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The hidden mystery of the Triune God


George

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Elohim represented in three persons -- the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit -- each fulfills its role in the Godhead. 

 

Perhaps an understanding of the arm of God will help.  An arm of a person doesn't do anything unless the head tells it to do it.  The ARM is completely subservient to the head.  And throughout Scriptures, we see the ARM of God at work.

 

Exo 6:6  Say therefore to the people of Israel, 'I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will deliver you from slavery to them, and I will redeem you with an outstretched arm and with great acts of judgment.  (Redemption from slavery is by the ARM of the Lord)

 

Isa 40:10  Behold, the Lord GOD comes with might, and his arm rules for him; behold, his reward is with him, and his recompense before him. (Arm rules for Him -- and the Reward is with Him)

 

Isa 40:11  He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young. (The Arm of the Lord GATHERS his SHEEP)

 

Isa 51:5  My righteousness draws near, my salvation has gone out, and my arm will judge the peoples; the coastlands hope for me, and for my arm they wait. (Arm of God judges -- and the arm of God they wait.)

 

Isa 52:10  The LORD has bared his holy arm before the eyes of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.  (The Lord reveals His ARM -- and the earth shall see the -- SALVATION -- literally YESHUA -- Jesus Hebrew name -- of our God!)

 

And I quote what I said above --

 

So who is the ARM of the Lord?

 

Isa 53:1  Who has believed what he has heard from us? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

Isa 53:2  For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or majesty that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him.
Isa 53:3  He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Isa 53:4  Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5  But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed.

 

Can you not see the very ARM of God -- is in fact Jesus (Yeshua) -- and how he is subservient to the Father -- yet He is still the ARM of God?

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First of all -- the word is singular -- because God is ECHAD -- ONENESS -- however this doesn't negate the fact that He is still ELOHIM -- which shows a plurality.  An example of a plurality would be Yerushaylim -- Jerusalem -- we know Jerusalem is a city -- but it shows a multiplicity thus why we read about a New Jerusalem coming!

 

Hashamayim -- heavens -- we see a HEAVEN above -- and yet we read about the third heaven [2Co 12:2  I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows.], showing a multiplicity of heaven.

 

Whenever you see an --im as a suffix in the Hebrew it shows a plurality of some measure.

 

It's the same situation you see OVER AND OVER AND OVER again in Hebrew.  It's a revealed secret -- thus a hidden mystery the complexity of Elohim -- just as the complexity of Yerushalyim  or Hashamayim -- may the Lord reveal the hidden truths of His Word to you!

 

 

None of this provides evidence of pre-existance but clearly pre – viewed.

 

But Jesus must have preexisted before He was born.  Why then would John say of Isaiah -- Joh 12:41  Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory and spoke of him.

 

How could Isaiah SEE HIS GLORY unless He was ALREADY SEATED on the THRONE -- in Isaiah 6, thus showing that he pre-existed before His birth.

 

John 17:5  And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

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The ARM of God is not the HEAD of God.  Can you not see in a simple picture how it can be ONE being represented in multifaceted dimensions?  Did I ever claim that Jesus (Yeshua) was the HEAD?  Not I said He is the very ARM of God!   Different -- yet ECHAD -- and nevertheless it never changes the deity of the arm of God -- nor does it change the deity of the head of God.  It's the mystery of God -- in the simple word -- Elohim!

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Perhaps we should look at the very SON of God aspect and hopefully this will open your eyes to the reality of the UNIQUE Son of God.

 

Isa 9:6  For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isa 9:7  Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this.

 

This passage is a powerful passage in Isaiah which all Rabbis attribute to the Messiah.  One of His names is -- MIGHTY God!  Here is a passage -- a son born -- yet called MIGHTY GOD.

 

A side note, the word increase has the most unique word.  The word is l'marbeh -- it's not that the word is unique -- but the way it's spelled is unique.  You see in Hebrew, the letter Mem -- there's 2 ways to spell it.  A normal mem -- which is used at the beginning or in the middle of a word -- and a mem-so-feet -- or a final mem -- which is only spelled at the END of a word.

 

In this case -- and it's the ONLY case this is shown in the entire BIBLE -- the mem in the middle of the word is spelled with a MEM-SO-FEET!  This goes AGAINST all the Hebraic grammatical rules.  If you're interested in learning a REALLY DEEP understanding of this -- I'll be happy to share -- but it's literally pages of material hidden in his unique spelling of this word.  But in a nutshell, the Rabbis understand the uniqueness of this child -- who is also divine and it's hidden in the Hebrew!

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When I saw your post last night, I wanted to respond quickly, however there's so much to go through it wasn't going to take a few minutes.  Last night was Lag B'Omer and my kids were off having a grand time burning wood!  And for the first time in a while, my wife and I had a nice date night without kids and any guests here in Israel.  So refreshing!  :)

 

As I read through your post, I couldn't help but think -- Are you really trying to instruct me on Hebrew?  I could understand an Israeli scholar in the land -- or someone that is absolutely fluent in Hebrew, but you do know that I've been a pastor in Israel for 13 years now?  One of the main issues that I deal with is the deity of Yeshua -- why?  Because it's a SALVATIONAL ISSUE!

 

Do you know what a counterfeit is?  A counterfeit can ONLY exist if there's the REAL deal!  And a counterfeit ONLY COMES AFTER the real thing!   And the counterfeit is only created by a COUNTERFEITER -- someone that is trying to counterfeit the REAL.

 

If a counterfeit doctrine would appear -- it would be created by the counterfeiter -- to make sure that those following the counterfeiter can NEVER make it to the REAL thing!  Remember that SATAN quoted Scripture to the Lord but he left half truths! 

 

For example, in Matthew 4:5

 

Mat 4:5  Then the devil took him to the holy city and set him on the pinnacle of the temple
Mat 4:6  and said to him, "If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down, for it is written, "'He will command his angels concerning you,' and "'On their hands they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone.'"

 

What did Satan leave out?

 

Psa 91:11  For he will command his angels concerning you to guard you in all your ways.

 

So if the counterfeiter has a purpose -- its to MAKE sure he can SELL his counterfeit -- while at the same time prevent those from the Lord -- because Satan comes as an "angel of light!"

 

2 Cor 11:14  And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

 

The purpose of the counterfeit is to MAKE sure that those following the counterfeiter never make it to the Kingdom of God -- because his purpose is to deceive -- and deceive even using Scripture with half-truths, or with thoughts -- Did God really say?

 

And with Scripture since you're dealing with a "translation" you're looking at 'translators' who for one reason or another make mistakes -- perhaps not purposely -- but nevertheless it happens.  The dangerous thing is when egregious errors take place that prevent those from seeing the Kingdom of God!  This is why the Watchtower is so dangerous -- because they are preventing people from reaching the Kingdom of God -- by denying the deity of Jesus (Yeshua) -- you fail to recognize that there is NO SAVIOR but YHVH.

 

Isa 43:10  "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.
Isa 43:11  I, I am the LORD, and besides me there is no savior.
Isa 43:12  I declared and saved and proclaimed, when there was no strange god among you; and you are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and I am God.

 

If you are going to debate Hebrew with me, please don't use Watchtower references -- they can't even spell the name of their organization properly!  Do you know how the J was introduced into the Bible?  In Latin there was no J till later on, and then when the German translations came forth -- they used their letter J -- because it has a Y sound in German -- to try and imitate the Yud sound -- the Y sound of God's name -- YHVH.

 

Think for yourself my friend!  What happened to believers for the first 1800 years before the Watchtower ever existed?  And what about the 144,000 that are sealed?  They are all sealed JEWS!

 

Did not Jesus warn his followers -- there would be FALSE CHRISTS in the last days.  What's the purpose of a false Christ -- or a false religion -- it's a COUNTERFEIT by the COUNTERFEITER to send people to HELL.  Oh but don't worry about Hell -- cause it's not really what God said it was!  Do you see the deception?  What a grand scheme of the enemy!

 

Now that I've gotten that off my chest -- I'll break down your post point by point!
 

This is a main point that is imperative to understand -- because it's a SALVATIONAL issue!

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Then by your methodology Moses in Exodus 7:1. God said to Moses: “See, I have made thee a god

[ELOHIM] to Pharaoh.” ...Moses must therefore be a trinity also. Moses the God, Moses God the Son and Moses the holy spirit

In this passage, and you can look throughout Scriptures the term elohim can also reference gods.  I don't know the exact number off the top of my head, but I venture to say its used perhaps 100 times in the little g fashion.

 

For example, in Exodus 20:2  "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.

Exo 20:3  You shall have no other gods before me." 

 

The word for other gods -- is the same word elohim.

 

The thought process is basically the Lord is saying is that I am the ELOHIM of ELOHIMs and there will be no other elohims before me.   For example in Deut 1017.

 

Deu 10:17  For the LORD (YHVH) your God (Elohim) is God (Elohim) of gods (Elohim) and Lord (Adonai) of lords (Adonai), the great, the mighty, and the awesome God (El), who is not partial and takes no bribe.

 

If you were going to reference the Moses passage, you can also reference how Moses was "elohim" to Aaron as well.

 

Exo 4:16  He shall speak for you to the people, and he shall be your mouth, and you shall be as God to him.

 

Moses is "elohim" to Pharoah because Moses is standing as God's representative in the court of Pharaoh. As you cited in Exodus 7:1  And the LORD said to Moses, "See, I have made you like God (elohim) to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet.

 

In both instances he is LIKE God -- and stands before Pharoah as God's representative in both instances.

 

But Moses is a type of the Messiah. 

 

For example, in Deuteronomy 18:15, "The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brothers—it is to him you shall listen—"

 

In ancient Egypt, as well as in the Roman empire of which Jesus appeared, they believed that God was in Egypt's case was Pharoah, and in Rome's case the Emperor was God.  In both cases, God was establishing that He in fact was "Elohim of Elohims". 

 

In Moses case, the 10 plagues were a direct assault against the Egyptian gods -- to which Pharoah knew that Moses was God's instrument -- that to Egyptian mindset -- a direct assault as the Pharoah's deity -- as Moses proved that God is the Elohim of Elohims!

 

If you study out the life of Moses, you'll see how he was a type of the Messiah to come!

 

The comparisons are many for example, Moses and Jesus were both Jews, sent by God, born under foreign rule, threatened by wicked kings, both were initially rejected by the Jews, criticized by their families, knew God "face to face", both fasted for 40 days, mediators of a covenant (Moses the Old and Jesus the New), Moses sent 12 spies -- Jesus sent 12 disciples, both came after 400 years of silence, both offered to die on behalf of the people's sins.  I'm sure there is more -- but that's what I could think of -- off the top of my head.

 

So if you truly study out the passage you referenced, you'd notice that Moses is a prototype of the Promised Messiah to come!

 

Luk 9:30  And behold, two men were talking with him, Moses and Elijah,

Luk 9:31  who appeared in glory and spoke of his departure, which he was about to accomplish at Jerusalem.

Luk 9:32  Now Peter and those who were with him were heavy with sleep, but when they became fully awake they saw his glory and the two men who stood with him.

Luk 9:33  And as the men were parting from him, Peter said to Jesus, "Master, it is good that we are here. Let us make three tents, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah"—not knowing what he said.

Luk 9:34  As he was saying these things, a cloud came and overshadowed them, and they were afraid as they entered the cloud.

Luk 9:35  And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is my Son, my Chosen One; listen to him!"

 

I'll post the importance of understanding the "UNIQUE SON" in later!

 

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So the correct rendering of Isaiah 9:6 is as follows

For a child is born to us, a son is given to us, and is called Wonder of the Counselor, the Judge of the Mighty God - [Jesus the Prince of Peace.]

That's about as bad as a translation as you can make.  I'm not sure where you get your Hebrew understanding, but clearly not what the text is saying.

 

If you brought that translation to a Jewish Rabbi, he'd quickly correct you in a heartbeat!

 

The term for ALMIGHTY God is El-Gibbor -- and EL -- is the name of God, and Gibbor can be translated as Mighty or Warrior.

 

As far as the comma is concerned, it could be termed as Wonderful Counselor -- there is no commas in Hebrew and the translators added commas -- and in this case I've seen many translations that remove the comma between the two words and it's a technical issue dealing with a comma.

 

Again, the subtlety to try and remove the divinity of the Savior of the world -- because there is NO SAVIOR except YHVH!

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As we continue our study, we see that it says clearly that the LORD of hosts REIGNS from Mount Zion.

 

Isaiah 24:23  Then the moon will be confounded and the sun ashamed, for the LORD of hosts reigns on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, and his glory will be before his elders.

 

Watch this closely!

 

Psalms 2:1  Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain?
Psa 2:2  The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD and against his Anointed, saying,

 

The word anointed in Hebrew is the word Meshiach -- or Messiah in English.

 

Psa 2:3  "Let us burst their bonds apart and cast away their cords from us."
Psa 2:4  He who sits in the heavens laughs; the Lord holds them in derision.
Psa 2:5  Then he will speak to them in his wrath, and terrify them in his fury, saying,
Psa 2:6  "As for me, I have set my King on Zion, my holy hill."

 

So the Lord sets HIS KING on ZION!  But the Lord of Hosts reigns from Zion -- Isaiah 24:23.

 

Psa 2:7  I will tell of the decree: The LORD said to me, "You are my Son; today I have begotten you.
Psa 2:8  Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage, and the ends of the earth your possession.
Psa 2:9  You shall break them with a rod of iron and dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel."
Psa 2:10  Now therefore, O kings, be wise; be warned, O rulers of the earth.
Psa 2:11  Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
Psa 2:12  Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and you perish in the way, for his wrath is quickly kindled. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.

 

So who is the KING that sits on Zion -- it's the SON of God -- the MESSIAH as declared in Psalm 2:2.

 

The King is none other than Jesus (Yeshua) -- and He is also the LORD of Hosts -- again the plurality of a God -- who is also ECHAD -- ONENESS!

 

Hebrews 1:8  But of the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.

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Yes I am, you are consistently ignoring how Hebrew verbs dictate the meaning of ELOHIM to be singular

And Elohim is SINGULAR -- yet PLURAL.  Do you not see that's how I responded in several posts?  It's ONE God, yet still has MULTIPLE understandings.  I never denied the SINGULARITY of Elohim -- I have always stated that there's MORE to it -- because of the plural nature of the "elohim".

 

Deut. 6:4  Hear, O Israel: The LORD (YHVH) our God (Elohim) is one (Echad) LORD (YHVH):

 

Elohim is ECHAD -- ONENESS.  As I stated before, a man shall cleave to his wife and they shall become ECHAD -- ONE.  They are ONE -- yet 2 people!  I have repeated that OVER and OVER again.

 

Think about it.  Jesus is not the HEAD of God -- He is the ARM of God -- can you grab that concept in your mind?
 
Just as we are tripart beings as Paul points out in 1 Thessalonians 5:23 "1Th 5:23  And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."
 
Just as Satan tries to counterfeit the triunity of God, "Revelation 16:13  And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
 
I have never violated a rule of Hebrew for the verb makes the understanding of a singular God -- yet the --im suffix shows a plurality!  
 
Re-read every post that I have written and you'll see that I've repeated this same thing over and over again!  I started with this concept on post and it's been repeated almost verbatim on posts, and so far.
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And yet, you persist in showing its plurality to support the trinity.

Because it's written that way!  How can I deny the fact that's a PLURAL word -- and yet is set in a singular fashion!

 

 

Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament, Strong's Hebrew Dictionary and The Soncino Talmud, The Babylonian Talmud, Seder Nezikin, Sanhedrin, 94a, translated by Dr. I. Epstein, you telling me they wrong?

No I'm telling you that the translation that you created...

 

 

For a child is born to us, a son is given to us, and is called Wonder of the Counselor, the Judge of the Mighty God - [Jesus the Prince of Peace.]

is in error.  Can you provide which translation you find this in?  Out of curiosity -- if it is truly this way -- there should be a point of reference or at least a translation that I can view online that you draw this conclusion from.

 

 

(Please don’t under estimate me again – One thing I have a talent for is research, please stop placing yourself above me with Hebrew grammar, I find it actually demeaning)

This was never my intent.  And for this I apologize.  I study the Hebrew -- I deal with Hebrew and when someone tries to change Scripture in such a fashion I find it offensive.  This is why I responded in the way I did.  I certainly don't demean you -- and if I did I would never have accept your request to discuss the multifaceted nature of God.

 

 

Please lets not disintegrate this debate in playing the person and not the game just because you cant answer some of the questions, interestlying you and the watchtowers have the same problem and that’s what to do with the Messiah.

What problem do I have with what to do with the Messiah?  The Scriptural evidence is overwhelming that YHVH the redeemer is in fact the promised Messiah who came -- and who is coming once again! 

 

There's many instances when YHVH appeared to men -- so they saw the pre-incarnate Messiah that was promised!  Abraham, Jacob, Gideon, Manoah (Samson's mother), and Moses. 

 

 

thy throne, GIVEN OF GOD, endureth for ever and ever: the sceptre of equity is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

 

They throne, Given OF God (THEOS - Singular), , endureth for ever and ever,

In Greek there is no word that shows the 'plurality' of God -- this is why its shown in the singular fashion.  However this doesn't change the HEBREW.

 

Psa 45:6  Your throne, O God [ELOHIM], is forever and ever. The scepter of your kingdom is a scepter of uprightness;

 

And it doesn't change the fact that the author of Hebrews attributes this passage to the SON!

 

Heb 1:8  But of the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.

 

So in this passage the author of Hebrews says to the SON -- YOUR THRONE, O GOD!  And watch how it aligns with Psalm 2!  There is NO ONE going to sit on the throne of Zion except YHVH!

 

Ask yourself the question, if God is a jealous God -- and there's no other worship to be given except to God -- why does God say -- Kiss the Son?  In Hebrew that's reverential worship given to the SON!

 

 

Is rendered false as employing Jesus is God, when Paul was NOT indicating as such, this also debunks your pre-existance.

 

huh?

 

 

That’s not a trinity that’s a quadrinity - Unclean spirits, beast, dragon, false prophet

I suppose you could say the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit along with His Angels if you wanted to show the correlation between the heavenly and demonic realms.

 

Do you recognize that you have not addressed the YHVH as KING of Israel -- and He sits a man on the throne of David forever -- and it's connection to Psalm 2?  It's so perfectly CLEAR in the Scriptures.  Just read the Scriptures!

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