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does God actually forgive?


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Hi Willa, yes there are words like redemption and ransom. The prevailing theory of the Atonement in the Early Church was Ransom. Are you asserting that it is not a payment for sins, but a Payment to Satan?

Even the popular Penal Theory holds the ransom as a by-product of the Atonement, and not the primary means of Atonement. The question is... who or Who is paid? What are they "paid?" Why doesn't the Bible tell us if that is true?

Jeremiah speaks of ransom this way: "For the Lord hath redeemed Jacob, and ransomed him from the hand of him that was stronger than he." 31:11.

Was Satan paid a ransom? Or was Jacob ransomed from the hand of him?  Not a "payment" but a redemption?

Secondly, the Greek can be read as, "Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a Ransom for many. Or to give his life a Ransom instead of many. 

The "cost" is his life.  Was it a "payment" for a predetermined number? or a "cost" as a provision for many? If this were a literal "payment," the Person/person  being "paid" would have likely been defined.

If, as would imagine, you would prefer your concept of "payment," then will you accept the inevitable result of that payment? Is that result Biblical? I believe that there is a strong reason why "payment" is never stated in Scripture; it is because salvation is not a commercial transaction.

If you would like to follow the payment down to what we have to accept if tit is true, we can discuss these areas.   

 

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Blessings nonamenight

    WE have not seen you in a while since you asked this question......it seems the Thread has gotten off Topic a bit,I believe everyone agrees that "yes" we are forgiven.........did you get the information you were looking for?                             With love-in Christ,Kwik

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Greetings Kwikphilly,

I do agree with Willa.....to compare Gods Word to mans penal theory is indeed "logical ",it stands to reason in our finite minds

 

An oft repeated teaching can be mistaken for Scripture, and people can be unaware that it is not. I fully understand that the vast majority of Christians only know the Penal Theory as their only understanding of the Atonement. I believe that it is simple to explain to the Western mind, through Western Law, all of which the Bible was never centered in. One thing that I do know, it is easier to Westernize the Gospel to Western people. The question is, is it Biblical and true?

It has only been around for about 400 years. Did the Atonement change? Or did “logic” intervene and correct a deficiency? While I agree that our minds are finite, it is no excuse to ignore what we are told about the Atonement of Christ. We certainly only see in part. One example is sacrifice. We know that God demands sacrifice, but we never told what exactly a sacrifice does for God.

As for “logic,” I find the Penal Theory to be illogical. It’s good logic to a degree if you take it where it was invented to take you; down the road of Hyper-Calvinism. I will show a bit of that dilemma in response to your following quote:

 

Yes, I am certainly contending for the same point! But in light of the Theory at hand, and the intent of its development, can I chase this bunny down a few holes?

First, I believe that Salvation is by grace through faith in Christ Jesus, but the inevitable intent and design of the Penal theory suggests that the payment was made in time. It occurred at a specific moment on the Cross of Christ. At that moment the “payment” was made. Who was it made for? The Elect! And only the elect. We can do nothing. Heaven or Hell is determined at that moment. Faith really does not activate the Atonement, because it was finished 2,000 years ago. God will not be denied what He has paid for.

Secondly, does this “gospel” not really believe that we are saved by “payment” through “fate” determined by God? Now even for the Calvinist that would agree with the intent of the Theory, they would not probably like the inevitable conclusion it results in.

It does not play well with Scripture, and certainly does not logically arrive at where most Evangelicals are in their beliefs. But can we pick and choose? Would it then be logical?

Please do tell me what it is because I honestly don't see one except whether or not the Scriptures actually do say "paid" & what was the other one, can't seem to find your other reply? Oh,"punishment".....the actual question of the OP ,......sure sounds like punishment to me

Punishment, the second bunny hole!

I would take it that the vast number of people here believe in the Deity of Christ and the Trinity. Can God divide Himself? Can two Persons of the Trinity separate from and Punish a part of Itself?  Can the Essence of Who God is, survive this separation? Or if you do not believe separation, how can Jesus become sin, and be punished, and still be existing in that moment… Deity?

Once again I would ask, how does this meet the standard set of being logical?

God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself... 2 Cor. 5:19.

Was the Cross a scene of division, punishment, wrath and separation? Or was it a scene of Unity, suffering, love and reconciliation?

Are we willing to follow where Penal Substitution inevitably goes? Is there Grace? Is there really Mercy? Is there actually Forgiveness? None of which are necessary, and are actually contrary to Penal Substitution.  

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On 5/20/2015 at 4:50 AM, nonamenight88 said:

Thanks to everyone who has responded to me. You have been a great help. I think now I have a good understanding of this.

This thread is almost a year old, and I think the OP has had his questioned answered.

Since the seekers forum has a specific purpose of preaching the gospel to seekers, I am closing the thread, and if someone wants to continue where it has led, they should do so, in a doctrinal area of the forum. Thanks.

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