Watchman Nee's Understanding of the Rapture

[missmuffet]

 

Watchman Nee's teachings make a lot of sense as I read them.  I had never heard of him before. 

I'm surprised that you have not heard of Watchman Nee.  He has written many books and much of his teaching is quite scriptural, but the one about the Rapture does NOT make a lot of sense.

 

His reasons for belief in a partial Rapture before the Great Tribulation and another Rapture after the Great Tribulation are not very convincing.  Many things which he says can be easily refuted, so Watchman Nee's theory (with all due respect) is "full of holes".   

 

For example he says that nowhere does it say that the Holy Spirit will be removed before the Great Tribulation.  While literally that may be so, we need to pull all the Scriptures together.  2 Thess 2:6,7 clearly states that the Restrainer of Satan will be "taken out of the way" so that the Antichrist (the Man of Sin, the Son of Perdition, that Wicked) can take control of this earth and actually sit in the Temple at Jerusalem calling himself "God". 

 

There is only one Restrainer powerful enough to restrain Satan's malice and activity on earth -- God the Holy Spirit [those who claim that the Restrainer is Michael the Archangel forget that even Michael dared not bring railing accusation against the Devil and said "the LORD rebuke thee" (Jude 9)]. 

 

Once the Holy Spirit is taken "out of the way" (which can only mean returns to Heaven) God will allow Satan (through the Beast) to take full control of this earth for 3 1/2 years (Rev 13:5-8).  And the reason why the Great Tribulation comes upon the earth is because of the Abomination of Desolation, as Christ prophesied (Mt 24:15-22). 

 

So when we connect all this, the absence of the Holy Spirit from this earth is connected through the Antichrist to the Great Tribulation (God's wrath against the ungodly).   And if indeed the Church goes through the Great Tribulation, then THE ENTIRE CHURCH WOULD BE BEHEADED (Rev 20:4).  Regardless of whether a segment of the Church is saved before the Tribulation, this cannot possibly be "the Blessed Hope" spoken of by Paul. The whole point of 1 Thess 4 & 5 is that the Church is "not appointed to wrath, but to obtain salvation".

 

And to claim that people cannot get saved during the Great Tribulation if the Holy Spirit is absent does not conform to Scripture either.  There were many OT saints being saved for thousands of years until Pentecost, and the Holy Spirit had not been poured out as yet (as seen at Pentecost).  People were also being saved during the earthly ministry of Christ.  The same will be true during the Great Tribulation.  There will be Tribulation Saints and they will be beheaded for their testimony, but the Tribulation Saints are not the entire Church.  Even Rev 7:9-14 can be interpreted differently without doing violence to Scripture.

 

I believe that there will be a rapture before the tribulation.Then those who are not raptured will go into the tribulation.Those who come to Christ and survive the tribulation,which will be very few,will go into the 1000 year Millennium.

[Marilyn C]

I have read Watchman Nee`s books & appreciated his God given wisdom. However I agree with Ezra on this point that there is not a partial rapture, catching away & later another. When the Body of Christ is completed, then that purpose is finished. Believers are set in the Body by the Holy Spirit, each in their place & when we come to the unity of Faith then we will be taken to our eternal setting. We then begin to reign with Christ.
 
The Holy Spirit does not leave the earth, as He is omnipresent, however He will not be forming people into the Body of Christ but He will still draw them to God. The people who go through the tribulation & turn to God, repenting of their sins, will be part of the nations that walk in the light of the New Jerusalem.

 

Marilyn.

[Ezra]

The Holy Spirit does not leave the earth, as He is omnipresent, however He will not be forming people into the Body of Christ but He will still draw them to God.

Unless you have clear Scripture to assert that "the Holy Spirit does not leave the earth" it will be preferable to believe what the Bible actually says (2 Thess 2:6,7):

And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

 

"Withholdeth", "letteth" and "let" can be misinterpreted unless we go back to the Greek and determine the current meaning of those words.

Withholdeth = Gk katecho = hold down, to seize, to hold fast, to withhold, to restrain

Letteth (let) = Gk katecho = hold down, to seize, to hold fast, to withhold, to restrain

 

What is Paul revealing here (2 Thess 2:1-12) and why is it necessary for God the Holy Spirit to be "taken out of the way"?

1. The Day of the LORD (not the Day of Christ) must be preceded by certain events (v. 2):

2. The first event is the Great Apostasy of Christendom (v. 3)

3. The second event is the removal of the Holy Spirit from the earth (vv 6,7) which is simultaneous with the Rapture (since the Church is indwelt by the Holy Spirit)

4. The third event is the revelation of the Antichrist (vv 3-6)

5. The fourth event is the strong delusion sent by God (vv 11-12)

6. The fifth event is the deception of the whole world by Satan (vv. 8-9)

7. The final event is the Day of the LORD (the Great Tribulation) (v 2).

 

As long as the Holy Spirit is on earth, (1) the Church is being gathered in (2) Satan is being restrained and (3) the strong delusion is absent.  It is impossible for all the inhabitants of the earth to be under a strong delusion (so that they believe Satan's lies completely) as long as the Holy Spirit is there to convince, and to convict, and to draw men to Christ.  However, when the Holy Spirit removes His powerful restraint on Satan, the whole world will worship the Beast (possessed by the Devil)  and be under his power for 3 1/2 years.  This has nothing to do with God's omnipresence but with God's judgment on the ungodly and those who refused to believe the truth and the Gospel.

[Last Daze]

 

The Holy Spirit does not leave the earth, as He is omnipresent, however He will not be forming people into the Body of Christ but He will still draw them to God.

Unless you have clear Scripture to assert that "the Holy Spirit does not leave the earth" it will be preferable to believe what the Bible actually says (2 Thess 2:6,7):

And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

 

"Withholdeth", "letteth" and "let" can be misinterpreted unless we go back to the Greek and determine the current meaning of those words.

Withholdeth = Gk katecho = hold down, to seize, to hold fast, to withhold, to restrain

Letteth (let) = Gk katecho = hold down, to seize, to hold fast, to withhold, to restrain

 

What is Paul revealing here (2 Thess 2:1-12) and why is it necessary for God the Holy Spirit to be "taken out of the way"?

1. The Day of the LORD (not the Day of Christ) must be preceded by certain events (v. 2):

2. The first event is the Great Apostasy of Christendom (v. 3)

3. The second event is the removal of the Holy Spirit from the earth (vv 6,7) which is simultaneous with the Rapture (since the Church is indwelt by the Holy Spirit)

4. The third event is the revelation of the Antichrist (vv 3-6)

5. The fourth event is the strong delusion sent by God (vv 11-12)

6. The fifth event is the deception of the whole world by Satan (vv. 8-9)

7. The final event is the Day of the LORD (the Great Tribulation) (v 2).

 

As long as the Holy Spirit is on earth, (1) the Church is being gathered in (2) Satan is being restrained and (3) the strong delusion is absent.  It is impossible for all the inhabitants of the earth to be under a strong delusion (so that they believe Satan's lies completely) as long as the Holy Spirit is there to convince, and to convict, and to draw men to Christ.  However, when the Holy Spirit removes His powerful restraint on Satan, the whole world will worship the Beast (possessed by the Devil)  and be under his power for 3 1/2 years.  This has nothing to do with God's omnipresence but with God's judgment on the ungodly and those who refused to believe the truth and the Gospel.

 

 

The abyss is a prison.  A prison is a place of restraint.

 

And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he threw him into the abyss,  Revelation 20:2

When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,  Revelation 20:7

 

We know from Revelation 17:8 that the beast, who is a fallen angel, is released from the abyss.  Until he is released, he is being restrained in prison.  Until he is released, there will be no continuation of the fourth kingdom, no 10 leaders, and no false prophet.  Why not?  Because he is the prince of it.  He brings it to pass.  He can't do that while he's in angel jail.

 

So the "what" that is doing the restraining is the abyss.  That's what the abyss does.  It's a prison.

 

As far as "who" is doing the restraining, I think we get a clue from Daniel.

 

“Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time;  Daniel 12:1

 

The implication here is that until Michael arose, he was restraining the forces of evil.  We know he does that because of this verse:

 

However, I will tell you what is inscribed in the writing of truth. Yet there is no one who stands firmly with me against these forces except Michael your prince.  Daniel 10:21

 

It makes more sense to me to identify the restraining "who" and "what" as things that are already known to restrain, like the abyss...and Michael.  I can't find any scriptures that say the role of the Holy Spirit is to restrain Satan.  Can you?  Or is it just an assumption?

[Ezra]

  

It makes more sense to me to identify the restraining "who" and "what" as things that are already known to restrain, like the abyss...and Michael.  I can't find any scriptures that say the role of the Holy Spirit is to restrain Satan.  Can you?  Or is it just an assumption?

 Other than 2 Thess 2, you will find indirectly how God the Holy Spirit restrains Satan:

 

Isa 59:19

So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.

 

Zech 3:1-5

¹ And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.

² And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

³ Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.

⁴ And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.

⁵ And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the LORD stood by.

 

John 16:7-11

⁷ Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. [The Comforter is the Holy Ghost]

⁸ And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

⁹ Of sin, because they believe not on me;

¹⁰ Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

¹¹Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. [The prince of this world is Satan]

[Marilyn C]

Hi Ezra,

Have you considered what the Holy Spirit is doing in the tribulation.

1. Sealing the bond-servants. (Rev. 7: 2 & 3)
2. Brought salvation to the great multitude. (Rev. 7: 14)
3. Prophecy. (Rev. 10: 11, 11: 3)
4. Miraculous power. (Rev. 11: 5 & 6)
5. Testimony. (Rev. 11: 7)
6. Resurrection – breath of life. (Rev. 11: 11)
7. Glory to God. (Rev. 11: 13)
8. Overcoming. (Rev. 12: 11)
9. `If any one has an ear, let him hear.` (the Spirit) (Rev. 13: 9)
10. Purchased first-fruits. (Rev. 14: 4)
11. “Yes,” says the Spirit,..... (Rev. 14: 13)
12. ` And he carried me away in the Spirit...` (Rev. 17: 3)


Marilyn.
 

[wingnut-]

I don't agree with his conclusions as to there being two raptures, but I do agree with the Holy Spirit not being the restrainer.  I am in agreement with LastDaze as far as seeing Michael a much more likely candidate.  Specifically, in regards to the argument of the Holy Spirit being removed, don't forget what Jesus said in John 14.

 

 

John 14:¹⁵ “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

¹⁶ I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; ¹⁷ that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

¹⁸ “I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. ¹⁹ After a little while the world will no longer see Me, but you will see Me; because I live, you will live also. ²⁰ In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.

 

 

As long as there is one believer on this planet, the Holy Spirit is with that individual, and we know for certain that believers come out of the tribulation.

 

 

There is only one Restrainer powerful enough to restrain Satan's malice and activity on earth -- God the Holy Spirit

 

 

 

In regards to this specific argument from Ezra, I would ask what the below scripture qualifies as?

 

 

Revelation 20  Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. ² And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; ³ and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.

[Last Daze]

 

  

It makes more sense to me to identify the restraining "who" and "what" as things that are already known to restrain, like the abyss...and Michael.  I can't find any scriptures that say the role of the Holy Spirit is to restrain Satan.  Can you?  Or is it just an assumption?

 Other than 2 Thess 2, you will find indirectly how God the Holy Spirit restrains Satan:

 

Isa 59:19

So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.

 

Zech 3:1-5

¹ And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.

² And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

³ Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.

⁴ And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.

⁵ And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the LORD stood by.

 

John 16:7-11

⁷ Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. [The Comforter is the Holy Ghost]

⁸ And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

⁹ Of sin, because they believe not on me;

¹⁰ Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

¹¹Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. [The prince of this world is Satan]

 

 

This word sums up the difference in our views succinctly:

 

 

Other than 2 Thess 2, you will find indirectly how God the Holy Spirit restrains Satan:

 

 

I give precedence to what scripture directly says.  There are times when deductions and inferences and traditions help to understand but I never give them precedence over what is clearly stated.

[WilliamL]

I've saved this page to read more thoroughly offline. But as far as there being early and latter raptures, the former right at the beginning of the GT, the latter at the end of the GT, this is what I've long taught. The main body of the elect are raptured "after the tribulation" (Matt. 24:29), when Jesus comes in the clouds of heaven (:30), following the heavenly and earthly shakings of the 6th Seal = Matt. 24:29.

 

Brief summary of the earlier end time rapture:

    Rev. 12:1, 5  [John saw in a vision that] a Woman [the Ecclesia/Church/God's people] bore a Manchild who [is] to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her child [will be] caught up to God, and to his throne.
> Immediately after this (12:5), "the Woman fle[es] into the wilderness." Then Michael, his angels, and the Overcomers fight against and cast Satan and his angels out of heaven. Rev. 12:7-11
 
    Ex. 13:19  And Moses took the bones of Joseph with him [when the Israelites fled Egypt]...    Book of Jasher 80:62-63 And Moses hastened...to the river of   Egypt, and brought up from thence the coffin of Joseph and took it with him. The children of Israel also brought up...each man the coffins of his tribe.
 
    Matt. 27:52  [immediately after the death of Jesus], the graves were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were awakened...
> "Awakened [from death-sleep]" = egerthesan, another form of egeiro. These most righteous of the saints had their spirits enter into and awaken their dead bodies, but their bodies did not "come up out of the graves [until] after His resurrection." Matt. 25:53

 

    So. 1) Right after the "great cry" in Egypt began, many of Israel's dead, including the 12 Patriarchs, were 'raised from the dead,' in type. 2) Right after "women...bewailed and lamented" at the crucifixion (Luke 23:27), and "Jesus cried out with a loud voice" (Matt. 27:50), the elect of the saints were awakened from death, and soon after arose from their graves. 3) Right after Rev. 12's "Woman...with child cries, travailing in birth" (12:1-2), the Manchild(ren) will be born into immortal bodies, and thereafter will be caught up to heaven.

    Immediately after the above raisings of the dead, the Israelite Church fled out of Egypt; the Apostolic Church hid, then went to Galilee; and the Last Days Church will "flee into the wilderness."

 

YHWH's descent upon Mt. Sinai in clouds 53 days later, and His calling up of the elect of Israel into his Presence, corresponds to Christ's descent in the clouds to call up his elect of the Church, coming at some period of time after they have been in the wilderness. 

 

[ Rev. 6:5's birth of a ruling Manchild is often incorrectly presumed to refer to the birth of Jesus Christ. Promoters of this belief quote Psalm 2, which says the LORD’s “Anointed One” (Messiah), the LORD’s “Son,” “shall break (or, rule) them [the nations] with a rod of iron.” Ps. 2:2, 7, 9 This psalm truly does refer to Jesus Christ.       However, Jesus states in Revelation 2:26-27 that this same authority over the nations will hereafter also be granted to Overcomers from Christ’s Church:

“And he who overcomes, and keeps my works unto the end, to him will I give authority over the nations: ‘He shall rule them with a rod of iron…’ – as I also have received from my Father.”

In Rev. 4:1-2, John is taken up into heaven, and “show[n]…things which must take place after this”: that is, after that point in time. Everything John was shown thereafter was to come in the future, including the vision of the events seen in Rev. 12. Therefore, the birth of the Manchild of Rev. 12 cannot refer to Christ. It must refer to the Overcomers, as verses 10-11 specifically state:

“…the accuser [= Satan, verse 9] of our brethren…has been cast down [from heaven, 8-9]. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony…”]

[Ezra]

Hi Ezra,

Have you considered what the Holy Spirit is doing in the tribulation.

1. Sealing the bond-servants. (Rev. 7: 2 & 3)

2. Brought salvation to the great multitude. (Rev. 7: 14)

3. Prophecy. (Rev. 10: 11, 11: 3)

4. Miraculous power. (Rev. 11: 5 & 6)

5. Testimony. (Rev. 11: 7)

6. Resurrection – breath of life. (Rev. 11: 11)

7. Glory to God. (Rev. 11: 13)

8. Overcoming. (Rev. 12: 11)

9. `If any one has an ear, let him hear.` (the Spirit) (Rev. 13: 9)

10. Purchased first-fruits. (Rev. 14: 4)

11. “Yes,” says the Spirit,..... (Rev. 14: 13)

12. ` And he carried me away in the Spirit...` (Rev. 17: 3)

Marilyn.

 

Marilyn,

 

The only two Scripture which mention the Holy Spirit are the last two AND IN BOTH CASES HE IS IN HEAVEN or comes from Heaven.  In all the others you have assumed that the Holy Spirit as such is involved, but it is God (the triune Godhead) who is involved.

 

As to someone mentioning Michael again, I already pointed out that Jude tells us that Michael dared not bring railing accusation against the Devil.  When Michael does confront the Devil and his evil angels, it is in the company of the holy angels (Rev 12).  Without the assistance of his angels, Michael would not have prevailed.