speaking of the Lord Jesus (Yeshua) sitting on the throne!  Do you deny the gospel of John?  Or is John in error as well?

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In your thought process -- you claim the ME in Isaiah 48:16-17 must be Isaiah comparing the "ME" to Isaiah 6. 

 

So is it your contention then the ME in Isaiah 60 is also Isaiah?

 

Isa 61:1  The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me, because the LORD has anointed me to bring good news to the poor; he has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to those who are bound;
Isa 61:2  to proclaim the year of the LORD's favor, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all who mourn;

 

Or perhaps the ME is connected to Jesus (Yeshua)?

 

Luke 4:17  And the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was given to him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written,
Luke 4:18  "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed,
Luke 4:19  to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."
Luke 4:20  And he rolled up the scroll and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on him.
Luke 4:21  And he began to say to them, "Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing."

 

Perhaps if you argue the ME is Isaiah -- then you can also argue the ME is Jesus.  So perhaps you should re-read the entire chapter of Isaiah 48 -- and you'll see the entire passage is the revelation of who God is.

 

Isa 48:11  For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it, for how should my name be profaned? My glory I will not give to another.
Isa 48:12  "Listen to me, O Jacob, and Israel, whom I called! I am he; I am the first, and I am the last.

Isa 48:13  My hand laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand forth together.
Isa 48:14  "Assemble, all of you, and listen! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; he shall perform his purpose on Babylon, and his arm shall be against the Chaldeans.
Isa 48:15  I, even I, have spoken and called him; I have brought him, and he will prosper in his way.

Isa 48:16  Draw near to me, hear this: from the beginning I have not spoken in secret, from the time it came to be I have been there." And now the Lord GOD has sent me, and his Spirit.
Isa 48:17  Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel: "I am the LORD your God, who teaches you to profit, who leads you in the way you should go.
Isa 48:18  Oh that you had paid attention to my commandments! Then your peace would have been like a river, and your righteousness like the waves of the sea;
Isa 48:19  your offspring would have been like the sand, and your descendants like its grains; their name would never be cut off or destroyed from before me."

 

The entire passage of Isaiah 48 is a revelation of who God is!  He is the first and the last, the creator of heaven and the redeemer of Israel!

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Well no, your understanding is based on your own preconceived rendering of scripture, this is why we looking HONESTLY at the evidence and OBJECTIVELY, not SUBJECTIVELY in order to come to TRUTH and CONSISTENCY

Col 1:13  Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Col 1:14  In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Col 1:15  Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Col 1:16  For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Col 1:17  And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

 

So tell me how these Scriptures don't show that Jesus is the creator?

 

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Exactly God is not the Son of Man

 

 

As we look into the Messiah -- King of Israel aspect, we'll see that the King of Israel -- is in fact YHVH -- our righteousness!

 

Jer 23:5  "Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land. 
Jer 23:6  In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell securely. And this is the name by which he will be called: 'The LORD is our righteousness.
 
Jer 33:15  In those days and at that time I will cause a righteous Branch to spring up for David, and he shall execute justice and righteousness in the land. 
Jer 33:16  In those days Judah will be saved, and Jerusalem will dwell securely. And this is the name by which it will be called: 'The LORD is our righteousness.' 
Jer 33:17  "For thus says the LORD: David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel, 
 
2Co 5:18  All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 
2Co 5:19  that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 
2Co 5:20  Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 
2Co 5:21  For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. 
 
So we see a man sitting on the throne of Israel and His Name is YHVH our RIGHEOUSNESS!
 
Eze 1:26  And above the expanse over their heads there was the likeness of a throne, in appearance like sapphire; and seated above the likeness of a throne was a likeness with a human appearance.
Eze 1:27  And upward from what had the appearance of his waist I saw as it were gleaming metal, like the appearance of fire enclosed all around. And downward from what had the appearance of his waist I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and there was brightness around him. 
Eze 1:28  Like the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud on the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness all around. Such was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell on my face, and I heard the voice of one speaking.
 
Perhaps these Scriptures will help you understand that YES YHVH -- came in the FLESH -- became a MAN -- and will come again -- and SIT on the THRONE!
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If we look at Philippians 2:5-11 
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
 
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: ( Yet that’s exactly what you just did you made Jesus who is the image of God equated to being God, YOU made Jesus the form of God equal to God, here it is explicitly STATED to not be  considered equality to God)
 
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Paul explicitly states that He considered himself EQUAL to God.  What else does -- "thought it not ROBBERY to be EQUAL with GOD" mean?

 

As I quote Matthew Henry's commentary as he explores the dual nature of Jesus, which you addressed in your post.

 

 

Notice the two natures of Christ; his Divine nature, and human nature. Who being in the form of God, partaking the Divine nature, as the eternal and only-begotten Son of God, Joh_1:1, had not thought it a robbery to be equal with God, and to receive Divine worship from men. His human nature; herein he became like us in all things except sin. Thus low, of his own will, he stooped from the glory he had with the Father before the world was. Christ's two states, of humiliation and exaltation, are noticed. Christ not only took upon him the likeness and fashion, or form of a man, but of one in a low state; not appearing in splendour. His whole life was a life of poverty and suffering. But the lowest step was his dying the death of the cross, the death of a malefactor and a slave; exposed to public hatred and scorn. The exaltation was of Christ's human nature, in union with the Divine.

 

I'll repost the other posts later -- but the preponderance of Scriptures clearly show over and over again that YHVH the Redeemer -- is in fact Jesus -- and that He is in fact YHVH.

 

Remember that it's not J-ehovah -- there's no J in Hebrew. 

 

So be sure to explain that to your elders -- and ask them -- why do you use the name J-ehovah -- when clearly in Hebrew the letters that form YHVH (Yud-Hay-Vav-Hay -- the pronunciation of the Hebrew Letters that form Ya-hov-vah or Yah-weh (there's a debate on which is correct -- but it's definitely NOT JEHOVAH since there is NO LETTER J in Hebrew.)

 

inChrist, think for yourself -- and pray to the Father before you post!  Don't just listen blindly to the teachings of men -- a cult that was formed in the late 1800's -- but seek the Lord and I trust the Lord will reveal these truths to you -- for some of the "Scriptures" the Watchtower can manipulate to their destruction -- but there's literally scores of Scriptures that show over and over again that YHVH came as our Redeemer -- for He is truly our salvation!  As Isaiah says in Isaiah 43:11, "I, I am the LORD, and besides me there is no savior."

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Thank you for showing the Scriptures -- as it says -- "thought it not robbery to be equal to God"  And over and over again -- it's something hard to grasp!  :)

 

But the truth shines throughout the Scriptures -- that Jesus (Yeshua) is YHVH the Redeemer -- the Holy One of Israel.

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No all things were made by God the Father

So the Scripture proof you have for this?

 

Gen 1:1  In the beginning God -- ELOHIM -- created the heavens and the earth.

 

Perhaps you should look at this passage --

 

Jeremiah 32:17  'Ah, Lord GOD! It is you who have made the heavens and the earth by your great power and by your outstretched arm! Nothing is too hard for you.

 

So who is the ARM of the Lord?

 

Isa 53:1  Who has believed what he has heard from us? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

Isa 53:2  For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or majesty that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him.

Isa 53:3  He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Isa 53:4  Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted.

Isa 53:5  But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed.

My friend -- the Scriptures overwhelming show the YHVH the Redeemer is in fact -- the Lord who was crucified for your sins!

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